Am I Born Again?

LightLoveHope said:

Thank you for your enthusiasm in correcting us, and showing us Gods word.
Jesus is not wrong, but your interpretation or mine can be, which is why we are told to be careful and test what we understand and believe it means.

The bible is an emotional and spiritual book. Without a heart devoted and embedded in love and the Holy Spirit it is easy to get things wrong. Have you not learnt this yet?
I trust such a teacher as yourself would have experienced such trials and issues when things are said that are so difficult to fulfil yet Jesus asks us to follow?

Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry
James 1:19

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I am only repeating what has been said in the Scriptures.

Wordkeeper said:

Iḿ afraid your explanatory skills are lacking. This is how Paul knew the believers in Acts 19 had still not received the HolY Spirit. If they had so received, they would have been led into truth. They would have been prophesying, explaining Scripture, like Philip, non stop...

You better check what kind of baptism you received, because each baptism leads you into different benefits.

Johnś baptism protects, makes Israel safe, keeps her away from wrath.

Christś baptism energises, makes alive, is able to wash people clean, through the words Christ speaks through you, so that they can come out of Egypt.

Acts of the Apostles 3:39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

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There is but ONE baptism... Ephesians 4:4-6

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

There is but ONE baptism... Ephesians 4:4-6

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You are quoting out of context.

Paul was rebuking people who thought that different teachers could invoke different gifts in their respective cliques. In other words he was fighting factionalism.

Ephesians 4:1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

8Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”

9(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Wordkeeper said:

Excellent, again. Now explain that verse.

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To an unbeliever, I would say a lot more than this, and to a believer I would go deeper, but here is a quick answer, in my own words:

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, the prophecied Messiah, come in the flesh, died on the Cross as the sacrificial lamb, a propitiation (atonement) for our sins. His Blood sets us free from sin, from the devil, and from the Father's wrath (Hell). Then (though the verse doesn't mention the resurrection, it is implied) after having been in Hell and defeated death, He rose again on the third day, then after being with the Apostles giving instructions for 40 days, He was seated on the Right Hand of God in Heaven, and all authority was given to Him. In His resurrection we are given new life in Him in this life, and then eternal life after we are glorified with Him in our new bodies. This Covenant is for everyone who believes in Jesus, believes that He is who He said He is, and believes in their heart that He was raised from the dead, who repents (has a change of heart and turn from sin and agrees to live according to God's commandments) and are baptized (in His Spirit and preferably also in water).

Anything else? I enjoy being tested.

What about the conversation Jesus has with Nicodemus? (John 3:1-21)

Emli said:

To an unbeliever, I would say a lot more than this, and to a believer I would go deeper, but here is a quick answer, in my own words:

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, the prophecied Messiah, come in the flesh, died on the Cross as the sacrificial lamb, a propitiation (atonement) for our sins. His Blood sets us free from sin, from the devil, and from the Father's wrath (Hell). Then (though the verse doesn't mention the resurrection, it is implied) after having been in Hell and defeated death, He rose again on the third day, then after being with the Apostles giving instructions for 40 days, He was seated on the Right Hand of God in Heaven, and all authority was given to Him. In His resurrection we are given new life in Him in this life, and then eternal life after we are glorified with Him in our new bodies. This Covenant is for everyone who believes in Jesus, believes that He is who He said He is, and believes in their heart that He was raised from the dead, who repents (has a change of heart and turn from sin and agrees to live according to God's commandments) and are baptized (in His Spirit and preferably also in water).

Anything else? I enjoy being tested.

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You know the 70 were sent to rescue people just like Moses was sent to rescue Israel.

What was the danger to be rescued from?

(We will get to the resurrection of Christ later on).

Wordkeeper said:

You know the 70 were sent to rescue people just like Moses was sent to rescue Israel.

What was the danger to be rescued from?

(We will get to the resurrection of Christ later on).

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They were casting out demons.
Serpents and scorpions. Luke 10:19, Deuteronomy 8:15

Emli said:

They were casting out demons.
Serpents and scorpions. Luke 10:18, Deuteronomy 8:15

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Okay consider this. The people were crying out that they had a hard master, who made them work hard for gains that didn't even last. Isnt this the complaint of every person in the world?

Well God says come out from that situation and work for me for treasure that lasts.

Now the people aren't sure. What if God is a worse master? What if God can't carry us into that new life?

In order to convince people to follow Moses, God gave him signs and wonders to perform, so that the people would have faith and follow him into the Promised Land.

