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now faith

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Hello to all.
I am stepping back and seeking information, not in one Fourm but as many as I can.
This by no means is a debate, but to ask I have to mention the King James Bible.
I will not reply to responders aimed at debunking it, nor will I promote it.
The questions are based on my understanding ,I will use the timeline of the K.J.V. and the Reformation, along with earlier times and more recent time.
The questions will involve generalisation, and other topic.
 

now faith

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My first Question is about learning and using Greek language, I am not attempting sarcasm.
When I say( you)I am addressing Teachers , Thelogians , Pastors, or anyone who wants to answer.

Why do Thelogians work at mastering Greek language?
Considering the vast amount of translation in English do feel the need to confirm the Bibles you read?
Are you seeking deeper knowlage than exists with existing translation?
Considering that you have studied a vast amount of Greek, do you need different translation with multiple Bibles?
Do you value the Septuagint LXX as your primary reference for the old Testament?
If so, why would the Septuagint be superior to Hebrew to English?
I understand that Koine Greek was the common language , in the time of the New Testament Writing but why was the Septuagint used over other translations?
Paul was a mentor for those who translated his Epistials as well,
Why were these translations disregarded?
Was the Latin Vulgate able to translate words from Hebrew that were untranslatable in Greek?
 
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now faith

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Prior to K.J.V. what was the most accurate translation into English?
Was the Geneva Bible a revised Wycliffes Bible?
Wycliffe promoted the doctrine of predestination, before Calvin, was He a mentor of John Calvin?
What fundemental changes did the Codex Bezea have in the synoptic Gospels and Acts that were different than the K.J.V.?

Who were the main translators from Greek to English Bibles post Reformation ?
Are post Reformation versions different than the major pre Reformation translations ; example Wycliffe, Geneva, Great Bible
KJV?
 
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Tolworth John

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If you are serious at getting answers to these questions you should be researching the history of biblical translation and translators etc.
There you will get books written by experts in these fields rather than a pooling of general biblical knowledge.

Why do Thelogians work at mastering Greek language?
Every language has nuances of meaning that are not easily translated. Theologians want to understand those nuances for themselve to see how they influence a translation.

Are post Reformation versions different than the major pre Reformation translations

Yes and no. Look at the footnotes found in all good translations. They will show you where translations differ and where passages are disputed.
As you wiull see the differences are very small.

Compare different translations in biblegateway and you will see again that word varients are small.
 
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now faith

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If you are serious at getting answers to these questions you should be researching the history of biblical translation and translators etc.
There you will get books written by experts in these fields rather than a pooling of general biblical knowledge.


Every language has nuances of meaning that are not easily translated. Theologians want to understand those nuances for themselve to see how they influence a translation.



Yes and no. Look at the footnotes found in all good translations. They will show you where translations differ and where passages are disputed.
As you wiull see the differences are very small.

Compare different translations in biblegateway and you will see again that word varients are small.

Thank You for your advice.
I have started back to the history books, for a better foundation.
 
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DeaconDean

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Why do Thelogians work at mastering Greek language?

That is how the scriptures came to us.

Considering the vast amount of translation in English do feel the need to confirm the Bibles you read?

In some cases, yes.

Are you seeking deeper knowlage than exists with existing translation?

Yes

Considering that you have studied a vast amount of Greek, do you need different translation with multiple Bibles?

Depends. The Revised Standard Version, unless I'm mistaken, was based mainly on the work of Wescott and Hort. And I'm sure you are aware of the controversy involved with them.

Do you value the Septuagint LXX as your primary reference for the old Testament?

It is a tool, much like a hammer. It is a tool, useful in seeing how some Hebrew words were rendered into the Greek. Its a good source for "Etymology".

If so, why would the Septuagint be superior to Hebrew to English?

Its not. In the first place, about the time the LXX was written, the Hebrew OT writings disappeared. So what we have is 70 men taking the Hebrew and putting it into Greek. What we have today, the MT, comes to us about a millennia after the Hebrew scriptures were lost.

