Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

All4Christ said:

Yes, that’s what I meant....ultimately in the ecumenical patriarchate (EP) and under Constantinople.

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The thing is, I don't think HH Bartholomew made this decision with the knowledge and consent of his wider synod. I suspect there are a lot of bishops within the patriarchate who are less than happy with what he has done.
He has the Constantinople synod who are titular bishops only, and don't actually oversee a flock of their own. They only serve, in my opinion, to stack the deck in his favour, but I find it hard to consider them as actual bishops.

prodromos said:

The thing is, I don't think HH Bartholomew made this decision with the knowledge and consent of his wider synod. I suspect there are a lot of bishops within the patriarchate who are less than happy with what he has done.
He has the Constantinople synod who are titular bishops only, and don't actually oversee a flock of their own. They only serve, in my opinion, to stack the deck in his favour, but I find it hard to consider them as actual bishops.

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You dont have to if you attend a Russian Church. Bartholomew is basically an excommunicated former bishop now.

buzuxi02 said:

You dont have to if you attend a Russian Church. Bartholomew is basically an excommunicated former bishop now.

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He is a bishop under sentence, but he is still a bishop.

So, are the laity included in this separation of Communion? If so, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the non-Greek parishes under the EP in North America go to other jurisdictions. GOARCH could go back to being Church of Greece, but we shall see.

abacabb3 said:

I really wonder if Russia is going to get a council going. THey have support from the Patriarchs (other than Bartholomew). Then, what happens? DO we finally get an infallible definition of ecclesiology? And, does that make reunion with Rome pretty much impossible?

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Russia certainly has the will and the pull to call a council. Not to mention the moral high ground. I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the Church actually attends it.

gzt said:

So the last time this happened, 1996, people just waited it out.

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What happened then?

E.C. said:

So, are the laity included in this separation of Communion? If so, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the non-Greek parishes under the EP in North America go to other jurisdictions. GOARCH could go back to

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Laity from ROCOR/MP are no longer allowed to commune in any parish under the EP. As far as parishes leaving the EP fold highly unlikely. I've always felt it was a mistake for the Church of Greece to leave North America. But their pretense will never return.

buzuxi02 said:

Laity from ROCOR/MP are no longer allowed to commune in any parish under the EP. As far as parishes leaving the EP fold highly unlikely. I've always felt it was a mistake for the Church of Greece to leave North America. But their pretense will never return.

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I wouldn't be surprised if the Jerusalem parishes tried or some convert heavy parishes tried. The Jerusalem parishes didn't even want to go EP in the first place because of the calendar difference. There is a mostly convert GOARCH mission north of Seattle that hates being GOARCH because of how the bishop treats them for not worshipping in Greek. There's quite a few GOARCH parishes in similar situations.

I was just reading HH Bartholomew's address at the close of the Synaxis of the Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne on September 3, and I wonder just how he expects his current actions to tie in with what he said one month ago?

AMM said:

If a council is called, do you think it's probable that it will address the US situation and potentially order that the various jurisdictions unify?

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Honestly no, but it definitely opens up the conversation. If the council condemns multiple jurisdictions in Ukraine, then why does the US still have them? SO, it might get the ball rolling.

AMM said:

If Constantinople continues in this way even after a council, would the Church appoint a new bishop of Constantinople or would it just cease to be an Orthodox See (like Rome)?

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Being that no local council has nominated a new Bishop of Constantinople, I think that Constantinople would be excommunicated and there would be no replacement.

prodromos said:

I was just reading HH Bartholomew's address at the close of the Synaxis of the Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne on September 3, and I wonder just how he expects his current actions to tie in with what he said one month ago?

We are striving for the unity and stability of Orthodoxy as well as for a common ecclesial witness. During this Synaxis, we have extensively discussed inter-Orthodox matters. The Ecumenical Patriarchate—being responsible for the safeguarding of unity, but also the coordination of inter-Orthodox relations and pan-Orthodox initiatives—carries out this sacred ministry in the Orthodox world, faithfully adhering to the unshakable ecclesiological and canonical principles of the Tradition of our Fathers.​

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I think EP has been reading into and believing too much of the Western media that paints him as an Orthodox pope.

E.C. said:

Russia certainly has the will and the pull to call a council. Not to mention the moral high ground. I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the Church actually attends it.

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E.C. said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Jerusalem parishes tried or some convert heavy parishes tried. The Jerusalem parishes didn't even want to go EP in the first place because of the calendar difference. There is a mostly convert GOARCH mission north of Seattle that hates being GOARCH because of how the bishop treats them for not worshipping in Greek. There's quite a few GOARCH parishes in similar situations.

