Physical Kingdom Problems

Didaskalos said:

Not sure I buy into the "stages" concept. I understand what you are saying... I was pre trib from 1971 through 1979 or so.

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I provided verses that clearly show that all believers are not resurrected at the same time .
Those verses show an obvious distinction from one another.

Didaskalos said:

Not sure I buy into the "stages" concept. I understand what you are saying... I was pre trib from 1971 through 1979 or so.

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I would go so far to say that it is like a RC converting to Protestism/Reformationism or vice versa......They have to leave some baggage behind so to speak which in some cases is difficult to be rid of...

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
quote........."Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively.
It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.

So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. ..........".

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…

Brian Mcnamee said:

nothing personal but that multi colored type is annoying I think the bold and the larger fonts are more than enough to show emphasis.

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My thoughts EXACTLY.

The best part is, look who liked your post.

/nvm

/nvm

BABerean2 said:

Do you think Christ was wrong in Matthew 25:1-13, and do you think Paul was wrong in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, based on your own personal interpretation of Zechariah chapter 14 ?

Christ and Paul agree.

Somebody has to be wrong...

.

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Somebody is wrong alright, and isn't Jesus, nor Paul, nor Zechariah, nor even me in this case. That leaves you being the one wrong here, obviously.

At least my interpretation doesn't ignore what Zechariah, a true prophet of God, has to say about this as well.

I know why you likely conclude what you do. That is because you likely only see two groups of people when Christ returns. You apparently can't grasp that there might be some who don't fit in either of these groups. Zechariah 14:16, for one, proves that there are more than just two groups of people when Christ returns. Obviously these in verse 16 are not in the group of the saved. Obviously they are not in the group that Zechariah 14:12 occurs to either.


At least 3 groups in Zechariah 14, if not more, but 3 for certain.

A----the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

B----And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


C----every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

That is clearly 3 groups. Add them up if you don't believe me. Group C does not fit group A nor B.

Great stuff Dave.. just going to toss this out.. try to see hear this knowing this man came from Heaven.. became His creation. So HOW is it in heaven? HOW does the Father speak? FAITH..ALWAYS faith. How does the Father SEE YOU KNOW? So.. in SOMETHINGS are we just seeing NOW or by faith? He calls those things that be not as though they were..JUST TOSSING it out there

Christ IS... CHRIST IS..

claninja said:

I absolutely agree



Just as the Passover, the first fruits, and Pentecost were a shadow of Christ. I would argue the Ezekiel Temple and Jerusalem are a shadow of the body of Christ.

The Ezekiel temple is where God's throne is, where he rests his feet, and where he dwells with Israel forever:
Ezekiel 43:7 and He said to me, “Son of man, this (temple) is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

We also know that Heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool.
Acts 7:48-49 However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: ‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be?

Considering the similarities between the New Jerusalem (revelation 21-11) and the body of Christ (ephesians 2), the Ezekiel temple appears to be the body of Christ, where God dwells with the believer forever, whether they are on earth (his foot stool) or have gone home to heaven (his throne).




I would say the Ezekiel temple occurs in the New heavens and Earth

The river flows from Ezekiel temple. The river flows from the throne of God and the Lamb (which is the temple in the New Jerusalem).
Ezekiel 47:1 The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east).

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

The river coming from Ezekiel's temple has trees on both sides that produce fruit each month for healing. So does the New Jerusalem
Ezekiel 47:12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.”

Revelation 22:2 On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

The Jerusalem of Ezekiel has 12 Gates with names of the 12 tribes of Israel. So does the New Jerusalem:
Ezekiel 48:31-34 the gates of the city will be named after the tribes of Israel. The three gates on the north side will be the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah and the gate of Levi. “On the east side, which is 4,500 cubits long, will be three gates: the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin and the gate of Dan.
“On the south side, which measures 4,500 cubits, will be three gates: the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar and the gate of Zebulun.“On the west side, which is 4,500 cubits long, will be three gates: the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher and the gate of Naphtali.

Revelation 21:12-13 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west



Amen, I absolutely agree

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I can see myself being onboard with your understanding of Ezekiel's temple, yet you failed to explain what all the animal sacrificing is all about, in regards to that temple. We can't ignore any of that, it is clearly in the texts.

DavidPT said:

C----every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

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1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (Group A)
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (Group C)
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Those living that are left of those nations cannot be the enemies of God, or they would be in group B, and would have been destroyed.

If they are not the enemies of God and are alive at the Second Coming of Christ, who would they be?

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

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Dave L said:

Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

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Hello, not sure I will ever understand all these Ideals.