I understand that Koine Greek was the common language , in the time of the New Testament Writing but why was the Septuagint used over other translations?

Because that was the only writings they had at the time.

Paul was a mentor for those who translated his Epistials as well, Why were these translations disregarded?

Not sure what your getting at.

Was the Latin Vulgate able to translate words from Hebrew that were untranslatable in Greek?

As near as I can tell, what we have today, we see back then. The Vulgate, good as it was, was primarily an attempt to translate from the Greek, to the Latin. Hence the word "vulgus" meaning common people." It was an attempt to put the language of the scriptures into the common language(hence the term vulgar) of the people. Which when Jerome wrote it, was "Latin", not "classical Latin" as used in scholarly circles, but the vulgar language (spoken language) of the common Latin people.

Its not bad, for we see in the KJV, some terms taken straight from the Latin Vulgate:

"Numerous English words we see in modern Bibles were practically lifted right out of the Vulgate, including “creation,” “salvation,” “justification,” and “testament.” The word “Lucifer,” a common name for the devil among English speakers, owes its existence to this translation."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Prior to K.J.V. what was the most accurate translation into English?

There wasn't.

Was the Geneva Bible a revised Wycliffes Bible?

In a manner of speaking.

Wycliffe promoted the doctrine of predestination, before Calvin, was He a mentor of John Calvin?
  1. John Wycliffe died quite a while before John Calvin was born. (1385)
  2. John Calvin was born in 1509.
  3. Actually, the first person to "promote" the idea/doctrine of "predestination" was Augustine. (See The Predestination of the Saints, written about AD 428-29.

What fundemental changes did the Codex Bezea have in the synoptic Gospels and Acts that were different than the K.J.V.?

What we see is that the language of the Greek in Codex D, was used in the Gospels. In fact, Mark is considered to be the first gospel written, around AD 65. Mark, as well as John and Matthew, follow the same word usage as Luke did. Our Greek word for "spirit" was one used by Luke first. (pneuma) Now it is debatable as to how Luke's writings influenced John, but its almost sure that it did as far as this particular word is concerned.

George Rice wrote his dissertation based on The Codex D as compared to the Codex Vaticanus. And in comparison, codex D shortens or leaves out words, and/or phrases compared to Codex B.

Who were the main translators from Greek to English Bibles post Reformation ?

Tricky question. The KJV is still the "measuring stick" to most people.

Are post Reformation versions different than the major pre Reformation translations ; example Wycliffe, Geneva, Great Bible
KJV?

Just look at the versions out there today.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Just want to point something out to you brother.

Catholicism denies the doctrine of "imputation".

Nevertheless, the Latin Vulgate says:

"si autem aliquid nocuit tibi aut debet hoc mihi inputa" -Philemon 1:18

"If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;" -Philemon 1:18 (KJV)

Where we get our belief of Christ's righteousness imputed to us, comes from this verse Paul wrote. There it is in the Latin, "imputa" (impute).

Paul says, "charge that to my account". Impute to me, anything that I might owe you.

Ain't that a kicker?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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now faith

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There wasn't.



In a manner of speaking.


  1. John Wycliffe died quite a while before John Calvin was born. (1385)
  2. John Calvin was born in 1509.
  3. Actually, the first person to "promote" the idea/doctrine of "predestination" was Augustine. (See The Predestination of the Saints, written about AD 428-29.



What we see is that the language of the Greek in Codex D, was used in the Gospels. In fact, Mark is considered to be the first gospel written, around AD 65. Mark, as well as John and Matthew, follow the same word usage as Luke did. Our Greek word for "spirit" was one used by Luke first. (pneuma) Now it is debatable as to how Luke's writings influenced John, but its almost sure that it did as far as this particular word is concerned.

George Rice wrote his dissertation based on The Codex D as compared to the Codex Vaticanus. And in comparison, codex D shortens or leaves out words, and/or phrases compared to Codex B.



Tricky question. The KJV is still the "measuring stick" to most people.