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That's possible. Of course there are other legal issues with transferring. The EP will never freely give permission for a canonical transfer. It can then only be done if the diocese does not hold the deed. (I mean if they all left the parish to start a new one but dont see that)

prodromos said:

I was just reading HH Bartholomew's address at the close of the Synaxis of the Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne on September 3, and I wonder just how he expects his current actions to tie in with what he said one month ago?

We are striving for the unity and stability of Orthodoxy as well as for a common ecclesial witness. During this Synaxis, we have extensively discussed inter-Orthodox matters. The Ecumenical Patriarchate—being responsible for the safeguarding of unity, but also the coordination of inter-Orthodox relations and pan-Orthodox initiatives—carries out this sacred ministry in the Orthodox world, faithfully adhering to the unshakable ecclesiological and canonical principles of the Tradition of our Fathers.​

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Hollow words. I seriously dont think the EP even wants to be Orthodox anymore. He refuses to attend pan-Orthodox meetings when invited but sure loves going to the vatican.

buzuxi02 said:

That's possible. Of course there are other legal issues with transferring. The EP will never freely give permission for a canonical transfer. It can then only be done if the diocese does not hold the deed. (I mean if they all left the parish to start a new one but dont see that)

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Typically, at least in the OCA, the individual parishes hold the deed and are their own non-profit legal entities with the parish council being the board of directors. It is possible, but I agree not likely. It depends on how badly this will effect us here in North America first. The jurisdictions here would first have to take sides and enforce the decisions of their respective synods

Part of why many Roman Catholic dioceses became bankrupt from sex abuse lawsuits is because in their organization the parish is a sub-entity of the diocese. This means that when someone wants to sue for something a parish priest did than the diocese gets sued instead of the parish. Some of that is changing because parishes that didn't have those problems don't want to lose their buildings as a side effect of said lawsuits.

prodromos said:

The thing is, I don't think HH Bartholomew made this decision with the knowledge and consent of his wider synod. I suspect there are a lot of bishops within the patriarchate who are less than happy with what he has done.
He has the Constantinople synod who are titular bishops only, and don't actually oversee a flock of their own. They only serve, in my opinion, to stack the deck in his favour, but I find it hard to consider them as actual bishops.

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I don’t think they do either, but the fact remains that they are affected by the EP’s decisions.

I am unhappy now - I heard talk about a month ago and I know that our deed was transferred to the diocese some years back. Not sure the reason then.

I do love my community, my priest, and the very building as well. I could exist elsewhere as Orthodox but I don't want to see that have to happen.

I'm waiting for an announcement from Archbishop Demetrios, but I'm doubtful that our GOCs will separate from the EP. And if this is the case, this is worrisome that will require my family to make a decision on whether to stay in our parish or leave it.

Dorothea said:

I'm waiting for an announcement from Archbishop Demetrios, but I'm doubtful that our GOCs will separate from the EP. And if this is the case, this is worrisome that will require my family to make a decision on whether to stay in our parish or leave it.

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Yes that is the question...how to determine what to do with that if it isn’t a doctrinal issue.

Just found this article posted on FB. It's announcement from Met. Jonah, and he is spot on, imo. American foreign policy and its actions have been wrong and sinful and on the wrong side of history for several decades. Here's a part of his speech, and I'll put the link below:

“Thousands will die, protesting against American policy translated into violent action by the Ukrainian government. This is a grave sin, for the Ukrainian leadership and their American masters.

Moreover, not content to manipulate the ecclesiastical and political mafiosi of Ukraine, a failing state grasping for power and lacking legitimacy from its people, the State Department and other agencies have injected themselves into the Patriarchate of Constantinople. They have manipulated the elderly Ecumenical Patriarch, either directly or through their proxies, through his greatest weakness: the precarious position of the Patriarchate within Turkey, politically and financially. They would expand his jurisdiction, and have ensured his financial stability with bribes of millions of dollars. They are using and abusing an old man who is trying with all his might to preserve an ancient institution. They have compromised him, and the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and are thereby disrupting not only the Ukraine and its precarious peace, but fostering a schism that will rend the Orthodox world, a community larger than the United States. This is a bitter and cynical move, and profoundly evil.”

MANY THOUSANDS WILL DIE - The Coming Schism in Orthodoxy: "Repent, and Stop This Insanity" - Fort Russ

Met Jonah's announcement is unhinged paranoid nonsense. EDIT: note that I am quite sympathetic to criticisms of US foreign policy, but this is just absurd.

Folks: don't leave your parishes. Seriously.

EDIT: if you're in America, unless you're in a Greek parish and there's a ROCOR parish nearby that you regularly commune at (or vice versa), this has no real effect on you. Don't leave your parish.