I have always heard the Kingdom is here but not yet.
It seems if you make Christ LORD of your life, then you become part of that KINGDOM and can have the benefits of it NOW. The KINGDOM is said to be peace and Joy in the HOLY Spirit. So then if we do not have PEACE and JOY are we in the KINGDOM? Likewise Eternal life is said to be KNOWLEDGE about JESUS and God. Those who do not LOVE cannot possible KNOW HIM...So I do wonder if that is "those who do not continue to love" Can you know him and stop KNOWING HIM? if knowing him Is an ETERNAL TYPE OF LIFE.....HE did say that HE came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. Don't quote me on this ..but I do believe it is written: The KINGDOM is at Hand....Is it possible to go in and out of the kingdom considering that one may have abundant life at times and then may not have abundant life. Or those may obtain (Christ) who is abundant life, and only have abundant life based on continued obedience? Anyway I sure hope someone can answer some of these questions....
Thanks in ADVANCE!

corinth77777 said:

Hello, not sure I will ever understand all these Ideals.

I have always heard the Kingdom is here but not yet.
It seems if you make Christ LORD of your life, then you become part of that KINGDOM and can have the benefits of it NOW. The KINGDOM is said to be peace and Joy in the HOLY Spirit. So then if we do not have PEACE and JOY are we in the KINGDOM? Likewise Eternal life is said to be KNOWLEDGE about JESUS and God. Those who do not LOVE cannot possible KNOW HIM...So I do wonder if that is "those who do not continue to love" Can you know him and stop KNOWING HIM? if knowing him Is an ETERNAL TYPE OF LIFE.....HE did say that HE came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. Don't quote me on this ..but I do believe it is written: The KINGDOM is at Hand....Is it possible to go in and out of the kingdom considering that one may have abundant life at times and then may not have abundant life. Or those may obtain (Christ) who is abundant life, and only have abundant life based on continued obedience? Anyway I sure hope someone can answer some of these questions....
Thanks in ADVANCE!

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The benefits of faith in Christ are not necessarily good health, or financial prosperity, etc.

Our reward is eternal, but not on this rotten, sin-cursed world.

In order to inherit the kingdom of God, one must be "born again" of the Spirit of God, which is the result of the process found below.


Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


The New Covenant: Bob George

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BABerean2 said:

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (Group A)
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (Group C)
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Those living that are left of those nations cannot be the enemies of God, or they would be in group B, and would have been destroyed.

If they are not the enemies of God and are alive at the Second Coming of Christ, who would they be?

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

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Let's look at the text again, in Zechariah 14.



Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


The first thing to take note of here, is this. These are obviously not living in Jerusalem if they instead have to come up to Jerusalem to be in Jerusalem.


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where will Christ obviously be dwelling once He returns? In the new Jerusalem of course. The text above indicates that those who believe in Him, that when He comes again, that where He is, there ye may be also. If He is dwelling in the NJ, but that these in Zechariah 14:16 are not dwelling in the NJ, it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these are not ones that believed in Him, because if they had, they would be where He is, unless one wants to claim Jesus didn't know what He was talking about in John 14:1-3.


The next thing to take note of is this----and it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Seriously, does it sound like anyone in John 14:1-3 could possibly be among someone that would be under the threat of punishment for not coming up to Jerusalem? And not only that, logic says that if these in John 14:1-3 are where Christ is, they wouldn't need to come up to Jerusalem, they would already be there. Apparently you prefer your doctrine over Scripture, since you are willing to contradict John 14:1-3 via your doctrine by apparently claiming these in Zechariah 14:16 are also among the blessed saved. So why aren't they dwelling where Christ is dwelling then?

DavidPT said:

Seriously, does it sound like anyone in John 14:1-3 could possibly be among someone that would be under the threat of punishment for not coming up to Jerusalem? And not only that, logic says that if these in John 14:1-3 are where Christ is, they wouldn't need to come up to Jerusalem, they would already be there. Apparently you prefer your doctrine over Scripture, since you are willing to contradict John 14:1-3 via your doctrine by apparently claiming these in Zechariah 14:16 are also among the blessed saved. So why aren't they dwelling where Christ is dwelling then?

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"Seriously"...

You just created group D to make your doctrine work, since you are attempting to ignore those Christians who will be living at the Second Coming of Christ...

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Dave L said:

Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

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Catholic ruled Western Europe in the medieval times, as well as the Puritan Massachusetts Bay Colony thought that they can forcefully instill the physical kingdom of God on Earth.

That's what makes atheists and humanists ticked off at the idea of church mingling in state affairs. But what many atheists and humanists don't realize is that latheistic theocracies did rise up in Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Communist China, and North Korea. And those governments had oppressed opposing views as much as the Puritans and the medieval Catholic Church did.

These examples of Church and state mingling into a theocracy does not work. That is why America is unique in that its constitution does not allow for any church to become the official state church, at least not at the Federal level.

BABerean2 said:

Those living that are left of those nations cannot be the enemies of God, or they would be in group B, and would have been destroyed.