Just look at the versions out there today.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hello Deacon glad to see you reply.
The tricky question was to find out if any other groups of language translators, made a contribution that was more studied than Westcott and Hort?
It seems my memory is wrong or somthing has been changed with Wycliffe.
As memory serves his Bible was considered the Geneva Bible.
Now when studying I find 2 text one that is named Wycliffes Bible ,and one Named the Geneva Bible.
John Calvin and Bezea were considered the main influnence on the Geneva Bible.
It could be my sources , I don't know how good Wickipeda is at maintaining continuity.
In reading the synopic Gospels, the book of John is differing in the events and narrative from the others.
 
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DeaconDean

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The tricky question was to find out if any other groups of language translators, made a contribution that was more studied than Westcott and Hort?

That is a tricky question in that what Wescott and Hort introduced, a version based primarily on the Alexandrian text, was very controversial for its time. It's still controversial today.

It seems my memory is wrong or somthing has been changed with Wycliffe.
As memory serves his Bible was considered the Geneva Bible.

Actually, the Geneva Bible came only about 50 years prior to the KJ version. It was the version of the Pilgrims.

Now when studying I find 2 text one that is named Wycliffes Bible ,and one Named the Geneva Bible.

"Wycliffe's Bible is the name now given to a group of Bible translations into Middle English that were made under the direction of John Wycliffe. They appeared over a period from approximately 1382 to 1395."

Source

"The Geneva Bible is one of the most historically significant translations of the Bible into English, preceding the King James Version by 51 years. The Geneva Bible followed the Great Bible of 1539, the first authorised Bible in English, which was the authorized Bible of the Church of England."

Source

John Calvin and Bezea were considered the main influnence on the Geneva Bible.

Not necessarily. There was an awful lot going on during Calvin's time. He wrote his "Institutes:, preaching in Strasbourg; The Servetus controversy, leading Reform in Geneva. He may have, but I am not aware of it. Although Theodore Beza's Codex "D" is believed to have played a part in the KJV, as I have shown in other threads on the KJVOnly controversy, that is doubtful.

It could be my sources , I don't know how good Wickipeda is at maintaining continuity.

In reading the synopic Gospels, the book of John is differing in the events and narrative from the others.

That is true. John also says there were many, many other things Jesus said and taught that if you were to record them all, there wouldn't be enough books to contain them. We know for a fact, that all the Gospels, (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written after the book of Acts was nearly 95% complete. Translating Greek, most schools start with the book of John as it was referred to by my teacher as "baby Greek". Even John, when referencing the Holy Spirit, followed the exact same example as set by Luke in Acts. (cf.: pneuma=Spirit)

Here again, not all the Gospels agree in events and timelines. What I have found doing my research in "Textual Criticism", is that those individuals (scribes) who copied the text, appear to have done some work regarding "harmonization".

Remember, as we grow older, we sometimes forget things, it is suggested that the Gospel of John may have been written very late in his life.

"Morton Enslin observes (Christian Beginnings, pp. 369-370): "That PapiasÂ’ source of information is simply an inference from Mark 10:35-40 or its parallel, Matt. 20:20-23, is possible. None the less, this Marcan passage itself affords solid ground. No reasonable interpretation of these words can deny the high probability that by the time these words were written [ca. 70 CE] both brothers had 'drunk the cup' that Jesus had drunk and had been 'baptized with the baptism' with which he had been baptized." Since the patristic tradition is unanimous in identifying the beloved disciple with John, at least this evidence discredits the patristic tradition concerning the authorship of the Gospel of John.

Robert Kysar writes..."Those who relate the expulsion to a formal effort on the part of Judaism to purge itself of Christian believers link the composition of the gospel with a date soon after the Council of Jamnia, which is supposed to have promulgated such an action. Hence, these scholars would date John after 90. Those inclined to see the expulsion more in terms of an informal action on the part of a local synagogue are free to propose an earlier date."

Source

If you agree to a late date, then that would mean the Gospel of John could have been written about the time of his exile to Patmos. And, if tradition is correct, with John's eyes being "put out", he may have had a scribe himself record his words.

