Physical Kingdom Problems

Brian Mcnamee

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Hi the fact Christ was killed on Passover makes a strong case that this is fulfilled. Passover was a memorial for nation to celebrate the deliverance from bondage. The covering of blood protected from the power of death. In Genesis death is introduced and the metaphor of Passover is perhaps more a play on sin and death then the deliverance from Egypt. Seems to me Jer 31 speaks of the day Israel comes under the new covenant, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”" In Zech 14 after Jesus has come with all his saints and the LORD is declared king over all the earth it says.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.

This is Israel seeing Jesus coming and saving them and now the LORD is one includes Jesus. This might well be the day of Atonement. This fits with the prophecy of Isaiah 61 of what will be accomplished in the day of vengeance and the mourning being turned into joy. Imagine the brokenness of the Jews when they see it was Jesus all along. What a glorious thing like when Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Gal 4
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


So let no one judge you
regarding a festival

which are a shadow of things to come
nothing personal but that multi colored type is annoying I think the bold and the larger fonts are more than enough to show emphasis.
 
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DavidPT

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If you interpret the OT by the New, it will take on new meaning. But if you force the Old into the New, you will not understand it.


Assuming you are correct, explain exactly how you are helping me to understand it correctly then, the fact you seem to have very few, if any, answers for a lot of these things. Your post brings up another point. Perhaps you should consider the following.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Forty Reasons for Not Interpreting the Old Testament by the New Testament

I believe, of course, that the NT does throw much light upon the OT text. But it never imposes itself upon the OT in such a way as to essentially treat it as a sort of ‘palimpsest’ over which an improved NT message must be inscribed. By way of illustration, there are huge ramifications in making a dubious allusion in John 7:38 to Zechariah 14:8 a basis for a doctrine of the expansion of the spiritual temple over the face of the earth. Such a questionable judgment essentially evaporates huge amounts of OT material from, e.g., Numbers 25; Psalm 106; Isaiah 2; 33; 49; Jeremiah 30-33; Ezekiel 34; 36-37; 40-48; Amos 9; Micah 4-5; Zephaniah 3; Zechariah 2; 6; 8; 12-14; and Malachi 3, as well as all those other passages which intersect with them. I believe that the cost is too high as well as quite unnecessary.

With that introduction in mind, here, then, are my forty objections for consideration:

1. Neither Testament instructs us to reinterpret the OT by the NT. Hence, we venture into uncertain waters when we allow this. No Apostolic writer felt it necessary to place in our hands this hermeneutical key, which they supposedly used when they wrote the NT.

2. Since the OT was the Bible of the Early Christians it would mean no one could be sure they had correctly interpreted the OT until they had the NT. In many cases this deficit would last for a good three centuries after the first coming of Jesus Christ.

3. If the OT is in need of reinterpretation because many of its referents (e.g. Israel, land, king, throne, priesthood, temple, Jerusalem, Zion, etc.) in actual fact refer symbolically to Jesus and the NT Church, then these OT “symbols” and “types” must be seen for what they are in the NT. But the NT never does plainly identify the realities and antitypes these OT referents are said to point towards. Thus, this assumption forces the NT into saying things it never explicitly says (e.g. that the Church is “the New Israel,” the “land” is the new Creation, or the seventh day Sabbath is now the first day “Christian Sabbath”).

4. Furthermore, this approach forces the OT into saying things it really does not mean (e.g. Ezekiel 43:1-7, 10-12).

5. It would require the Lord Jesus to have used a brand new set of hermeneutical rules in, e.g., Lk. 24:44; rules not accessible until the arrival of the entire NT, and not fully understood even today. These would have to include rules for each “genre”, which would not have been apparent to anyone interpreting the OT on its own terms.

6. If the OT cannot be interpreted without the NT then what it says on its own account cannot be trusted, as it could well be a “type,” or even part of an obtuse redemptive state of affairs to be alluded to and reinterpreted by the NT.

7. Thus, it would mean the seeming clear predictions about the Coming One in the OT could not be relied upon to present anything but a typological/symbolic picture which would need deciphering by the NT. The most clearly expressed promises of God in the OT (e.g. Jer. 31:31f.; 33:15-26; Ezek. 40-48; Zech. 14:16-21) would be vulnerable to being eventually turned into types and shadows.

8. It would excuse anyone (e.g. the scribes in Jn. 5:35f.) for not accepting Jesus’ claims based on OT prophecies – since those prophecies required the NT to reinterpret them. Therefore, the Lord’s reprimand of the scribes in the context would have been unreasonable.

9. Any rejection of this, with a corresponding assertion that the OT prophecies about Christ did mean what they said, would create the strange hermeneutical paradox of finding clear, plain-sense testimony to Christ in the OT while claiming the OT cannot be interpreted without the NT. One could not maintain this position without calling the whole assumption under review.

10. The divining of these OT types and shadows is no easy task, especially as the NT does not provide any specific help on the matter. NT scholarship has never come to consensus on these matters, let alone “the common people” to whom the NT was purportedly written.

11. Thus, this approach pulls a “typological shroud” over the OT, denying to its Author the credit of meaning what He says and saying what He means (e.g. what does one make of the specificity of Jer. 33:14-26 or Zeph. 3:9-20?).

12. If the Author of the OT does not mean what He appears to say, but is in reality speaking in types and shadows, which He will apparently reveal later, what assurance is there that He is not still speaking in types and shadows in the NT? Especially is this problem intensified because many places in the NT are said to be types and shadows still (e.g. the Temple in 2 Thess. 2 and Rev. 11).

