Am I Born Again?

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Christ is the real Rest, the real Promised Land, the real Kingdom. Good thing the Bible doesn't contradict itself when it teaches how to enter.

It's a good thing the Bible never contradicts itself:

Numbers 12:24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

John 3:5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Christ is a person. He is God. The Son of God. Come in the flesh, then crucified on a Cross, risen, then seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven. He is a person. We are in Him if we have His Spirit, by sharing in His nature and by having new life in Him. That is what the Bible teaches us.

Caleb was a person in the Old Testament, who was not God. God did not send the spirit of Caleb to us. He sent us His own Spirit. The Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the spirit of Caleb does not lead to salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit does.

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
Christ is a person. He is God. The Son of God. Come in the flesh, then crucified on a Cross, risen, then seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven. He is a person. We are in Him if we have His Spirit, by sharing in His nature and by having new life in Him. That is what the Bible teaches us.

Caleb was a person in the Old Testament, who was not God. God did not send the spirit of Caleb to us. He sent us His own Spirit. The Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the spirit of Caleb does not lead to salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit does.

The rest of Israel have a parallel in Judas. So the command is not to be like Israel but like Caleb. That's the sense in English.

Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

Matthew 11:28Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
The rest of Israel have a parallel in Judas. So the command is not to be like Israel but like Caleb. That's the sense in English.

Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

Do you believe that only those who are homeless without a job will enter God's rest? Btw, how can you post messages on here without any possessions?

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
Do you believe that only those who are homeless without a job will enter God's rest? Btw, how can you post messages on here without any possessions?

The challenge is to give up everything and follow Christ in order to be fulfilled, completed, perfected by entering Rest.

Every Christian should know that a Rest remains to be entered. If it were not so, David would not have written that there remains a rest that was not available tho Joshua, but is available now.

Knowing that the challenge will eventually come, provided you had the right baptism, were shown the Way, to pick up your cross daily, and agreed, you should either gather what is necessary to meet the challenge, build the tower or whilst the enemy is far away, ask for terms of peace.

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
The challenge is to give up everything and follow Christ in order to be fulfilled, completed, perfected by entering Rest.

Every Christian should know that a Rest remains to be entered. If it were not so, David would not have written that there remains a rest that was not available tho Joshua, but is available now.

Knowing that the challenge will eventually come, provided you had the right baptism, were shown the Way, to pick up your cross daily, and agreed, you should either gather what is necessary to meet the challenge, build the tower or whilst the enemy is far away, ask for terms of peace.

All that is true, except not in the way you think it is. Because it is not about money. It is not about giving up all material possessions, though many false prophets have claimed that it is. The rest is what comes when we rely completely on Christ in every circumstance, whether rich or poor, whether in times of joy or times of suffering. And it is not a challenge, it's actually the opposite, it's ceasing to strive in the flesh, giving up all of our pride (self-sufficiency) and surrendering to Christ and the Holy Spirit completely.

Philippians 4:10-13
10. I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it.
11. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.
12. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
13. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Will you answer my questions?

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
All that is true, except not in the way you think it is. Because it is not about money. It is not about giving up materialism, though many false prophets have claimed that it is. The rest is what comes when we rely completely on Christ in every circumstance, whether rich or poor, whether in times of joy or times of suffering. And it is not a challenge, it's actually the opposite, it's ceasing to strive in the flesh, giving up all of our pride (self-sufficiency) and surrendering to Christ and the Holy Spirit completely.

Philippians 4:10-13
10. I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it.
11. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.
12. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
13. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Will you answer my questions?

To clarify what I mean: we enter into His rest when we stop trying to earn our salvation, and instead surrender everything to the Lordship of Christ, living our lives in Him and no longer in the flesh. When we trust Him in everything we do, give Him all control and stop trying to be our own gods.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
To clarify what I mean: we enter into His rest when we stop trying to earn our salvation, and instead surrender everything to the Lordship of Christ, living our lives in Him and no longer in the flesh. When we trust Him in everything we do, give Him all control and stop trying to be our own gods.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

That rest is entered by a change of mindset. Caleb drank from the Rock and agreed. The rest of Israel drank from the same Rock, but were afraid.