Also, one other explanation may lie in whether or not, John knew or had access to the other Gospels. John may have excluded events that were included in the other gospels, while at the same time, recording events that the others left out.

"John’s Gospel omits a large amount of material found in the synoptic Gospels, including some surprisingly important episodes: the temptation of Jesus, Jesus’ transfiguration, and the institution of the Lord’s supper are not mentioned by John. John mentions no examples of Jesus casting out demons. The sermon on the mount and the Lord’s prayer are not found in the Fourth Gospel. There are no narrative parables in John’s Gospel (most scholars do not regard John 15:1-8 [“the Vine and the Branches”] as a parable in the strict sense).

John also includes a considerable amount of material not found in the synoptics. All the material in John 2—4, Jesus’ early Galilean ministry, is not found in the synoptics. Prior visits of Jesus to Jerusalem before the passion week are mentioned in John but not found in the synoptics. The seventh sign-miracle, the resurrection of Lazarus (John 11) is not mentioned in the synoptics. The extended Farewell Discourse (John 13—17) is not found in the synoptic Gospels.

Two basic positions on the relationship of John’s Gospel to the Synoptics are possible:

  • If John knew of the synoptics, then he wrote to supplement them. (To say John knew of one or more of the synoptics is not to say, however, that he wrote his gospel with copies of Matthew, Mark, and/or Luke in front of him. John may have been aware of the existence of other written accounts of Jesus’ life and ministry without actually having seen them.)
  • If John’s Gospel is totally independent from the synoptics, he had enough material to choose from that much of it does not overlap with the synoptics (cf. Jn 20:30 and 21:25). This point is strengthened considerably if one accepts the Fourth Gospel’s claim to reflect eyewitness testimony about the life and ministry of Jesus (John 21:23-24)."
Source
I tend to believe that John and the Holy Spirit, tended to include material and events that were not included by the other Gospels.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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John Calvin and Bezea were considered the main influnence on the Geneva Bible.

Here is what I found:

"Geneva became an international center for publishing and critical scholarship in the 1550s. Dozens of French and English Bibles were permitted to be printed in Geneva during Calvin’s time, whereas under Mary Tudor’s oppressive reign, use or publication of the Bible in English was prohibited. English exiles streamed to Geneva during the 1550s. By 1555 following the burning of Protestant leader John Rogers at Smithfield in London (Rogers had been seeking to revise Tyndale’s Bible), Marian exiles had little reason to stay in England-and many reasons to seek refuge in Europe. Scholars like Miles Coverdale (an Anglican bishop in exile), John Foxe, Christopher Goodman, Anthony Gilby, William Whittingham and others migrated to Geneva and commenced work on the version which became known as the “breeches Bible” (so called after an odd translation of Genesis 3:7). Whittingham, who eventually returned to serve as Bishop of Durham, settled in Geneva from 1555-1563; he oversaw the first printing of the Geneva Bible in 1560. William Whittingham, a relative of Calvin who also had been an Oxford student with sophisticated skill in Hebrew and Greek, is credited with the New Testament translation of the Geneva Bible, first released on June 10, 1557.

Not only was the Protestant faith insistent in principle on translation of the scriptures into common languages of the day, but Beza (1520-1605), who arrived in Geneva from Lausanne to head Calvin’s academy in 1559, was a bona fide New Testament scholar. He also eventually purchased an early NT manuscript (Codex D (sic) or Cambridge Mss) and used it for his own commentaries on the NT. Beza’s Annotations (published later in 1569) were probably the main inspiration for the “study bible” approach of the Genevan Bible. The donation of his New Testament manuscripts to Cambridge University in 1605 is another token of the close affinity between Genevan Calvinism and the surging British Puritanism of the day.

The Distinguishing Features

Lewis Lupton sets the innovation brought by the Geneva Bible as follows: “Prior to 1557 the usual form of the English Bible was that of a gigantic tome printed in unreadable Gothic, bound in oak and horse leather, and chained up in church; about as portable as Stonehenge!” All that was about to change a few years before Calvin’s death.

