Going to church on Saturday is NOT Sabbath-keeping. Here's why.

Ken Rank · Oct 16, 2018

bekkilyn said:
Maybe put this another way...

I believe that God (Jesus) chose to observe the laws of Moses while he was on the earth for the particular purpose he was on the earth, one part being to prove he fulfills the requirements of Messiah. So he probably didn't mix and match materials in his clothing, but if he did do so because he changed his mind about saving humanity after all during that time period, he still wouldn't have sinned because it would be impossible for him to do something that isn't in his nature to do. If it's in his nature to do something, then that something isn't a sin for him.

The first Adam came into this world without sin.
The second Adam came into this world without sin.
Both the first and second Adam were tempted by Satan.
The first Adam gave into the temptation and sinned, the result was death

The second Adam did not give into temptation, died without sinning (he never broke a command) and the result was life for any and all that he chooses to give life to.

Again, God's law is perfect because God is perfect and He is the author. If you can't comprehend how, or see it as a burden, or a hardship... it is you who needs a clearer lens to see through, respectfully. Because God is the author and God is perfect.

Sin is breaking the commandments. 1 John 3:4 speaks in non-abstract language... "whoever commits sin breaks the law because sin is the breaking of the law." Messiah didn't steal, he kept the Sabbath, he didn't lay with a man, he honored his parents, he wore tzitziot (fringes), he did not sin... he did not break a commandment.

If he broke any of God's commandments, he died with sin. That is a simple straight forward fact. So if your theology has him breaking commandments, you really need to revisit that.

Blessings.

bekkilyn · Oct 16, 2018

Ken Rank said:
SIGH... I don't put limits on God, I study Scripture. And the 613 commandments, most of which do not even apply to us today, are God's law. The Pharisees (later the rabbis) added to them with various decrees making it a burden no man could bear. But Moses wrote down all the do's and don'ts and they define what is and is not sin. As a man, I do not lay with a man as I would a woman because that is sin. It isn't one of the 10, yet Moses did write that down and it remains a sin to this day. Working on the Sabbath is a sin. Messiah did not work on the Sabbath... he healed but healing is God's work and God's work (spiritual and physical edification) is God's work. His disciples picked and ate... not a sin. Not one verse in the Torah says we can't do that. The Pharisees called it sin but it was their man made added decree that was broken... not a commandment of God.

Lastly, you know polyester didn't exist then and I realize you are trying to make a point. But I caution you, do not mock this. You might not agree, that's fine, I really don't care, I mean it. But if you are wrong, and you are mocking the Law and what Messiah may or may not have done... then that is blasphemy as blasphemy is something "spoken against God" and this forum is a form of speaking. "

God is perfect and does not make mistakes. He gave the law to Moses and therefore God is the author of the law. And if God is the author... it is perfect even if you don't understand how. Best to just not say anything, then to risk saying something that could be taken as blasphemy, again, should you be wrong on this. And seeing we haven't been perfected yet, we are imperfect and more than capable of mistake. Err on the side of caution, I would suggest.

Blessings.
Ken

Well walking on eggshells in literal fear of punishment lest I make the slightest mistake (what child doesn't?) is not how I needed to behave for my human father, and isn't the way we need to behave for our heavenly father, who loves us far more than any human father ever could.

You seem fixed on the idea that the laws God gave to the Israelites is God's law, but they were only shadows of things to come. "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. " (Hebrews 10:1)

God *true* laws are those that make up the nature of his being, i.e. God *cannot* sin. God *cannot* be evil, etc.

God *can* choose to work on the seventh day and not sin against himself because he didn't choose not to work on that day because he is *incapable* of it, but because it was his choice and he is allowed to decide otherwise any time he wants.

Do you see the difference? God *cannot* be evil and still be God, but God *could* have chosen to do something else on day seven. One is God's law that shadow laws point to, and the other is God's law that he gives to particular people for particular purposes.

This is not blasphemy. This is just basic to God's nature. Of course, you are free to believe that God could choose to sin or be evil or some other thing against his very nature and still be God, but that's just not part of my own statement of faith so I don't see myself changing my beliefs to thinking that God is good only some of the time rather than all the time.

bekkilyn · Oct 16, 2018

Ken Rank said:
The first Adam came into this world without sin.
The second Adam came into this world without sin.
Both the first and second Adam were tempted by Satan.
The first Adam gave into the temptation and sinned, the result was death

The second Adam did not give into temptation, died without sinning (he never broke a command) and the result was life for any and all that he chooses to give life to.