13. This view imposes a “unity” on the Bible which is symbolic and metaphorical only. Hence, taking the Bible in a normal, plain-sense should destroy any unity between the Testaments. What we mean by “normal, plain-sense” is the sense scholars advocating this view take for granted their readers will adopt with them, which we would identify as “literal.”

14. However, a high degree of unity can be achieved by linking together the OT and NT literature in a plain-sense, even though every question the interpreter may have will not be answered. Hence, this position that the NT must reinterpret the OT ignores or rejects the fact that, taken literally (in the sense defined above) the OT makes good sense. But in ignoring this truth, Christians may pull down upon themselves the same kind of accusations of defensive special-pleading which they accuse religions like Islam and Mormonism of using.

15. Saying the types and shadows in the OT (which supposedly include the land given to Israel, the throne in Jerusalem, the temple of Ezekiel, etc.), are given their proper concrete meanings by the NT implies neither the believer nor the unbeliever can comprehend God’s promises solely from the OT.

16. Thus, no unbeliever could be accused of unbelief so long as they only possessed the OT, since the apparatus for belief (the NT) was not within their grasp.

17. This all makes mincemeat of any claim for the perspicuity of Scripture. At the very least it makes this an attribute possessed only by the NT, and only tortuous logic could equate the word “perspicuity” to such wholesale symbolic and typological approaches.

18. Thus, the OT is deprived of its own hermeneutical integrity. This would render warnings such as that found in Proverbs 30:5-6 pointless, since the meaning of the OT words must be added to in order to find their concrete references.

19. A corollary to this is that the authority of the OT to speak in its own voice is severely undermined.

20. In consequence of the above the status of the OT as “Word of God” would be logically inferior to the status of the NT. The result is that the NT (which refers to the OT as the “Word of God”) is more inspired than the OT, producing the unwelcome outcome of two levels of inspiration.

21. Saying the NT must reinterpret the OT also devalues the OT as its own witness to God and His Plans. For example, if the promises given to ethnic Israel of land, throne, temple, etc. are somehow “fulfilled” in Jesus and the Church, what was the point of speaking about them so pointedly? Cramming everything into Christ not only destroys the clarity and unity of Scripture in the ways already mentioned, it reduces the biblical covenants down to the debated promise of Genesis 3:15. The [true] expansion seen in the covenants (with all their categorical statements) is deflated into a single sound-bite of “the Promised Seed-Redeemer has now come and all is fulfilled in Him.” This casts aspersions on God as a communicator and as a covenant-Maker, since there was absolutely no need for God to say many of the things He said in the OT, let alone bind himself by oaths to fulfill them (a la Jer. 31 & 33. Four covenants are cited in Jer. 33; three in Ezek. 37).

22. It forces one to adopt a “promise – fulfillment” scheme between the Testaments, ignoring the fact that the OT possesses no such promise scheme, but rather a more relational “covenant – blessing” scheme.

23. It effectively shoves aside the hermeneutical import of the inspired inter-textual usage of an earlier OT text by later OT writers (e.g. earlier covenants are cited and taken to mean what they say in Psa. 89:33-37; 105:6-12; 106:30-31: 132:11-12; Jer. 33:17-18, 20-22, 25-26; Ezek. 37:14, 21-26). God is always taken at face value (e.g. 2 Ki. 1:3-4, 16-17; 5:10, 14; Dan. 9:2, 13). This sets up an expectation that covenant commitments will find “fulfillment” in expected ways, certainly not in completely unforeseeable ones.

24. It forces clear descriptive language into an unnecessary semantic mold (e.g. Ezek. 40-48; Zech. 14). A classic example being Ezekiel’s Temple in Ezek. 40ff. According to the view that the NT reinterprets the Old, it is not a physical temple even though scholars across every spectrum declare that a physical temple is clearly described.

25. It impels a simplistic and overly dependent reliance on the confused and confusing genre labeled “apocalyptic” – a genre about which there is no scholarly definitional consensus.

26. It would make the specific wording of the covenant oaths, which God took for man’s benefit, misleading and hence unreliable as a witness to God’s intentions. This sets a poor precedent for people making covenants and not sticking to what they actually promise to do (e.g. Jer. 34:18; cf. 33:15ff. and 35:13-16). This encourages theological nominalism, wherein God’s oath can be altered just because He says it can.

27. Since interpreters in the OT (Psa. 105:6-12); NT (Acts 1:6); and the inter-testamental period (e.g. Tobit 14:4-7) took the covenant promises at face value (i.e. to correspond precisely to the people and things they explicitly refer to), this would mean God’s testimony to Himself and His works in those promises, which God knew would be interpreted that way, was calculated to deceive the saints. Hence, a “pious transformation” of OT covenant terms through certain interpretations of NT texts backfires by giving ammunition to those who cast aspersions on the God of the OT.

28. The character of any being, be it man or angel, but especially God, is bound to the words agreed to in a covenant (cf. Jer. 33:14, 24-26; 34:18). This being so, God could not make such covenants and then perform them in a way totally foreign to the plain wording of the oaths He took; at least not without it testifying against His own holy veracious character. Hence, not even God could “expand” His promises in a fashion that would lead literally thousands of saints to be misled by them.

29. A God who would “expand” His promises in such an unanticipated way could never be trusted not to “transform” His promises to us in the Gospel. Thus, there might be a difference between the Gospel message as we preach it (relying on the face value language of say Jn. 3:16; 5:24; Rom. 3:23-26), and God’s real intentions when He eventually “fulfills” the promises in the Gospel. Since it is thought that He did so in the past, it is conceivable that He might do so again in the future. Perhaps the promises to the Church will be “fulfilled” in totally unexpected ways with a people other than the Church, the Church being just a shadow of a future reality?

