creation of Eve

JackRT said:

Whoa! One thing at a time.

Most modern bible scholars believe that Moses did not write the Torah. Based on their quite different writing styles and use of vocabulary, at least five authors (J,E,P,D and R) have been tentatively identified . "J" used Jehovah exclusively for God and may have been a person, perhaps a woman, in the court of Solomon about 950 BC. "E" used Elohim for God and wrote in the Northern Kingdom about 200 years later. "P" was concerned primarily with ritual and law and were probably priests writing during the Exile. "D" wrote the entire book of Deuteronomy about 625 BC. "R" were the redactors or editors who cobbled it all together. This whole process took place over some 500 years. The type of scholarship that led to the above conclusion is known as "critical biblical scholarship". In this context the word "critical" carries a narrow meaning ---- analytical and objective and not necessarily literal. It does not imply that this scholarship regards the Bible in any sort of pejorative way. In the case of the creation stories in Genesis, Genesis 1 was by the P author writing during the Exile while Genesis 2ff was by the J author writing about 350 years earlier.

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Thanks for the detailed response. Sorry to throw so many questions all at once. But your post left me with a lot of questions.

Here's an issue I see right away. That Moses wrote the Torah is the standard understanding in the New Testament. Unless I am misunderstanding something here. How do these "critical biblical scholars" answer that issue? If you know.

ilovejcsog said:

But now they are saying that it is a myth that she was made from his rib?

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Consider the source.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for the detailed response. Sorry to throw so many questions all at once. But your post left me with a lot of questions.

Here's an issue I see right away. That Moses wrote the Torah is the standard understanding in the New Testament. Unless I am misunderstanding something here. How do these "critical biblical scholars" answer that issue? If you know.

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To the best of my understanding the Mosaic authorship of the Torah is not Biblical but legendary.

JackRT said:

To the best of my understanding the Mosaic authorship of the Torah is not Biblical but legendary.

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That's interesting. I don't see any indication of that in the NT. Unless I am missing something. Check out these scriptures.

Mark 10:5
“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Saint Steven said:

That's interesting. I don't see any indication of that in the NT. Unless I am missing something. Check out these scriptures.

Mark 10:5
“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

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Yes, that was the common belief at that time and for centuries after. But questioning of Mosaic authorship and indeed the veracity of scripture goes back centuries as well. For example, the 13th century Rabbi Maimonides regarded a great deal of Genesis as "myth and borrowed folklore".

JackRT said:

Yes, that was the common belief at that time and for centuries after. But questioning of Mosaic authorship and indeed the veracity of scripture goes back centuries as well. For example, the 13th century Rabbi Maimonides regarded a great deal of Genesis as "myth and borrowed folklore".

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I guess Jesus was fooled as well then? Or perhaps the modernist theories are wrong? And look at what Jesus says about the creation. (2 birds, 1 stone)

Mark 10:4-8
They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Eve was made from Adam's flesh, and all of their descendants have come from that same flesh. Thus we are all bound to Adam and share his fate of corruption and death.
Jesus took on that same flesh when He became man, conceived in Mary's womb, then He took our flesh to the grave, rising to life on the third day and thus destroying the curse Adam had brought upon he and his descendants in the garden. Those who are united to Christ participate in His death and resurrection through baptism and are no longer under the curse of corruption and death.

JackRT said:

I am quite serious and I am not at all suggesting that there are lies in the Bible. Jesus taught valuable lessons in parables. These are fictional stories that challenge our understandings and push us into thinking outside the box. There are three entire OT books that are extended parables. Genesis is partly parabolic. If it were entirely literal then why are there two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, not to mention the three creation stories elsewhere in Bible?

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Hi JackRT,

I just want chime in a little and think outside the box some. I would like to simply pass some of my thoughts on the multiple creations stories and present an option of how to reconcile them.

As far as the other creation stories in the Bible go, I am assuming you are referring to Job 38 and Proverbs 8. These two creations are pointing to the original creation of the heavens and earth. This the Eden creation.

To understand how the two Genesis stories mesh, one needs to look a few chapters ahead in Genesis. The writer often interrupts an idea with information from a different event and returns back to it to finish it later. Here is a prime example. Looking at

Genesis 10: (31–32)
31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. 32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
We see in verse 31 there are different tongues in different nations and the discussion of Shem families and his generations also.

If we read Genesis 11 in the fashion most read Genesis, the detail about Shem and his families should continue. It doesn't, suddenly the writer changes gears and suddenly starts discussing Ham’s generations and Babel.

Genesis 11: (1–10)
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. 10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

The author then returns to the Shem discussion latter in Genesis 11:10. So basically here we see the discussion about Shem (the first concept) begins and suddenly the author goes to another concept and then move back to the previous concept.

Now lets apply the authors reasoning to the first chapters in Genesis.

The first concept start in Genesis 1:1. The next concept starts in Genesis 1:2 and goes to Genesis 2:3. Now we must return to the previous concept starting in Genesis 2:4

In short,

Genesis 1 :1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

and now,

Genesis 2:4 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

This concept continues until the end of Genesis 4:26. This is the Eden creation, the first creation. The discussion of the heavens and earth that was created, then is in Job 38.

Notice in Genesis 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
now notice

Job 38 26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

This is the first creation (including the earth and the universe). Here is something interesting. This creation had access to the tree of life. Notice the progeny in chapter 4 has no ages associated with them.