Caleb entered Rest, Israel did not. The reason? Caleb trusted God, Israel panicked. So it depends on you. You can depend on God to help you fight Amalekites, but to get that help you need to trust...

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
That rest is entered by a change of mindset. Caleb drank from the Rock and agreed. The rest of Israel drank from the same Rock, but were afraid.

Caleb entered Rest, Israel did not. The reason? Caleb trusted God, Israel panicked. So it depends on you. You can depend on God to help you fight Amalekites, but to get that help you need to trust...

Will you answer my questions?

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
All that is true, except not in the way you think it is. Because it is not about money. It is not about giving up all material possessions, though many false prophets have claimed that it is. The rest is what comes when we rely completely on Christ in every circumstance, whether rich or poor, whether in times of joy or times of suffering. And it is not a challenge, it's actually the opposite, it's ceasing to strive in the flesh, giving up all of our pride (self-sufficiency) and surrendering to Christ and the Holy Spirit completely.

Philippians 4:10-13
10. I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it.
11. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.
12. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
13. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Will you answer my questions?

The clue is in Christ's words: "With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". This means that if the rich young ruler had confessed it was impossible for him to stop trusting in wealth and begged God to separate him from his dependency, God would have made it possible.

In James 1, the writer calls this a humiliation. So shameful to admit that something has such a great power over you that you are helpless to overcome it. You need God to do it. Well if you beg Him, He will melt your wealth away. But it's still humiliating. It's like going into rehab because you don't have the strength to go cold turkey.

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
The clue is in Christ's words: "With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". This means that if the rich young ruler had confessed it was impossible for him to stop trusting in wealth and begged God to separate him from his dependency, God would have made it possible.

In James 1, the writer calls this a humiliation. So shameful to admit that something has such a great power over you that you are helpless to overcome it. You need God to do it. Well if you beg Him, He will melt your wealth away. But it's still humiliating. It's like going into rehab because you don't have the strength to go cold turkey.

But God doesn't require of us to give up all of our material possessions, which Paul proves to us over and over. It is delusion to believe that He has, and it is the way the natural minds perceives what God has spoken to us which cannot be understood by the natural mind. It has to be discerned by the Spirit and with our renewed minds. Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural mind sees money as the root of all evil, but the spiritual mind sees the love of money (greed) as the root of all evil, because we understand that it is selfishness. It is our fleshly desires that we have to crucify by the Spirit. The flesh can easily give up material possessions and feel a lot of pride over it, and many people fall into this trap. But by the Holy Spirit we crucify the flesh, and its desires with it. God doesn't have to melt the wealth away, He only has to overcome the sin of greed for us and then give us wisdom about how to handle the provision that He gives us. You are keeping your eyes on the world instead of keeping your eyes on Christ. And you are relying on the flesh instead of on the Spirit. What you are saying is that we should only look to God to change our natural circumstances when we cannot give up our material possessions by our own strength. That is the opposite of what Jesus told us. What we should do is to fix our eyes on Him and let Him be our strength in every circumstance. Don't ask Him to change the circumstances, ask Him to change you! (If you can't, then that is pride that you are feeling and you have to get on your knees and beg God to remove that!)