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But since them then in Jerusalem are not destroyed, but they escape through a valley made by the split in the Mt. of Olives. They are not raptured. Which means the rapture takes place at an earlier time.

Who are they escaping from? Those who come up against Jerusalem. In Revelation 16, it says who they are. The armies of the kings of the earth, who are convinced by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan to make war on Jesus.

Those armies don't comprise every last soul on earth. There will be what are called the heathen in Ezekiel 39:21 also left in the world - which will apparently be persons who took the mark, the name, the number. The bible does not say what happens to them - if they can repent or not.

But regarding the heathen, they will be present going into the millennium.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast, same as Revelation 19:17-18. In verse 21, is Jesus Himself speaking...

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

So Jesus will have just got through destroying the armies of the heathen that came up against Jerusalem, in their vain thinking to make war on Him.

The way to think of the Jews in Jerusalem at that time is as hostages, as the core plan of the beast, the false prophet, Satan - to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them

Which is why half the city goes into captivity in Zechariah 14. The rest left crowded into the center of the city - with the beast, the false prophet, Satan (not visible, but possessing the speaking statue image of the beast) on the temple mount - right in the middle.

Think of hostage takers among hostages that are betting on the authorities not harming them for the sake of the hostages. Being in the middle of the hostages using them as shields.

Well, it won't work because Jesus splits the Mt. of Olives and the Jews escape through that valley. Leaving the beast's armies surrounding Jerusalem, and the beast, the false prophet standing on the temple mount - next to the image of the beast that came alive and everyone had to worship.

Before Jesus destroys those armies, He melts away the facade of the statue image of beast, bringing it to ashes. And there on the temple mount will be - Satan - visible, which the world has never seen in his true self. Gasp !

Where this comes from is in Ezekiel 28. Which the King of Tyrus is a code name for Satan. In the earlier verses of Ezekiel 28, the prince of Tyrus, who will sit in God's seat and claim to be God, is the revealed man of sin, having just committed the 2Thessalonias2:4 act.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

_____________________________________________________________________

If a person does not know....

1. That Ezekiel 28:1-10 is about the revealed man of sin, his claim to be God.
2. And that Ezekiel 28, the king of Tyrus, it is referring to Satan, being cast down to earth, and him being exposed to the world.
3. And that in Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking, right after destroying the armies gathered against him. When Ezekiel 39:21-29 is read, it is as if Jesus Himself was standing before you speaking.

.... if a person does not know those things, it is not possible to understand the end times.
_______________________________________________________

The great tribulation what it all boils down to, when it gets right down to it, is Jesus, Who is God, His destruction of Satan. Everything heads that direction.

Douggg said:

But regarding the heathen, they will be present going into the millennium.

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Do you think Christ was wrong in the parable of the virgins from Matthew 25:1-13, and was He also wrong in the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you think Paul was wrong in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 about Christ returning in flaming fire, and was he also wrong about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His return, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Do you think John was wrong about the time of the judgment of the dead, in Revelation 11:18?

Either they are wrong, or you are wrong.

The thread on end-time fiction is still available to anyone who believes that Christ, and Paul, and John are all wrong...

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BABerean2 said:

"Seriously"...

You just created group D to make your doctrine work, since you are attempting to ignore those Christians who will be living at the Second Coming of Christ...

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If you think I am wrong, then by all means, correct my mistakes. Explain to us how the blessed immortal saved ones(apparently your view) post the 2nd coming could be under the threat of plagues for not complying with certain things. Explain why these blessed immortal saved ones(apparently your view) post the 2nd coming , are not dwelling where Jesus is dwelling, that being in the NJ, but that they are dwelling outside of it instead. But if you can't explain those things in a logical manner Biblically, maybe you shouldn't be so critical of my interpretation in the meantime.

DavidPT said:

If you think I am wrong, then by all means, correct my mistakes. Explain to us how the blessed immortal saved ones(apparently your view) post the 2nd coming could be under the threat of plagues for not complying with certain things. Explain why these blessed immortal saved ones(apparently your view) post the 2nd coming , are not dwelling where Jesus is dwelling, that being in the NJ, but that they are dwelling outside of it instead. But if you can't explain those things in a logical manner Biblically, maybe you shouldn't be so critical of my interpretation in the meantime.

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I do not have to explain your interpretation of an Old Testament text.

You have to explain how your interpretation of that text agrees with the words of Christ, and with Paul, and with John in the passages that I posted.

If you cannot do that, then your interpretation of that Old Testament text is wrong.

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Dave L said:

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

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If you are meaning future from now, it seems to me, that in Revelation 20:4, these are doing exactly that, sitting with Jesus in His throne, where you apparently admit is still future----And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. How can that not equal sitting with Christ in His throne?