Again, God's law is perfect because God is perfect and He is the author. If you can't comprehend how, or see it as a burden, or a hardship... it is you who needs a clearer lens to see through, respectfully. Because God is the author and God is perfect.

Sin is breaking the commandments. 1 John 3:4 speaks in non-abstract language... "whoever commits sin breaks the law because sin is the breaking of the law." Messiah didn't steal, he kept the Sabbath, he didn't lay with a man, he honored his parents, he wore tzitziot (fringes), he did not sin... he did not break a commandment.

If he broke any of God's commandments, he died with sin. That is a simple straight forward fact. So if your theology has him breaking commandments, you really need to revisit that.

Blessings.

Adam could choose to sin, but Adam was not God. Jesus is God and therefore *cannot* choose to sin and still be God. His testing in the desert by Satan proved that Jesus was exactly who he is. God in the flesh, both fully human and fully divine.

However, I'm not sure that you are getting the point that had Jesus as God been capable of choosing to wear two types of materials and actually did so, it would not be sinning because as God, he would be incapable of sinning. So therefore, it would be our interpretation of that law of Moses that would be wrong.

Erik Nelson · Oct 16, 2018

everyone acknowledges that the first century Christians gave gentile converts to the Church extreme latitude on FOOD

the Council of Jerusalem in about 50ad allowed gentiles almost all foods

if there is that much latitude on food laws, why not Sabbath laws, especially given that Jesus is lord of the Sabbath?

one point of confusion here is the distinction between Jewish and gentile Christians

JEWISH Christians have always had to keep the Law

but the Council of Jerusalem ruled that gentile converts into the Church did not have to first convert to Judaism... And then become Jewish Messianic Christians...

gentiles are allowed to jump right in, bypassing almost all of the law, in fact they only have to keep the commandments given to Noah in genesis 7-9

Sabbath is part of the Laws of Moses given 2000 years later to Israel alone

the Church has always held that gentiles are children of Noah but not of Israel... They are NOT the lost tribes

so all of this legalism applies only to Jewish Messianic Christians

JIMINZ · Oct 16, 2018

The keeping of the Law is of no consequence to us who are Born Again, just as the keeping of the Sabbath on the last day of the week is of no consequence either.

For we are not under the Law, but we live by Faith.

Rom 14:1-12
1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Is everyone weak in the Faith, or unlearned?

2Ti. 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 16, 2018

JIMINZ said:
The keeping of the Law is of no consequence to us who are Born Again, just as the keeping of the Sabbath on the last day of the week is of no consequence either.

For we are not under the Law, but we live by Faith.

Rom 14:1-12
1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Is everyone weak in the Faith, or unlearned?

2Ti. 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Now where in all of Romans 14 does it say it is talking about God's 4th commandment? Romans 14 is talking about days that men esteem over overs not days that God esteems over others. The topic is food connected to days men esteem over other days not God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures what it is not saying.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL. *ROMANS 11:16-27. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12.

JIMINZ · Oct 16, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Now where in all of Romans 14 does it say it is talking about God's 4th commandment? Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Now, just what (DAY) do you suppose he was actually speaking about in verses Rom.14:5,6? Thanksgiving?

Jesus said.
Mat. 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus therefore has kept the Law for us, and we who believe in Jesus, are in Jesus, therefore we too keep the Law as spoken of in Rom.14:5,6

LoveGodsWord · Oct 16, 2018

JIMINZ said:
Now, just what do you suppose (DAY) he was actually speaking about in verses Rom.14:5,6? Thanksgiving?

Jesus said.
Mat. 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus therefore has kept the Law for us, and we who believe in Jesus, are in Jesus, therefore we too keep the Law as spoken of in Rom.14:5,6

Jesus did not keep the law for us so that we are free to break it as he tells us in the same scriptures you part quoted...

MATTHEW 5:17-20
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Yep so Heaven and Earth have not passed away either has God's LAW.

As mentioned earlier where in all of Romans 14 does it say it is talking about God's 4th commandment? Romans 14 is talking about days that men esteem over overs not days that God esteems over others. The topic is food connected to days men esteem over other days not God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures what it is not saying.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

JIMINZ · Oct 17, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Jesus did not keep the law for us so that we are free to break it as he tells us in the same scriptures you part quoted...

MATTHEW 5:17-20
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Yep so Heaven and Earth have not passed away either has God's LAW.

As mentioned earlier where in all of Romans 14 does it say it is talking about God's 4th commandment? Romans 14 is talking about days that men esteem over overs not days that God esteems over others. The topic is food connected to days men esteem over other days not God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures what it is not saying.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

As I said before.