30. Exegetically it would entail taking passages in both Testaments literally and non-literally at the same time (e.g. Isa. 9:6-7; 49:6; Mic. 5:2; Zech. 9:9; Lk. 1:31-33; Rev. 7).

31. Exegetically it would also impose structural discontinuities into prophetic books (e.g. God’s glory departs a literal temple by the east gate in Ezekiel 10, but apparently returns to a spiritual temple through a spiritual east gate in Ezekiel 43!).

32. In addition, it makes the Creator of language the greatest rambler in all literature. Why did God not just tell the prophet, “When the Messiah comes He will be the Temple and all those in Him will be called the Temple”? That would have saved thousands of misleading words at the end of Ezekiel.

33. It ignores the life-setting of the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 in the context of their already having had forty days teaching about the very thing they asked about (“the kingdom” – see Acts 1:3). This reflects badly on the clarity of the Risen Lord’s teaching about the kingdom. But the tenacity with which these disciples still clung to literal fulfillments would also prove the validity of #’s 23, 26, 27, 28 & 32 above.

34. This resistance to the clear expectation of the disciples also ignores the question of the disciples, which was about the timing of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, not its nature.

35. It turns the admonition to “keep” the words of the prophecy in Revelation 1:3 into an absurdity, because the straight forward, non-symbolic understanding of the numbers (7, 42, 144000, 1260, 1000, etc) and persons and places (twelve tribes of Israel, the Two Witnesses, the Beast and False Prophet, Jerusalem, Babylon, New Jerusalem, etc.), which is in large part built upon the plain sense of the OT is rejected in favor of tentative symbolic/typological interpretations. But how many people can “keep” what they are uncertain is being “revealed”?

36. It makes the unwarranted assumption that there can only be one people of God. Since the OT speaks of Israel and the nations (e.g. Zech. 14:16f.); Paul speaks of Israel and the Church (e.g. Rom. 11:25, 28; Gal. 6:16; 1 Cor. 10:32; cf. Acts 26:7), and the Book of Revelation speaks of Israel separated from the nations (Rev. 7), and those in New Jerusalem distinguished from “the kings of the earth” (Rev. 21:9-22:5), it seems precarious to place every saved person from all ages into the Church.

37. In reality what happens is that the theological presuppositions of the interpreter are read into the NT text and then back into the OT. There is a corresponding breakdown between what the biblical texts say and what they are presumed to mean. Thus, it is the interpretation of the reader and not the wording of the biblical text which is often the authority for what the Bible is allowed to teach.

38. This view also results in pitting NT authors against themselves. E.g. if “spiritual resurrection” is read into Jn. 5:25 on the rather flimsy basis of an allusion to Dan. 12:1-2, that interpretation can then be foisted on Rev. 20:4-6 to make John refer to a spiritual resurrection in that place too. Again, if Jesus is said to refer to His physical body as “this temple” in Jn.2:19, then He is not allowed to refer to a physical temple building in Rev. 11:1-2. This looks like what might be called “textual preferencing.”

39. This view, which espouses a God who prevaricates in the promises and covenants He makes, also tempts its adherents to adopt equivocation themselves when they are asked to expound OT covenantal language in its original context. It often tempts them to avoid specific OT passages whose particulars are hard to interpret in light of their supposed fulfillment in the NT. What is more, it makes one overly sensitive to words like “literal” and “replacement,” even though these words are used freely when not discussing matters germane to this subject.

40. Finally, there is no critical awareness of many of the problems enumerated above because that awareness is provided by the OT texts and the specific wording of those texts. But, of course, the OT is not allowed a voice on par with what the NT text is assumed to make it mean. Only verses which preserve the desired theological picture are allowed to mean what they say. Hence a vicious circle is created of the NT reinterpreting the Old. This is a hermeneutical circle which ought not to be presupposed because it results in two-thirds of the Bible being effectively quieted until the NT has reinterpreted what it really meant.

Forty Reasons for Not Interpreting the Old Testament by the New Testament
 
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Dave L

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Hi the fact Christ was killed on Passover makes a strong case that this is fulfilled. Passover was a memorial for nation to celebrate the deliverance from bondage. The covering of blood protected from the power of death. In Genesis death is introduced and the metaphor of Passover is perhaps more a play on sin and death then the deliverance from Egypt. Seems to me Jer 31 speaks of the day Israel comes under the new covenant, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”" In Zech 14 after Jesus has come with all his saints and the LORD is declared king over all the earth it says.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.

This is Israel seeing Jesus coming and saving them and now the LORD is one includes Jesus. This might well be the day of Atonement. This fits with the prophecy of Isaiah 61 of what will be accomplished in the day of vengeance and the mourning being turned into joy. Imagine the brokenness of the Jews when they see it was Jesus all along. What a glorious thing like when Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.
If you digest a few things first from the NT, the OT will make sense.

In the NT Jesus IS Israel along with we who believe in him.

The kingdom is spiritual and not of this world.

The restoration of Israel happens on the last day in the resurrection (restoration) of believers in Christ.

The broken off physical Jews are not biblical Jews, nor are they biblical Israel. Instead they are gentiles with Jewish customs.

Only those who accept Christ will God reattach to biblical Israel (Jesus and the church).
 
