Physical Kingdom Problems

Dave L

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Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.
 
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Ken Rank

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Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan rakes havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.
Perhaps the problem you have in reconciling this starts with assuming there is a rapture that takes people to heaven. Philip was raptured, he went horizontal, not vertical. And if the cloud in the wilderness was God's presence with His Israel... then Jesus coming in a cloud means a white puffy cumulus he rides on... or is a reference to a manner in which God has made His presence known beforehand? I certainly think the latter.

You know, the Jehovah Witnesses have a lot wrong with their doctrine, but their notion that we don't go to heaven is biblical. The meek inherit the EARTH Dave, not heaven. Heaven was not made for man which is why God will renew the earth for us to live on.

I would revisit the rapture theory.
 
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Dave L

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Perhaps the problem you have in reconciling this starts with assuming there is a rapture that takes people to heaven. Philip was raptured, he went horizontal, not vertical. And if the cloud in the wilderness was God's presence with His Israel... then Jesus coming in a cloud means a white puffy cumulus he rides on... or is a reference to a manner in which God has made His presence known beforehand? I certainly think the latter.

You know, the Jehovah Witnesses have a lot wrong with their doctrine, but their notion that we don't go to heaven is biblical. The meek inherit the EARTH Dave, not heaven. Heaven was not made for man which is why God will renew the earth for us to live on.

I would revisit the rapture theory.
Scripture mentions only one rapture. It happens after the resurrection on the last day.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
 
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HTacianas

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Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan rakes havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

Add to that the idea that Jesus would be physically sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.

It's easy enough for someone to reject a spiritual kingdom, or rebel against a spiritual god, but what of the rebellion at the end of the millennium?

It's often difficult for some to believe in God, mostly because they can't see Him. How many would refuse to believe, or cease believing, if He was physically right there?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Scripture mentions only one rapture. It happens after the resurrection on the last day.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
I have disagreed with Dave on certain items. But he is correct here. The FIRST Resurrection (there are none before it) occurs on the LAST day (before the millennium) at the sounding of the LAST (of a series of) trump(s).
 
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Dave L

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I have disagreed with Dave on certain items. But he is correct here. The FIRST Resurrection (there are none before it) occurs on the LAST day (before the millennium) at the sounding of the LAST (of a series of) trump(s).
I agree with you too, but there is no physical millennium. What happens on the last day after the rapture is the meltdown of the universe according to Peter, and the New Heavens and Earth take its place with us in it forever. Not just a measly 1000 years of sickness and death.
 
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Ken Rank

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Scripture mentions only one rapture. It happens after the resurrection on the last day.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
No, that simply isn't true, Dave. Scripture doesn't mention only one rapture... when Philip was with the Eunuch it says the spirit caught him away and, when you look on a map, you see he showed up about 20 miles away. The word for caught way is harpazo... the word we would translate as rapture.
 
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Dave L

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No, that simply isn't true, Dave. Scripture doesn't mention only one rapture... when Philip was with the Eunuch it says the spirit caught him away and, when you look on a map, you see he showed up about 20 miles away. The word for caught way is harpazo... the word we would translate as rapture.
We are talking about The Rapture, not Elijah, Philip, Enoch etc. Scripture directly mentions only one.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
 
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Ken Rank

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We are talking about The Rapture, not Elijah, Philip, Enoch etc. Scripture directly mentions only one.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
No, Scripture mentions MANY and not all are vertical. Just because you don't want to factor in the more than one because it messes with your theology is your problem, not mine! You also might want to look at the LXX and see how and where harpazo is used. You might begin to realize that we here in the west have taken great liberties with that word.

I don't believe we get raptured to heaven, David. I believe that if we get raptured at all, it is horizontal and we take place in the prophesied second exodus. Those "taken" that are mentioned in the gospels are killed, their bodies are being consumed by scavenger birds. I prefer to be left behind... just like Noah and Lot were!
 
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Dave L

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No, Scripture mentions MANY and not all are vertical. Just because you don't want to factor in the more than one because it messes with your theology is your problem, not mine! You also might want to look at the LXX and see how and where harpazo is used. You might begin to realize that we here in the west have taken great liberties with that word.