Several noteworthy technical features distinguish this 1560 Bible. The preface to this edition contained a 16-page letter-and endorsement, of course, by John Calvin-which summarized biblical religion. Miles Coverdale, with Anthony Gilby taking the lead, and others assisted in revising the Old Testament; and by April [10th] 1560, the first edition of the Geneva Bible was published by fellow Marian exile John Bodley, who later returned to England to found one of the world’s greatest libraries in Oxford. Interestingly, the dedication of the first edition was to “the most virtuous and noble Queen Elisabeth,” and even in the introduction characteristically anti-Romanist sentiments are exhibited.

This Bible was the first to employ numbering of verses within chapters-certainly designed to aid common readers. It also used a Roman typeface, instead of the more medieval Gothic script. And it included annotations and maps to assist the reader. At the close of the NT was a glossary to aid in the pronunciation of OT names. Of interest, readers were encouraged to avail themselves to those names for their children, hoping to serve as “godlie aduertisements” or “memorials and markes” as witnesses against the “signes and badges of idolatrie and heathenish impietie.” Moreover, the early editions also contained a dictionary, a chronology of the years from Adam to Christ, a chronology of the life of Paul, and later editions contained metrical psalms for use in family and corporate worship. This was a genuine study Bible, the first in that genre-all with a view toward educating the laity and faithfully translating from the original manuscripts.

The size of the Geneva Bible was distinctive, as well; it was roughly 6 x 9 inches (quarto instead of the larger and unwieldy, albeit more traditional folio size) and priced affordably. Some octavo editions, which could be carried in a large pocket, were also printed, making this one of the first Bibles of the people.

King James I pronounced the Geneva Bible marginal notes as being: “partial, untrue, seditious, and savouring of dangerous and traitorous conceits.” Notwithstanding, the KJV did not hesitate to borrow certain expressions from this earlier work, even quoting from it in its own introduction in 1611.

The fingerprints of Geneva Calvinism are also clear in several other ways. First, the marginal glosses exhibited the beliefs of Calvin, particularly if one consults the notes on Romans 8-9 and elsewhere. However, as most later scholars observed this was not so heavy-handed as to repulse other readers. Second, editions of the Geneva Bible just after Calvin’s death (1568-1570) included Calvin’s Catechism in English with 373 questions. This Catechism, prepared for Genevans in the 1540s took up over 30 pages in these editions and provided privileged status for that commentary. Third, some later editions (between 1579 and 1615) went so far as to include Calvin’s catechism on predestination (with 23 questions), which would eventually replace the Apocryphal section between the testaments.

The Geneva Bible was also decidedly anti-Romanist and interpreted the Pope as the reference of several verses in the Revelation (11:7; 13:11; and 17:4). That being the case, the Apocrypha would only survive in a few of the earliest versions."

Full article here.

So saying that Calvin influenced the Geneva Bible, (Greek MSS) no. Did it carry Calvinist influences? Partially. (Catechisms, notes, etc.)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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now faith

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Here is what I found:

"Geneva became an international center for publishing and critical scholarship in the 1550s. Dozens of French and English Bibles were permitted to be printed in Geneva during Calvin’s time, whereas under Mary Tudor’s oppressive reign, use or publication of the Bible in English was prohibited. English exiles streamed to Geneva during the 1550s. By 1555 following the burning of Protestant leader John Rogers at Smithfield in London (Rogers had been seeking to revise Tyndale’s Bible), Marian exiles had little reason to stay in England-and many reasons to seek refuge in Europe. Scholars like Miles Coverdale (an Anglican bishop in exile), John Foxe, Christopher Goodman, Anthony Gilby, William Whittingham and others migrated to Geneva and commenced work on the version which became known as the “breeches Bible” (so called after an odd translation of Genesis 3:7). Whittingham, who eventually returned to serve as Bishop of Durham, settled in Geneva from 1555-1563; he oversaw the first printing of the Geneva Bible in 1560. William Whittingham, a relative of Calvin who also had been an Oxford student with sophisticated skill in Hebrew and Greek, is credited with the New Testament translation of the Geneva Bible, first released on June 10, 1557.