Rom 14:1
1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Your trying to establish your Theological beliefs, as though they were truth, they aren't.

have a good day.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 17, 2018

JIMINZ said:
As I said before.

Rom 14:1
1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Your trying to establish your Theological beliefs, as though they were truth, they aren't.

have a good day.

Not really. Your trying to read into the scriptures something it is honestly not saying. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Have a nice day too :wave:

Saint Steven · Oct 17, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
everyone acknowledges that the first century Christians gave gentile converts to the Church extreme latitude on FOOD

the Council of Jerusalem in about 50ad allowed gentiles almost all foods

if there is that much latitude on food laws, why not Sabbath laws, especially given that Jesus is lord of the Sabbath?

one point of confusion here is the distinction between Jewish and gentile Christians

JEWISH Christians have always had to keep the Law

but the Council of Jerusalem ruled that gentile converts into the Church did not have to first convert to Judaism... And then become Jewish Messianic Christians...

gentiles are allowed to jump right in, bypassing almost all of the law, in fact they only have to keep the commandments given to Noah in genesis 7-9

Sabbath is part of the Laws of Moses given 2000 years later to Israel alone

the Church has always held that gentiles are children of Noah but not of Israel... They are NOT the lost tribes

so all of this legalism applies only to Jewish Messianic Christians

That's interesting. I mostly agree.
When we talk about the law, we need to identify which law and who it is for.

Below is an interesting scripture in this regard. Especially the parenthetical statement in verses fourteen and fifteen. Where it speaks of the gentiles, who do not have the law, doing by nature things required by the law, their consciences bearing witness. This sounds like the law written on the heart, but seems to be referring to natural human conscience. Or should I say, God-given human conscience? What do you make of this?

Romans 2:13-15
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Saint Steven · Oct 17, 2018

JIMINZ said:
Now, just what (DAY) do you suppose he was actually speaking about in verses Rom.14:5,6? Thanksgiving?

Jesus said.
Mat. 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus therefore has kept the Law for us, and we who believe in Jesus, are in Jesus, therefore we too keep the Law as spoken of in Rom.14:5,6

"Thanksgiving?" lol -- Now that was funny.

Here's an FYI for everyone on this.

Have you ever seen this companion verse to Mat.5:17 ? (see below)
Everyone seems to just read over the phrase "or the prophets" in Mat.5:17.
Jesus extends that to include "and the Psalms", in the verse below. And then defines what it means. Which should be applied to Mat.5:17. It is not about the law at all. But rather about the fulfilling of the Messianic prophecies in the books of the Law, the books of the Prophets and the Psalms.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Saint Steven · Oct 17, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Jesus did not keep the law for us so that we are free to break it as he tells us in the same scriptures you part quoted...

MATTHEW 5:17-20
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Yep so Heaven and Earth have not passed away either has God's LAW.

As mentioned earlier where in all of Romans 14 does it say it is talking about God's 4th commandment? Romans 14 is talking about days that men esteem over overs not days that God esteems over others. The topic is food connected to days men esteem over other days not God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures what it is not saying.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th Commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Your post does not agree with "God's WORD". Scripture below.

Have you ever seen this companion verse to Mat.5:17 ? (see below)
Everyone seems to just read over the phrase "or the prophets" in Mat.5:17.
Jesus extends that to include "and the Psalms", in the verse below. And then defines what it means. Which should be applied to Mat.5:17. It is not about the law at all. But rather about the fulfilling of the Messianic prophecies in the books of the Law, the books of the Prophets and the Psalms.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Ken Rank · Oct 17, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
everyone acknowledges that the first century Christians gave gentile converts to the Church extreme latitude on FOOD

the Council of Jerusalem in about 50ad allowed gentiles almost all foods

if there is that much latitude on food laws, why not Sabbath laws, especially given that Jesus is lord of the Sabbath?

one point of confusion here is the distinction between Jewish and gentile Christians

JEWISH Christians have always had to keep the Law

but the Council of Jerusalem ruled that gentile converts into the Church did not have to first convert to Judaism... And then become Jewish Messianic Christians...

gentiles are allowed to jump right in, bypassing almost all of the law, in fact they only have to keep the commandments given to Noah in genesis 7-9

Sabbath is part of the Laws of Moses given 2000 years later to Israel alone

the Church has always held that gentiles are children of Noah but not of Israel... They are NOT the lost tribes

so all of this legalism applies only to Jewish Messianic Christians

I respect your position but don't agree with you on a couple of points. If the Acts 15 letter was all that was expected of gentiles... then would murdering your homosexual partner be permitted because that isn't included in the list? Now... I am obviously going to an extreme to make a point. If not doing what I mentioned, or not stealing, or not serving other gods for that matter, isn't included... then do we REALLY think the Acts 15 letter is a complete list? It can't be!