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
But God doesn't require of us to give up all of our material possessions, which Paul proves to us over and over. It is delusion to believe that He has, and it is the way the natural minds perceives what God has spoken to us which cannot be understood by the natural mind. It has to be discerned by the Spirit and with our renewed minds. Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural mind sees money as the root of all evil, but the spiritual mind sees the love of money (greed) as the root of all evil, because we understand that it is selfishness. It is our fleshly desires that we have to crucify by the Spirit. The flesh can easily give up material possessions and feel a lot of pride over it, and many people fall into this trap. But by the Holy Spirit we crucify the flesh, and its desires with it. God doesn't have to melt the wealth away, He only has to overcome the sin of greed for us and then give us wisdom about how to handle the provision that He gives us. You are keeping your eyes on the world instead of keeping your eyes on Christ. And you are relying on the flesh instead of on the Spirit. What you are saying is that we should only look to God to change our natural circumstances when we cannot give up our material possessions by our own strength. That is the opposite of what Jesus told us. What we should do is to fix our eyes on Him and let Him be our strength in every circumstance. Don't ask Him to change the circumstances, ask Him to change you! (If you can't, then that is pride that you are feeling and you have to get on your knees and beg God to remove that!)

Then why were the believers placing their wealth at Peter's feet?

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Then why were the believers placing their wealth at Peter's feet?

I answered this earlier to you. I quoted Acts 4:32 and told you that I felt like the money I have belongs to God.

Acts 4:32-35.
"32. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all
34. that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35. and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

This is about sharing the money that God provides for us with our brothers and sisters. It is not about giving up our possessions, it is about being generous and about understanding that everything we do is for God, and to provide for others, and not mainly for ourselves. Read Isaiah 58 carefully!

Then see all the other verses that we have posted to you:

"Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need." Ephesians 4:28

"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5:8

If someone is refusing to work to earn their living that is the same thing as working but not sharing. Both things are greed, and not working is worse, because then you are relying on others to provide for you (stealing) and you are not caring for your family (biological or the Church) and you are not sharing with those who are in need. That is why Paul said "worse than an unbeliever". At least gentiles are providing for their families financially. And that is the right thing to do. But we are also commanded to care for the poor and for each other.

Aldebaran · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
I commented your friend should not have said what he said, that it was not about him. He should have said he had opted to be humble, admitted he did not have the strength to abandon mammon and asked for terms of peace, a compromise.

If you don't have any idea how a compromise is possible, that's okay. Anyone else?

I still don't understand how this relates to what I said. Do you believe that a person should quit their job, or just work without pay, in order to not be serving mammon?

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Emli said:
I answered this earlier to you. I quoted Acts 4:32 and told you that I felt like the money I have belongs to God.

Acts 4:32-35.
"32. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all
34. that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35. and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need."

This is about sharing the money that God provides for us with our brothers and sisters. It is not about giving up our possessions, it is about being generous and about understanding that everything we do is for God, and to provide for others, and not mainly for ourselves. Read Isaiah 58 carefully!

Then see all the other verses that we have posted to you:

"Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need." Ephesians 4:28

"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5:8

If someone is refusing to work to earn their living that is the same thing as working but not sharing. Both things are greed, and not working is worse, because then you are relying on others to provide for you (stealing) and you are not caring for your family (biological or the Church) and you are not sharing with those who are in need. That is why Paul said "worse than an unbeliever". At least gentiles are providing for their families financially. And that is the right thing to do. But we are also commanded to care for the poor and for each other.

I'm sorry but you can't escape the fact that believers are asked to choose between mammon and God. Jesus interpreted that as abandoning mammon and following Him. No one can be saved unless they do that, if being a disciple means being saved. Which God will do because what is impossible with man is possible with God. You haven't even asked God to do the impossible, it seems.

Aldebaran · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
I'm sorry but you can't escape the fact that believers are asked to choose between mammon and God. Jesus interpreted that as abandoning mammon and following Him. No one can be saved unless they do that, if being a disciple means being saved. Which God will do because what is impossible with man is possible with God. You haven't even asked God to do the impossible, it seems.

Are you saying that we have to give up our job and all possessions or not? Just answer the question and stop dodging it.

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Aldebaran said:
I still don't understand how this relates to what I said. Do you believe that a person should quit their job, or just work without pay, in order to not be serving mammon?