Now if we return to Genesis 1:2 we return to the second concept. The is a new creation or simply a recreation. The creation has been flooded by the deep and now the new creation is instructed to replace the first.

Genesis 1 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

We see this creation does not have access to the tree of life and an emphasis is put on procreation. The progeny of this creation is in Genesis 5. This creation does not have access to the tree of life and so those in Genesis 5 age and needed to concern themselves with time.

This can be further carried on over to the flood and to Babel and further.

Genesis 7: (13-16) 13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

Now there are two important things to notice in Genesis 7 (13-14). Notice in 14 that the ones entering the ark are those from the second creation,

Genesis 1: (24-25) 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

and notice that they (The second creation, those “after His kind”) enter in the same day Noah and his family enter.

Now Notice Genesis 7:15 ,These are the creatures from the first creation (Those with the breath of life.).

Genesis 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Also notice that the ones from the first creation (The Eden creation.) enter after Noah, his family, and the ones from the second creation (“after His kind”).

Maybe because man needs a woman to complete him? Or to feel whole? And they get —— in return I’m not really sure?

JesusIsMySavior101 said:

Maybe because man needs a woman to complete him? Or to feel whole? And they get —— in return I’m not really sure?

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One day in the Garden of Eden Adam walked up to God and said “I'm lonely.” God said “I will make you a companion. You will never be lonely again. She will feed you fantastic meals, cater to your every desire, always obey you, care for you in every way and as a bonus she and you will make wild passionate love as often as you want.” Adam said “Sounds wonderful but I know that everything has a price. What will it cost me?” God said “It will cost you an arm and a leg.” Adam said “That's too expensive. Errr … ahhhh …. ummm … what can I get for a rib?”

JackRT said:

I am quite serious and I am not at all suggesting that there are lies in the Bible. Jesus taught valuable lessons in parables. These are fictional stories that challenge our understandings and push us into thinking outside the box. There are three entire OT books that are extended parables. Genesis is partly parabolic. If it were entirely literal then why are there two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, not to mention the three creation stories elsewhere in Bible?

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They are not contradictory--1 and 2 are the same story--1 is in chronological order, 2 is not and has added details is all--it it is common way of Jewish writing.

JackRT said:

Whoa! One thing at a time.

Most modern bible scholars believe that Moses did not write the Torah. Based on their quite different writing styles and use of vocabulary, at least five authors (J,E,P,D and R) have been tentatively identified . "J" used Jehovah exclusively for God and may have been a person, perhaps a woman, in the court of Solomon about 950 BC. "E" used Elohim for God and wrote in the Northern Kingdom about 200 years later. "P" was concerned primarily with ritual and law and were probably priests writing during the Exile. "D" wrote the entire book of Deuteronomy about 625 BC. "R" were the redactors or editors who cobbled it all together. This whole process took place over some 500 years. The type of scholarship that led to the above conclusion is known as "critical biblical scholarship". In this context the word "critical" carries a narrow meaning ---- analytical and objective and not necessarily literal. It does not imply that this scholarship regards the Bible in any sort of pejorative way. In the case of the creation stories in Genesis, Genesis 1 was by the P author writing during the Exile while Genesis 2ff was by the J author writing about 350 years earlier.

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It matters didley squat to me who wrote it. It is the word of God and is not a myth. I never thought Moses wrote it for never once does it read in the first person--it is always Moses did this or that, never I did this or that.

JackRT said:

I am quite serious and I am not at all suggesting that there are lies in the Bible. Jesus taught valuable lessons in parables. These are fictional stories that challenge our understandings and push us into thinking outside the box. There are three entire OT books that are extended parables. Genesis is partly parabolic. If it were entirely literal then why are there two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, not to mention the three creation stories elsewhere in Bible?

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I think this is dangerous grounds and as a scholar you should know better. First of all, while you have a right to believe it, if wrong it is you (albeit unknowingly) that are spreading lies. Second though, and perhaps more importantly, you're making claims that place into question areas of the bible in front of just anyone who happens to be reading without regard for where they are in their walk. There are some things I won't share on CF, or anywhere else online, Jack, because I know if I share them that a new to the faith person won't have the tools to be able to deal with what was said. And in that case, I will most certainly cause them to stumble.

Lastly, you actually see contradictory creation stories in Genesis? Are you reading the same book I am? What version are you using because I don't see anything in Genesis that can't be reconciled. Mind sharing?

JackRT said:

Whoa! One thing at a time.

Most modern bible scholars believe that Moses did not write the Torah.

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Then most scholars are wrong. It is far more likely somebody like Shem wrote it as Moses certainly didn't write about his own death. Moses wrote down the laws as God dictated... there isn't even a hint that Moses recorded the history. The problem is, Jack, and again you should know better.... that this doesn't place question on the BIBLE... it places a question on MAN'S interpretation of the bible!

ilovejcsog said:

I'm here. I can't find your threads. Please tell me how to follow them? They aren't listed when I follow you. What did Arabia have to gain by killing that guy? I don't understand?

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He was very critical of the crown prince.

ilovejcsog said:

I'm here. I can't find your threads. Please tell me how to follow them? They aren't listed when I follow you. What did Arabia have to gain by killing that guy? I don't understand?

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Sorry, I can't help you with any of that. Check the Controversial and Sabbath and Law topics.