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Dave L

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Assuming you are correct, explain exactly how you are helping me to understand it correctly then, the fact you seem to have very few, if any, answers for a lot of these things. Your post brings up another point. Perhaps you should consider the following.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Forty Reasons for Not Interpreting the Old Testament by the New Testament

I believe, of course, that the NT does throw much light upon the OT text. But it never imposes itself upon the OT in such a way as to essentially treat it as a sort of ‘palimpsest’ over which an improved NT message must be inscribed. By way of illustration, there are huge ramifications in making a dubious allusion in John 7:38 to Zechariah 14:8 a basis for a doctrine of the expansion of the spiritual temple over the face of the earth. Such a questionable judgment essentially evaporates huge amounts of OT material from, e.g., Numbers 25; Psalm 106; Isaiah 2; 33; 49; Jeremiah 30-33; Ezekiel 34; 36-37; 40-48; Amos 9; Micah 4-5; Zephaniah 3; Zechariah 2; 6; 8; 12-14; and Malachi 3, as well as all those other passages which intersect with them. I believe that the cost is too high as well as quite unnecessary.

With that introduction in mind, here, then, are my forty objections for consideration:

1. Neither Testament instructs us to reinterpret the OT by the NT. Hence, we venture into uncertain waters when we allow this. No Apostolic writer felt it necessary to place in our hands this hermeneutical key, which they supposedly used when they wrote the NT.

2. Since the OT was the Bible of the Early Christians it would mean no one could be sure they had correctly interpreted the OT until they had the NT. In many cases this deficit would last for a good three centuries after the first coming of Jesus Christ.

3. If the OT is in need of reinterpretation because many of its referents (e.g. Israel, land, king, throne, priesthood, temple, Jerusalem, Zion, etc.) in actual fact refer symbolically to Jesus and the NT Church, then these OT “symbols” and “types” must be seen for what they are in the NT. But the NT never does plainly identify the realities and antitypes these OT referents are said to point towards. Thus, this assumption forces the NT into saying things it never explicitly says (e.g. that the Church is “the New Israel,” the “land” is the new Creation, or the seventh day Sabbath is now the first day “Christian Sabbath”).

4. Furthermore, this approach forces the OT into saying things it really does not mean (e.g. Ezekiel 43:1-7, 10-12).

5. It would require the Lord Jesus to have used a brand new set of hermeneutical rules in, e.g., Lk. 24:44; rules not accessible until the arrival of the entire NT, and not fully understood even today. These would have to include rules for each “genre”, which would not have been apparent to anyone interpreting the OT on its own terms.

6. If the OT cannot be interpreted without the NT then what it says on its own account cannot be trusted, as it could well be a “type,” or even part of an obtuse redemptive state of affairs to be alluded to and reinterpreted by the NT.

7. Thus, it would mean the seeming clear predictions about the Coming One in the OT could not be relied upon to present anything but a typological/symbolic picture which would need deciphering by the NT. The most clearly expressed promises of God in the OT (e.g. Jer. 31:31f.; 33:15-26; Ezek. 40-48; Zech. 14:16-21) would be vulnerable to being eventually turned into types and shadows.

8. It would excuse anyone (e.g. the scribes in Jn. 5:35f.) for not accepting Jesus’ claims based on OT prophecies – since those prophecies required the NT to reinterpret them. Therefore, the Lord’s reprimand of the scribes in the context would have been unreasonable.

9. Any rejection of this, with a corresponding assertion that the OT prophecies about Christ did mean what they said, would create the strange hermeneutical paradox of finding clear, plain-sense testimony to Christ in the OT while claiming the OT cannot be interpreted without the NT. One could not maintain this position without calling the whole assumption under review.

10. The divining of these OT types and shadows is no easy task, especially as the NT does not provide any specific help on the matter. NT scholarship has never come to consensus on these matters, let alone “the common people” to whom the NT was purportedly written.

11. Thus, this approach pulls a “typological shroud” over the OT, denying to its Author the credit of meaning what He says and saying what He means (e.g. what does one make of the specificity of Jer. 33:14-26 or Zeph. 3:9-20?).

12. If the Author of the OT does not mean what He appears to say, but is in reality speaking in types and shadows, which He will apparently reveal later, what assurance is there that He is not still speaking in types and shadows in the NT? Especially is this problem intensified because many places in the NT are said to be types and shadows still (e.g. the Temple in 2 Thess. 2 and Rev. 11).

13. This view imposes a “unity” on the Bible which is symbolic and metaphorical only. Hence, taking the Bible in a normal, plain-sense should destroy any unity between the Testaments. What we mean by “normal, plain-sense” is the sense scholars advocating this view take for granted their readers will adopt with them, which we would identify as “literal.”

14. However, a high degree of unity can be achieved by linking together the OT and NT literature in a plain-sense, even though every question the interpreter may have will not be answered. Hence, this position that the NT must reinterpret the OT ignores or rejects the fact that, taken literally (in the sense defined above) the OT makes good sense. But in ignoring this truth, Christians may pull down upon themselves the same kind of accusations of defensive special-pleading which they accuse religions like Islam and Mormonism of using.

15. Saying the types and shadows in the OT (which supposedly include the land given to Israel, the throne in Jerusalem, the temple of Ezekiel, etc.), are given their proper concrete meanings by the NT implies neither the believer nor the unbeliever can comprehend God’s promises solely from the OT.

16. Thus, no unbeliever could be accused of unbelief so long as they only possessed the OT, since the apparatus for belief (the NT) was not within their grasp.

17. This all makes mincemeat of any claim for the perspicuity of Scripture. At the very least it makes this an attribute possessed only by the NT, and only tortuous logic could equate the word “perspicuity” to such wholesale symbolic and typological approaches.

18. Thus, the OT is deprived of its own hermeneutical integrity. This would render warnings such as that found in Proverbs 30:5-6 pointless, since the meaning of the OT words must be added to in order to find their concrete references.

19. A corollary to this is that the authority of the OT to speak in its own voice is severely undermined.

20. In consequence of the above the status of the OT as “Word of God” would be logically inferior to the status of the NT. The result is that the NT (which refers to the OT as the “Word of God”) is more inspired than the OT, producing the unwelcome outcome of two levels of inspiration.