Not only was the Protestant faith insistent in principle on translation of the scriptures into common languages of the day, but Beza (1520-1605), who arrived in Geneva from Lausanne to head Calvin’s academy in 1559, was a bona fide New Testament scholar. He also eventually purchased an early NT manuscript (Codex D (sic) or Cambridge Mss) and used it for his own commentaries on the NT. Beza’s Annotations (published later in 1569) were probably the main inspiration for the “study bible” approach of the Genevan Bible. The donation of his New Testament manuscripts to Cambridge University in 1605 is another token of the close affinity between Genevan Calvinism and the surging British Puritanism of the day.

The Distinguishing Features

Lewis Lupton sets the innovation brought by the Geneva Bible as follows: “Prior to 1557 the usual form of the English Bible was that of a gigantic tome printed in unreadable Gothic, bound in oak and horse leather, and chained up in church; about as portable as Stonehenge!” All that was about to change a few years before Calvin’s death.

Several noteworthy technical features distinguish this 1560 Bible. The preface to this edition contained a 16-page letter-and endorsement, of course, by John Calvin-which summarized biblical religion. Miles Coverdale, with Anthony Gilby taking the lead, and others assisted in revising the Old Testament; and by April [10th] 1560, the first edition of the Geneva Bible was published by fellow Marian exile John Bodley, who later returned to England to found one of the world’s greatest libraries in Oxford. Interestingly, the dedication of the first edition was to “the most virtuous and noble Queen Elisabeth,” and even in the introduction characteristically anti-Romanist sentiments are exhibited.

This Bible was the first to employ numbering of verses within chapters-certainly designed to aid common readers. It also used a Roman typeface, instead of the more medieval Gothic script. And it included annotations and maps to assist the reader. At the close of the NT was a glossary to aid in the pronunciation of OT names. Of interest, readers were encouraged to avail themselves to those names for their children, hoping to serve as “godlie aduertisements” or “memorials and markes” as witnesses against the “signes and badges of idolatrie and heathenish impietie.” Moreover, the early editions also contained a dictionary, a chronology of the years from Adam to Christ, a chronology of the life of Paul, and later editions contained metrical psalms for use in family and corporate worship. This was a genuine study Bible, the first in that genre-all with a view toward educating the laity and faithfully translating from the original manuscripts.

The size of the Geneva Bible was distinctive, as well; it was roughly 6 x 9 inches (quarto instead of the larger and unwieldy, albeit more traditional folio size) and priced affordably. Some octavo editions, which could be carried in a large pocket, were also printed, making this one of the first Bibles of the people.

King James I pronounced the Geneva Bible marginal notes as being: “partial, untrue, seditious, and savouring of dangerous and traitorous conceits.” Notwithstanding, the KJV did not hesitate to borrow certain expressions from this earlier work, even quoting from it in its own introduction in 1611.

The fingerprints of Geneva Calvinism are also clear in several other ways. First, the marginal glosses exhibited the beliefs of Calvin, particularly if one consults the notes on Romans 8-9 and elsewhere. However, as most later scholars observed this was not so heavy-handed as to repulse other readers. Second, editions of the Geneva Bible just after Calvin’s death (1568-1570) included Calvin’s Catechism in English with 373 questions. This Catechism, prepared for Genevans in the 1540s took up over 30 pages in these editions and provided privileged status for that commentary. Third, some later editions (between 1579 and 1615) went so far as to include Calvin’s catechism on predestination (with 23 questions), which would eventually replace the Apocryphal section between the testaments.

The Geneva Bible was also decidedly anti-Romanist and interpreted the Pope as the reference of several verses in the Revelation (11:7; 13:11; and 17:4). That being the case, the Apocrypha would only survive in a few of the earliest versions."

Full article here.

So saying that Calvin influenced the Geneva Bible, (Greek MSS) no. Did it carry Calvinist influences? Partially. (Catechisms, notes, etc.)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nice work Deacon,this is what we need to be doing.
 
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