There is more going on here. In that day there were two schools of Pharisees, Beit Hillel and Beit Shamai. The school of Hillel was known for teaching the spirit of the law while the school of Shamai was known for teaching the letter of the law. Incidentally, Paul went to Beit Hillel, which is why we see him arguing for the spirit of the law against the letter of the law in some of his letters. But I digress....

Acts 15 starts in the first couple of verses with two Jewish men who come claiming the new converts (the new Christians) need to be circumcised in order to be saved... or part of the family of Israel. Paul immediately argues with them because he has had this argument 1000 times... these two men were from Beit Shamai. Here is how I know....

50 years before the Acts 15 Council, there was a debate between Hillel and Shamai. The debate was on what should be expected of a new proselyte (new convert) and the two men agree on some things but Shamai went to an extreme. Both agreed that one should abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality (sound familiar?). But Shamai went a step further, he insisted that the new proselyte also know all 613 commandments AND be circumcised from day 1. Now that wasn't the end... the new convert was then expected to go and learn as they moved forward in time. Shamai's position was accepted and became halacha or Jewish law (addition to God's law). Thus for 50 years, that is what a new convert needed to do.

So when Paul called the Council together, and they ruled, what they did was reverse a bad 50 year old decision that was unfair to a new believer. They went back to the same 4 things Hillel debated for, and these 4 things simply served as a starting point... the new believer was then expected to go and learn the rest as they moved forward in time. That's why the letter is followed with this:

Acts 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Moses (an idiomatic reference to the Torah or Law) is read in the synagogues every Sabbath. Point being, start with these 4 things and then go and hear the Word read and learn what else God expects of you. This is why, perhaps, we see Greeks in the synagogues on Sabbath:

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Erik Nelson · Oct 17, 2018

Saint Steven said:
"Thanksgiving?" lol -- Now that was funny.

Here's an FYI for everyone on this.

Have you ever seen this companion verse to Mat.5:17 ? (see below)
Everyone seems to just read over the phrase "or the prophets" in Mat.5:17.
Jesus extends that to include "and the Psalms", in the verse below. And then defines what it means. Which should be applied to Mat.5:17. It is not about the law at all. But rather about the fulfilling of the Messianic prophecies in the books of the Law, the books of the Prophets and the Psalms.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Think that means that Jesus? Acknowledged the Jewish Organization of the Old Testament. Into the 3 major sections of the laws of Moses, the prophetic ridings. And all other writings.

today, the Jews call that the TaNaKh = Torah Neviim Khetuvim or something like that

Apparently, the ordering of the books in the Old Testament was changed when the 72 Jewish scholars, translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek in the third century BC. The Septuagint organizes the writings differently, it reorganized the Jewish Old Testament to accord with Greek conceptions of literary genre.

Evidently, the Messiah acknowledged the original Hebrew Jewish. Organization of the Old Testament and its ordering of the books there, of.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 17, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Your post does not agree with "God's WORD". Scripture below.

Have you ever seen this companion verse to Mat.5:17 ? (see below)
Everyone seems to just read over the phrase "or the prophets" in Mat.5:17.
Jesus extends that to include "and the Psalms", in the verse below. And then defines what it means. Which should be applied to Mat.5:17. It is not about the law at all. But rather about the fulfilling of the Messianic prophecies in the books of the Law, the books of the Prophets and the Psalms.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Of course my post agrees with God's WORD. It was God's WORD that was posted. You are partially correct however. Matthew 5:17 is also about the prophetic BOOK of the LAW and I do not disagree as I have also been sharing the scriptures showing that the book of the Law was prophetic pointing to Jesus but the chapter context here is all the law including God's 10 commandments unless your trying to teach that animal sacrifices are still required after all Heaven and Earth have not passed away and Jesus even talks about the 10 commandments in the Chapter.

MATTHEW 5:17-29
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[21], You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22], But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[23], Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has ought against you;
[24], Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25], Agree with your adversary quickly, whiles you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
[26], Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out there, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
[27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
[28], But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
[29], And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Yep Jesus is certainly referencing the 10 Commandment applying them to the thoughts and feelings. Seems like we need a new heart because ours is broken. SIN originates in the heart, unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no wise enter into the Kingdom of heaven v20. Looks like we need a new heart what do you say?

............