21. Saying the NT must reinterpret the OT also devalues the OT as its own witness to God and His Plans. For example, if the promises given to ethnic Israel of land, throne, temple, etc. are somehow “fulfilled” in Jesus and the Church, what was the point of speaking about them so pointedly? Cramming everything into Christ not only destroys the clarity and unity of Scripture in the ways already mentioned, it reduces the biblical covenants down to the debated promise of Genesis 3:15. The [true] expansion seen in the covenants (with all their categorical statements) is deflated into a single sound-bite of “the Promised Seed-Redeemer has now come and all is fulfilled in Him.” This casts aspersions on God as a communicator and as a covenant-Maker, since there was absolutely no need for God to say many of the things He said in the OT, let alone bind himself by oaths to fulfill them (a la Jer. 31 & 33. Four covenants are cited in Jer. 33; three in Ezek. 37).

22. It forces one to adopt a “promise – fulfillment” scheme between the Testaments, ignoring the fact that the OT possesses no such promise scheme, but rather a more relational “covenant – blessing” scheme.

23. It effectively shoves aside the hermeneutical import of the inspired inter-textual usage of an earlier OT text by later OT writers (e.g. earlier covenants are cited and taken to mean what they say in Psa. 89:33-37; 105:6-12; 106:30-31: 132:11-12; Jer. 33:17-18, 20-22, 25-26; Ezek. 37:14, 21-26). God is always taken at face value (e.g. 2 Ki. 1:3-4, 16-17; 5:10, 14; Dan. 9:2, 13). This sets up an expectation that covenant commitments will find “fulfillment” in expected ways, certainly not in completely unforeseeable ones.

24. It forces clear descriptive language into an unnecessary semantic mold (e.g. Ezek. 40-48; Zech. 14). A classic example being Ezekiel’s Temple in Ezek. 40ff. According to the view that the NT reinterprets the Old, it is not a physical temple even though scholars across every spectrum declare that a physical temple is clearly described.

25. It impels a simplistic and overly dependent reliance on the confused and confusing genre labeled “apocalyptic” – a genre about which there is no scholarly definitional consensus.

26. It would make the specific wording of the covenant oaths, which God took for man’s benefit, misleading and hence unreliable as a witness to God’s intentions. This sets a poor precedent for people making covenants and not sticking to what they actually promise to do (e.g. Jer. 34:18; cf. 33:15ff. and 35:13-16). This encourages theological nominalism, wherein God’s oath can be altered just because He says it can.

27. Since interpreters in the OT (Psa. 105:6-12); NT (Acts 1:6); and the inter-testamental period (e.g. Tobit 14:4-7) took the covenant promises at face value (i.e. to correspond precisely to the people and things they explicitly refer to), this would mean God’s testimony to Himself and His works in those promises, which God knew would be interpreted that way, was calculated to deceive the saints. Hence, a “pious transformation” of OT covenant terms through certain interpretations of NT texts backfires by giving ammunition to those who cast aspersions on the God of the OT.

28. The character of any being, be it man or angel, but especially God, is bound to the words agreed to in a covenant (cf. Jer. 33:14, 24-26; 34:18). This being so, God could not make such covenants and then perform them in a way totally foreign to the plain wording of the oaths He took; at least not without it testifying against His own holy veracious character. Hence, not even God could “expand” His promises in a fashion that would lead literally thousands of saints to be misled by them.

29. A God who would “expand” His promises in such an unanticipated way could never be trusted not to “transform” His promises to us in the Gospel. Thus, there might be a difference between the Gospel message as we preach it (relying on the face value language of say Jn. 3:16; 5:24; Rom. 3:23-26), and God’s real intentions when He eventually “fulfills” the promises in the Gospel. Since it is thought that He did so in the past, it is conceivable that He might do so again in the future. Perhaps the promises to the Church will be “fulfilled” in totally unexpected ways with a people other than the Church, the Church being just a shadow of a future reality?

30. Exegetically it would entail taking passages in both Testaments literally and non-literally at the same time (e.g. Isa. 9:6-7; 49:6; Mic. 5:2; Zech. 9:9; Lk. 1:31-33; Rev. 7).

31. Exegetically it would also impose structural discontinuities into prophetic books (e.g. God’s glory departs a literal temple by the east gate in Ezekiel 10, but apparently returns to a spiritual temple through a spiritual east gate in Ezekiel 43!).

32. In addition, it makes the Creator of language the greatest rambler in all literature. Why did God not just tell the prophet, “When the Messiah comes He will be the Temple and all those in Him will be called the Temple”? That would have saved thousands of misleading words at the end of Ezekiel.

33. It ignores the life-setting of the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 in the context of their already having had forty days teaching about the very thing they asked about (“the kingdom” – see Acts 1:3). This reflects badly on the clarity of the Risen Lord’s teaching about the kingdom. But the tenacity with which these disciples still clung to literal fulfillments would also prove the validity of #’s 23, 26, 27, 28 & 32 above.

34. This resistance to the clear expectation of the disciples also ignores the question of the disciples, which was about the timing of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, not its nature.

35. It turns the admonition to “keep” the words of the prophecy in Revelation 1:3 into an absurdity, because the straight forward, non-symbolic understanding of the numbers (7, 42, 144000, 1260, 1000, etc) and persons and places (twelve tribes of Israel, the Two Witnesses, the Beast and False Prophet, Jerusalem, Babylon, New Jerusalem, etc.), which is in large part built upon the plain sense of the OT is rejected in favor of tentative symbolic/typological interpretations. But how many people can “keep” what they are uncertain is being “revealed”?