I don't believe we get raptured to heaven, David. I believe that if we get raptured at all, it is horizontal and we take place in the prophesied second exodus. Those "taken" that are mentioned in the gospels are killed, their bodies are being consumed by scavenger birds. I prefer to be left behind... just like Noah and Lot were!
Let's see direct quotes from scripture for more than one Rapture taking place anytime now before the end of the world. All speculation is nothing more than false prophecy.
 
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Dave L

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Let's see direct quotes from scripture for more than one Rapture taking place anytime now before the end of the world. All speculation is nothing more than false prophecy.
Don't feel bad, even the top professors of Dispensationalism cannot produce any more than theory to support their claims.
 
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Ken Rank

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Let's see direct quotes from scripture for more than one Rapture taking place anytime now before the end of the world. All speculation is nothing more than false prophecy.
I just gave you one, Philip and the Eunuch. You do have a bible? Do I need to give you the verses? It says very plainly in the Greek that he was RAPTURED, harpazo... the word for rapture. So there isn't just "one" no matter how many times you want to say it.

And by the way...the word for "new" when it says, "new heavens and earth" is also kainos. God is going to renew the Earth, restore it... not destroy it and start over with a brand new never before seen Earth!
 
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Dave L

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I just gave you one, Philip and the Eunuch. You do have a bible? Do I need to give you the verses? It says very plainly in the Greek that he was RAPTURED, harpazo... the word for rapture. So there isn't just "one" no matter how many times you want to say it.

And by the way...the word for "new" when it says, "new heavens and earth" is also kainos. God is going to renew the Earth, restore it... not destroy it and start over with a brand new never before seen Earth!
This is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a mass translation of the saints referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, taking place more than once besides at the end of the world.
 
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Ken Rank

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This is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a mass translation of the saints referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, taking place more than once besides at the end of the world.
Again, you miss the point. You are using those verses to assume a trip to heaven. Philip's event shows us that harpazo doesn't have to be vertical AND I mentioned doing a search in the LXX because it will become inarguable that harpazo probably meant vertically anyway. Heaven isn't made for man, Dave... God made the Earth for man. We inherit the earth not heaven! That point skews the rest of your end time view which BY THE WAY... isn't even the end time. The word for end is telos, is means completion but also GOAL. We should be excited about what is coming... it is the goal we have been looking toward.
 
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Dave L

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Again, you miss the point. You are using those verses to assume a trip to heaven. Philip's event shows us that harpazo doesn't have to be vertical AND I mentioned doing a search in the LXX because it will become inarguable that harpazo probably meant vertically anyway. Heaven isn't made for man, Dave... God made the Earth for man. We inherit the earth not heaven! That point skews the rest of your end time view which BY THE WAY... isn't even the end time. The word for end is telos, is means completion but also GOAL. We should be excited about what is coming... it is the goal we have been looking toward.
You are using examples that have no bearing on the topic.
 
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Ken Rank

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You are using examples that have no bearing on the topic.
No, I am using examples that undermine your view and you want to ignore them. You think there is no physical kingdom because that is your current paradigm. You're welcome to it but I don't accept it. And I don't accept it because I believe your view of the rapture FORCES you to develop this spiritual realm rather than the very clearly stated physical realm we will continue to belong to.

Adam was a physical being, on a physical Earth... and his fall caused a condition that we have been redeemed from and that process will lead to a restoration of all things. You ignore the whole "restoration of all things" aspect of Scripture that is repeated over and over again. You ignore it, because you don't even see it... and you don't see it because you have a skewed end time/rapture view where we all run off to heaven rather than inheriting the earth like the bible says.
 
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Dave L

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No, I am using examples that undermine your view and you want to ignore them. You think there is no physical kingdom because that is your current paradigm. You're welcome to it but I don't accept it. And I don't accept it because I believe your view of the rapture FORCES you to develop this spiritual realm rather than the very clearly stated physical realm we will continue to belong to.

Adam was a physical being, on a physical Earth... and his fall caused a condition that we have been redeemed from and that process will lead to a restoration of all things. You ignore the whole "restoration of all things" aspect of Scripture that is repeated over and over again. You ignore it, because you don't even see it... and you don't see it because you have a skewed end time/rapture view where we all run off to heaven rather than inheriting the earth like the bible says.
Jesus refutes the physical kingdom. This is one of the reasons the Pharisees rejected him. They looked for a physical kingdom.
 
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