They should choose to leave mammon and follow Christ. That's what Christ said, in order to be fulfilled (perfect means that), reach the goal. Give up everything. Depend on God. Like Israel was asked to give up caring about bodily harm and go fight the Amalekites. Like Abraham was asked to give up caring about Isaac. You can't deny that Caleb responded correctly and entered the Promised Land, a type of Christ, the Kingdom of God.

As an aside, it was very important for Israel to live in the Promised Land. It was like a source of life for her, just like some object is assigned to be very important for a graphic novel superhero. God thought so too. He wouldn't allow a surrogate population to live in the Land, sending lions to kill the alien population. They had to become Jews.

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
I'm sorry but you can't escape the fact that believers are asked to choose between mammon and God. Jesus interpreted that as abandoning mammon and following Him. No one can be saved unless they do that, if being a disciple means being saved. Which God will do because what is impossible with man is possible with God. You haven't even asked God to do the impossible, it seems.

You have built a doctrine on a few misinterpreted verses, and you are refusing to listen to everything else that God has said. Jesus did not interpret that as abandoning money and serving Him. Jesus did not interpret anything. Jesus is God. He is Truth. He gave us commandments, not interpretations.

Serving mammon = having money as your master. Serving God = having Him as your Master, and using the money that He has provided for you according to His will. Because in Him you have self-control and neither money nor sin or anything else will be your master.

If you are in Christ, you will be able to make wise decisions with worldly wealth. Luke 16:9

Is it impossible for me to give up all my possessions? 1 Corinthians 13:3. No, because a lot of people do it to boast. So why ask God for something I could do on my own?

Asking for the impossible would be to ask Him to stop a snowstorm and then watch Him do so, then command the rain to stop in His name. To heal the sick and cast out demons. To love the unlovable and be patient with those who are stubborn. To conquer all of my pride and rebellion by the Spirit, and stop me from making foolish mistakes. Have you asked God to do the impossible?

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
They should choose to leave mammon and follow Christ. That's what Christ said, in order to be fulfilled (perfect means that), reach the goal. Give up everything. Depend on God. Like Israel was asked to give up caring about bodily harm and go fight the Amalekites. Like Abraham was asked to give up caring about Isaac. You can't deny that Caleb responded correctly and entered the Promised Land, a type of Christ, the Kingdom of God.

As an aside, it was very important for Israel to live in the Promised Land. It was like a source of life for her, just like some object is assigned to be very important for a graphic novel superhero. God thought so too. He wouldn't allow a surrogate population to live in the Land, sending lions to kill the alien population. They had to become Jews.

"a type of Christ"
What do you think that Christ means?

Wordkeeper · Oct 16, 2018

Aldebaran said:
Are you saying that we have to give up our job and all possessions or not? Just answer the question and stop dodging it.

You haven't activated the New Covenant yet, so can you ask what the terms and conditions are? These things are inter dependent. If you activate it, by saying the world is rubbish, God is great, and so are His works (you can't even witness His works unless you cry out from Egypt, express disgust with the world system) then you get to drink from the Rock, see the Way of Christ, pick up crosses, be rescued, daily. Then you know God is going to call. If you hear His voice...

Wait, before that happens, count the cost, see if you have the strength...

Emli · Oct 16, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
You haven't activated the New Covenant yet, so can you ask what the terms and conditions are? These things are inter dependent. If you activate it, by saying the world is rubbish, God is great, and so are His works (you can't even witness His works unless you cry out from Egypt, express disgust with the world system) then you get to drink from the Rock, see the Way of Christ, pick up crosses, be rescued, daily. Then you know God is going to call. If you hear His voice...

Wait, before that happens, count the cost, see if you have the strength...

"see if you have the strength"
The only way we can ever be in Christ is to stop relying on our strength. No one has what it takes, which is why we need Him.

Do you see the Gospel as some sort of superhero comic?

Am I Born Again?

Am I Born Again?

Yes

No

Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

Growing daughter of God

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Growing daughter of God

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