36. It makes the unwarranted assumption that there can only be one people of God. Since the OT speaks of Israel and the nations (e.g. Zech. 14:16f.); Paul speaks of Israel and the Church (e.g. Rom. 11:25, 28; Gal. 6:16; 1 Cor. 10:32; cf. Acts 26:7), and the Book of Revelation speaks of Israel separated from the nations (Rev. 7), and those in New Jerusalem distinguished from “the kings of the earth” (Rev. 21:9-22:5), it seems precarious to place every saved person from all ages into the Church.

37. In reality what happens is that the theological presuppositions of the interpreter are read into the NT text and then back into the OT. There is a corresponding breakdown between what the biblical texts say and what they are presumed to mean. Thus, it is the interpretation of the reader and not the wording of the biblical text which is often the authority for what the Bible is allowed to teach.

38. This view also results in pitting NT authors against themselves. E.g. if “spiritual resurrection” is read into Jn. 5:25 on the rather flimsy basis of an allusion to Dan. 12:1-2, that interpretation can then be foisted on Rev. 20:4-6 to make John refer to a spiritual resurrection in that place too. Again, if Jesus is said to refer to His physical body as “this temple” in Jn.2:19, then He is not allowed to refer to a physical temple building in Rev. 11:1-2. This looks like what might be called “textual preferencing.”

39. This view, which espouses a God who prevaricates in the promises and covenants He makes, also tempts its adherents to adopt equivocation themselves when they are asked to expound OT covenantal language in its original context. It often tempts them to avoid specific OT passages whose particulars are hard to interpret in light of their supposed fulfillment in the NT. What is more, it makes one overly sensitive to words like “literal” and “replacement,” even though these words are used freely when not discussing matters germane to this subject.

40. Finally, there is no critical awareness of many of the problems enumerated above because that awareness is provided by the OT texts and the specific wording of those texts. But, of course, the OT is not allowed a voice on par with what the NT text is assumed to make it mean. Only verses which preserve the desired theological picture are allowed to mean what they say. Hence a vicious circle is created of the NT reinterpreting the Old. This is a hermeneutical circle which ought not to be presupposed because it results in two-thirds of the Bible being effectively quieted until the NT has reinterpreted what it really meant.

Forty Reasons for Not Interpreting the Old Testament by the New Testament
Jesus interpreted the OT for us, do you prefer his interpretation? Or the pharisees interpretation?
 
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icxn

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Revelation seems to disagree. The first resurrection is at the end of the trib. That means there would be none before it.
First resurrection (Rev. 20:5) is that which takes place in the baptismal font. (Colossians 2:12)
 
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claninja

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I was meaning in the manner Christ fulfilled them. None of that involved the literal sacrificing of animals.

Just to clarify, as I'm still a little confused by this statement, you are saying Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts by the sacrifice of himself (Passover), resurrection (first fruits), and sending the holy spirit (Pentecost), which did not involve literal animal sacrifices, correct? If that is the case, I absolutely agree. Does this mean that you believe the fall festivals will require future animal sacrifices?

If Christ fulfilled the spring feasts in their correct orders and days, and that the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled a number of days later after He had ascended

How did Christ specifically fulfill the feast of unleavened bread for 7 days within the specific time frame of the spring festivals? Are there any NT references to this between Christ' resurrection and Pentecost?
Passover (1st month; 14th day): crucifixion
Feast of unleavened bread (1st month; 15th day; Sabbath; for 7 days): ___________?
First fruits (1st month; 16th day; day after the sabbath): Resurrection
Feast of Weeks (50 days after the First fruits): Pentecost


The only NT testament reference for believers "keeping the feast" of unleavened bread is in 1 Corinthians 5. Paul spiritualizes how believers are to "keep the feast" of unleavened bread. By the sacrifice of Christ, we are to remove the "yeast" (malice and wickedness) from our lives and be unleavened.


1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Therefore, if the feast of unleavened bread was not fulfilled by Jesus on specific date, but in general for all believers by his Passover sacrifice, as Paul states, then specific dating isn't a requirement for ALL of the feasts. This is true also when we consider the Day of atonement.

So when are you concluding He fulfilled the day of atonement after the feast of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2? To place the day of atonement before the fulfilling of the feast of Pentecost is to place it's fulfillment out of order, thus not in it's correct season nor during it's correct days.

The day of atonement occurred once a year in the 7th month. It was the only day that anyone was allowed into the Most Holy Place:
Leviticus 16:2 “Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die.
Leviticus 16:34 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
Leviticus 23:26 The Lord said to Moses, “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, d and present a food offering to the Lord.


Jesus entered in the true Most Holy Place (not the copy) by his death and secured ETERNAL redemption. Jesus did not enter heaven on the 10th day of the 7th month
Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining b eternal redemption

If Jesus did not secure ETERNAL redemption by his death, then he would have to suffer many times AND enter heaven many times just like the high priest under the old covenant. But that is not the case, for Christ fulfilled the day of atonement and thus does not need to enter heaven over and over again or suffer over and over again
Hebrews 9:25-26 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Just as the sin offering was taken outside of the camp on the day of atonement, so to Jesus suffered outside of the camp
Leviticus 16:27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp

Hebrews 13:11-14 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

Has Jesus entered the Most Holy Place? Yes
Has Jesus secured eternal redemption? Yes
Thus the day of Atonement has been fulfilled at Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension. We no longer have to wait for Jesus to enter the Most Holy place and intercede for us. Nor do believers have to wait for the 10th day of the 7th month.


Forgot to mention this in my other post, but it seems simple to me, the fact there are two comings. The first coming involves the spring feasts. The 2nd coming involves the fall feasts. Might be one reason why the 70 weeks aren't entirely fulfilled as of yet, among other reasons.