NOTE: v17 is talking about ALL the TORAH this is God's LAW (10 Commandments and the Mosaic BOOK of the law) Jesus fulfilled God's 10 Commandments because he kept them perfectly. He fulfilled the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the covenant because all the Sanctuary services for remission of sin (animal sacrifices) and Levitical priesthood were prophetic and were fulfilled in Jesus revealing God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

However, v18-28 is talking about the LAW of RIGHTOUESNESS which is God's 10 Commandments.

PSLAMS 119:172 [172], My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness.

v20 Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. v21 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill v27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery

Yep from v18-28 the chapter context is the God's 10 commandments.

Jesus finishes by saying in v48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Hope this helps.

Ken Rank · Oct 17, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Think that means that Jesus? Acknowledged the Jewish Organization of the Old Testament. Into the 3 major sections of the laws of Moses, the prophetic ridings. And all other writings.

today, the Jews call that the TaNaKh = Torah Neviim Khetuvim or something like that

Apparently, the ordering of the books in the Old Testament was changed when the 72 Jewish scholars, translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek in the third century BC. The Septuagint organizes the writings differently, it reorganized the Jewish Old Testament to accord with Greek conceptions of literary genre.

Evidently, the Messiah acknowledged the original Hebrew Jewish. Organization of the Old Testament and its ordering of the books there, of.

Just an FYI... the Writings and the Psalms were not canonized until 90AD. The LXX was translated in 300BC. The order would have to be different because the canon was different at the time. The Psalms and Writings were obviously VERY highly regarded but they were "canon" at the time of the LXX and the order was done based on canon.

Ken Rank · Oct 17, 2018

Just some food for thought.

Many use Matthew 5:17 to mean the law has been done away with. However, I would submit that if "fulfilled" in that verse means "do away with," (or abolish) then the verse not only contradicts itself, but it contradicts the next two verses very plainly.

But in addition to that, if the word "fulfill" in the NT means "brought to completion, done away with, abolish" which is how I hear it preached often... then righteousness has been done away with!

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.

Obviously I don't believe this... I have a different definition of righteousness and I certainly have a different definition of pleroo (fulfill) but I wanted to throw this out for those of you who do see fulfill as abolish, to consider.

Blessings.
Ken

Saint Steven · Oct 17, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Of course my post agrees with God's WORD. It was God's WORD that was posted. You are partially correct however. Matthew 5:17 is also about the prophetic BOOK of the LAW and I do not disagree as I have also been sharing the scriptures showing that the book of the Law was prophetic pointing to Jesus but the chapter context here is all the law including God's 10 commandments unless your trying to teach that animal sacrifices are still required after all Heaven and Earth have not passed away and Jesus even talks about the 10 commandments in the Chapter.

MATTHEW 5:17-29
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[21], You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22], But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[23], Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has ought against you;
[24], Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25], Agree with your adversary quickly, whiles you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
[26], Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out there, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
[27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
[28], But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
[29], And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Yep Jesus is certainly referencing the 10 Commandment applying them to the thoughts and feelings. Seems like we need a new heart because ours is broken. SIN originates in the heart, unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no wise enter into the Kingdom of heaven v20. Looks like we need a new heart what do you say?

............

NOTE: v17 is talking about ALL the TORAH this is God's LAW (10 Commandments and the Mosaic BOOK of the law) Jesus fulfilled God's 10 Commandments because he kept them perfectly. He fulfilled the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the covenant because all the Sanctuary services for remission of sin (animal sacrifices) and Levitical priesthood were prophetic and were fulfilled in Jesus revealing God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

However, v18-28 is talking about the LAW of RIGHTOUESNESS which is God's 10 Commandments.

PSLAMS 119:172 [172], My tongue shall speak of your word: for all your commandments are righteousness.

v20 Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. v21 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill v27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery

Yep from v18-28 the chapter context is the God's 10 commandments.

Jesus finishes by saying in v48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Hope this helps.

You misused "God's WORD", as usual.

Saint Steven · Oct 17, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Think that means that Jesus? Acknowledged the Jewish Organization of the Old Testament. Into the 3 major sections of the laws of Moses, the prophetic ridings. And all other writings.

today, the Jews call that the TaNaKh = Torah Neviim Khetuvim or something like that

Apparently, the ordering of the books in the Old Testament was changed when the 72 Jewish scholars, translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek in the third century BC. The Septuagint organizes the writings differently, it reorganized the Jewish Old Testament to accord with Greek conceptions of literary genre.

Evidently, the Messiah acknowledged the original Hebrew Jewish. Organization of the Old Testament and its ordering of the books there, of.

That's an interesting question.

Since it is a quote from Jesus, it would seem that he said it, or they modernized the language so we would understand it.

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