I wouldn't exactly agree. the feast of unleavened bread wasn't necessarily fulfilled by a specific event for 7 days after Christ was crucified. It is fulfilled by believers removing yeast "malice and wickedness" through Christ's Passover sacrifice. Additionally, the book of Hebrews clearly lays out that the day of atonement has been fulfilled by Christ. For Christ entered the most holy place ONCE FOR ALL and secured ETERNAL redemption. This did not take place on the 10th day of the 7th month.
Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining b eternal redemption
 
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DavidPT

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Jesus interpreted the OT for us, do you prefer his interpretation? Or the pharisees interpretation?


Those 40 reasons that author provided in that link, I'm not claiming I agree with all 40 reasons, yet a lot of those 40 reasons he does have a valid point about though. Anyone reading through those 40 reasons, it's up to that person whether to agree with any of them or not. I tend to think the OT has a lot of the missing details not found in the NT.

For example.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The text indicates, that if a person keeps His works unto the end, Jesus will then reward that person with power over the nations. How can the end not be meaning the end of that person's life, or the 2nd coming, depending on which occurs first? Why would anyone need power over the nations after they had died? Wouldn't it mean that they would have to be resurrected in order to then have power over the nations after they had died? If there is no one but the saved remaining on the earth post the 2nd coming, why would a person need power over other saved nations? Does not verse 27 indicate this power over the nations consists of ruling them with a rod of iron?

This is where the OT might help us with some of the missing details. Zechariah 14 is a good place to look. It shows there being people left of the nations which have come against Jerusalem. Maybe it's those remaining of nations like that who will be ruled over with a rod of iron by those who keep His works unto the end.
 
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DavidPT

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Just to clarify, as I'm still a little confused by this statement, you are saying Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts by the sacrifice of himself (Passover), resurrection (first fruits), and sending the holy spirit (Pentecost), which did not involve literal animal sacrifices, correct? If that is the case, I absolutely agree. Does this mean that you believe the fall festivals will require future animal sacrifices?

As I pointed out to Ken in one of my posts, I believe the same to be true of the fall feasts, that when Christ fulfills them in relation to the 2nd coming, none of that will require any literal animal sacrificing either. Animal sacrificing is over with forever. It's not going to start up again, especially post the 2nd coming. Of course though some Premils might disagree, as in Ezekiel's temple, and doesn't that text indicate animal sacrificing resumes after the 2nd coming? Unfortunately I don't have any good answers regarding Ezekiel's temple. All I know is, I can't fathom that animal sacrificing would resume in the future after Christ has returned. It doesn't compute.
 
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BABerean2

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Hi the fact Christ was killed on Passover makes a strong case that this is fulfilled. Passover was a memorial for nation to celebrate the deliverance from bondage. The covering of blood protected from the power of death. In Genesis death is introduced and the metaphor of Passover is perhaps more a play on sin and death then the deliverance from Egypt. Seems to me Jer 31 speaks of the day Israel comes under the new covenant, "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”" In Zech 14 after Jesus has come with all his saints and the LORD is declared king over all the earth it says.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.

This is Israel seeing Jesus coming and saving them and now the LORD is one includes Jesus. This might well be the day of Atonement. This fits with the prophecy of Isaiah 61 of what will be accomplished in the day of vengeance and the mourning being turned into joy. Imagine the brokenness of the Jews when they see it was Jesus all along. What a glorious thing like when Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.

Based on Christ's parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, and Christ returning "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, nobody will come to salvation at Christ's Second Coming, if that is what you are implying.

.
 
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Seems like Mark Twain was right,
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
Do not be led into every wind of doctrine.

I like that... I have always taught that it not hard to teach people new correct things... but it is very difficult to "unteach" bad things. The bad things get worked into the belief system and there are all kind of connections that have to be broken, false conclusions that have to be eliminated, and incorrect assumptions that have to be melted. Like a building that has a bad foundations. The whole building is then crooked and the higher you build on that bad foundation, the more crooked you get.
The late Derek Prince has a very good series on "Foundational Truth" based on Hebrews 6:1-3 which I would recommend to anyone.
 
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DavidPT

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Based on Christ's parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, and Christ returning "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, nobody will come to salvation at Christ's Second Coming, if that is what you are implying.

.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These can't be meaning saved people, thus would have to be the unsaved. The time frame for verse 16 is obviously post the time frame in verse 2 and 12. As of now, the present time we are living in, when has verse 12 ever come to pass?

But if none of the unsaved remain once the 2nd coming occurs, why is the prophet Zechariah contradicting that?
 
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Dave L

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Those 40 reasons that author provided in that link, I'm not claiming I agree with all 40 reasons, yet a lot of those 40 reasons he does have a valid point about though. Anyone reading through those 40 reasons, it's up to that person whether to agree with any of them or not. I tend to think the OT has a lot of the missing details not found in the NT.

For example.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The text indicates, that if a person keeps His works unto the end, Jesus will then reward that person with power over the nations. How can the end not be meaning the end of that person's life, or the 2nd coming, depending on which occurs first? Why would anyone need power over the nations after they had died? Wouldn't it mean that they would have to be resurrected in order to then have power over the nations after they had died? If there is no one but the saved remaining on the earth post the 2nd coming, why would a person need power over other saved nations? Does not verse 27 indicate this power over the nations consists of ruling them with a rod of iron?

This is where the OT might help us with some of the missing details. Zechariah 14 is a good place to look. It shows there being people left of the nations which have come against Jerusalem. Maybe it's those remaining of nations like that who will be ruled over with a rod of iron by those who keep His works unto the end.
If you first study the NT and learn what it says, you'll know that what you look for in a physical millennium is happening now spiritually. It will never happen physically.
 
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claninja

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Animal sacrificing is over with forever.

I absolutely agree

Of course though some Premils might disagree, as in Ezekiel's temple, and doesn't that text indicate animal sacrificing resumes after the 2nd coming?

Just as the Passover, the first fruits, and Pentecost were a shadow of Christ. I would argue the Ezekiel Temple and Jerusalem are a shadow of the body of Christ.

The Ezekiel temple is where God's throne is, where he rests his feet, and where he dwells with Israel forever:
Ezekiel 43:7 and He said to me, “Son of man, this (temple) is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

We also know that Heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool.
Acts 7:48-49 However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: ‘Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or where will My place of repose be?

Considering the similarities between the New Jerusalem (revelation 21-11) and the body of Christ (ephesians 2), the Ezekiel temple appears to be the body of Christ, where God dwells with the believer forever, whether they are on earth (his foot stool) or have gone home to heaven (his throne).


course though some Premils might disagree, as in Ezekiel's temple, and doesn't that text indicate animal sacrificing resumes after the 2nd coming? Unfortunately I don't have any good answers regarding Ezekiel's temple.

I would say the Ezekiel temple occurs in the New heavens and Earth

The river flows from Ezekiel temple. The river flows from the throne of God and the Lamb (which is the temple in the New Jerusalem).
Ezekiel 47:1 The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east).

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

The river coming from Ezekiel's temple has trees on both sides that produce fruit each month for healing. So does the New Jerusalem
Ezekiel 47:12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.”


Revelation 22:2 On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.


The Jerusalem of Ezekiel has 12 Gates with names of the 12 tribes of Israel. So does the New Jerusalem:

Ezekiel 48:31-34 the gates of the city will be named after the tribes of Israel. The three gates on the north side will be the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah and the gate of Levi. “On the east side, which is 4,500 cubits long, will be three gates: the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin and the gate of Dan.
“On the south side, which measures 4,500 cubits, will be three gates: the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar and the gate of Zebulun.“On the west side, which is 4,500 cubits long, will be three gates: the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher and the gate of Naphtali.


Revelation 21:12-13 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west

. All I know is, I can't fathom that animal sacrificing would resume in the future after Christ has returned. It doesn't compute.

Amen, I absolutely agree
 
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The 144,000 are the sons of Israel, 12,000 from each 12 tribes to evangelize the world during the 7 year tribulation.

This cannot be friend. Read Revelation 14 which is a letter to the 7 Church Apostles in Asia Minor where it presents that the Gospel goes out to the Gentile nations only after the 144,000 had been sealed on their foreheads and redeemed from amongst humans as the firstfruits of the harvest who stand with Christ on the sea if glass.
 
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no prophecy is of any private interpretation. You cannot come up with your believes any other way. It is not in the text.

You need to prove why you believe it is a private interpretation. How did you test it? How can you present a well reasoned response to prove your claim?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Brian Mcnamee said:
Seems like Mark Twain was right,
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
Do not be led into every wind of doctrine.
I like that... I have always taught that it not hard to teach people new correct things... but it is very difficult to "unteach" bad things. Like a building that has a bad foundations. The whole building is then crooked and the higher you build on that bad foundation, the more crooked you get.
The late Derek Prince has a very good series on "Foundational Truth" based on Hebrews 6:1-3 which I would recommend to anyone.
Sounds like the bad foundation and house the Pharisees built up:

Matthew 7:
24 ‘Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock.

26 ‘And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.’
(Luke 6:46-49)

Matthew 23:
37 Jerusalem! Jerusalem! that slayeth the prophets, and stoneth them that have been sent unto her,--how often, would I have gathered thy children, like as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,--and ye would not!
38 Behold! Your house is left to ye a wilderness/desolate!<2048>

Mark 13:
1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings?
Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Acts 4:11
`This is the stone that was set at nought by you--the builders, that became head of a corner;

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated<2049>

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized



;
 
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Revelation seems to disagree. The first resurrection is at the end of the trib. That means there would be none before it.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions the “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29). It occurs on the "last day" and at the "last trump."

You must keep in mind regarding the first resurrection that it happens in stages.
It is the first resurrection, but not the numerically first.
Many (not all) OT (Jerusalem) saints were resurrected as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53.

The next stage of the first resurrection would be those who are dead in Christ during the church age .
From Pentacost till present , 1st Thessalonians 4:16.
This occurs during the rapture 1st Thessalonians 4:17. The dead in Christ then all present living Christians at that time.
This occurs at the rapture and before the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 is referring to the tribulation saints.
 
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BABerean2

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Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These can't be meaning saved people, thus would have to be the unsaved. The time frame for verse 16 is obviously post the time frame in verse 2 and 12. As of now, the present time we are living in, when has verse 12 ever come to pass?

But if none of the unsaved remain once the 2nd coming occurs, why is the prophet Zechariah contradicting that?

Do you think Christ was wrong in Matthew 25:1-13, and do you think Paul was wrong in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, based on your own personal interpretation of Zechariah chapter 14 ?

Christ and Paul agree.

Somebody has to be wrong...

.
 
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You must keep in mind regarding the first resurrection that it happens in stages.
It is the first resurrection, but not the numerically first.
Many (not all) OT (Jerusalem) saints were resurrected as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53.

The next stage of the first resurrection would be those who are dead in Christ during the church age .
From Pentacost till present , 1st Thessalonians 4:16.
This occurs during the rapture 1st Thessalonians 4:17. The dead in Christ then all present living Christians at that time.
This occurs at the rapture and before the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 is referring to the tribulation saints.
Not sure I buy into the "stages" concept. I understand what you are saying... I was pre trib from 1971 through 1979 or so.
 
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