Similarly, Jesus gave powers to the 70 so that people would leave serving mammon to be IN Him, the real Promised Land.

They drove out demons, which was miraculous. This convinced people to leave serving mammon to serve God, so that they could be allowed INTO Christ.

Good, so far?

Wordkeeper said:

Okay consider this. The people were crying out that they had a hard master, who made them work hard for gains that didn't even last. Isnt this the complaint of every person in the world?

Well God says come out from that situation and work for me for treasure that lasts.

Now the people aren't sure. What if God is a worse master? What if God can't carry us into that new life?

In order to convince people to follow Moses, God gave him signs and wonders to perform, so that the people would have faith and follow him into the Promised Land.

Similarly, Jesus gave powers to the 70 so that people would leave serving mammon to be IN Him, the real Promised Land.

They drove out demons, which was miraculous. This convinced people to leave serving mammon to serve God, so that they could be allowed INTO Christ.

Good, so far?

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Good. Except I would say that there is much more to the world than only Mammon, and that there was more to Egypt than only money. But maybe you will get to that?

Aldebaran said:

If you think that water baptism puts you into Christ, then all people would need to do is be water baptized to be saved. No change of heart, no repentance, etc. And the Catholic tradition of baptizing babies takes away that person's role in making the decision themselves to follow Christ.

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This is true for adults. Baptism is the manner in which adults who can give conscious assent to faith are entered into Christ. For them, the formula is faith by hearing, baptism into Christ.

For infants it is different. The formula for them is baptism into Christ, then faith by being catechized so that they make their own conscious decision to accept that faith they were baptized into.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No, your are not understanding what he is saying...he is actually saying the opposite of what you are saying. …"to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."

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Did Elijah walk into heaven? Did Jesus rise bodily into heaven?
At least we know what you are saying, that everything eternal is spirit and not flesh.
I suggest you are trying to be mysterious over something quite simple.
Is flesh alone evil, and spirit ultimately perfect?

John says
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:1-3
This is God dwelling with man, a new heaven and new earth, not man becoming spirit and dwelling with God in heavenlies.

Does not match your ideas at all. So I suggest though you could be right, scripture does not support it.

QUOTE="Marvin KnoxWhere do the scriptures say that one who has not become completely obedient to the instructions of the Church and the Apostles are not born again?

The instruction of the Apostles and the Church up until the man-made religion of Anabaptistry was created by Roger Williams was that you are baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). You are further baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3; Gal. 3:27). There is no other way and for 15 centuries, this was understood as truth, even by heretics.

I am close to 73 years old now and I have been disobedient to the instructions of the Church and the Apostles any number of times over my 60 years as a believer. Do you believe I have been "born again" and "unborn again" some thousands of times since I was sealed by the Spirit of God?

Being disobedient to the ethics of the covenant (aka "sin") breaks the covenant relationship. The model for this is the Prodigal Son. There are different levels of sin, just as it was possible that the Prodigal could have gone out into the field with his sin rather than leaving home. Small sins interrupt the flow of communion between God and us. But grave sins break our covenant relationship with Christ, just as an act of adultery would break the relationship in a marriage.

No, you don't get "unborn again." Once you have a covenant relationship with Christ Jesus, that is forever. However, according to covenant principles, you can wreck that relationship, and even destroy it forever if you persist in that sin rather than confess it and restore the relationship.

Preposterous, as I see it.

Have you not heard?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in whom our lives are now hidden by grace through faith has been witnessed by the entire physical and spiritual world.

Nope. Not even close. There must be a similar "type" of "covenant-cutting" ceremony which is undertaken by both who are making covenant. Christ's part was His death on the Cross, just as the Father's part with Abraham was the passing through the divided animals in Genesis 15. But the covenant with Abraham was not complete until Abraham did his part in the ceremony in Genesis 17, which was to submit to circumcision. You have no idea how a covenant works, and it sounds like you have Calvinist cooties to boot. They have this weird idea that Jesus "did it all" so they don't have to do anything of their own free will.

Nonsense - the New Covenant is in the shedding of Christ's blood. The shedding of that blood took place early on in the process of the suffering and crucifixion of Christ.

St. Paul says once again that you are wrong. The covenant was not finished until Christ died and the veil of the Temple was torn in two pieces, defiling the Holiest of All and showing that it was unfit for use and the Old Covenant was finished. St. Paul states that a testament (covenant - same Greek word) is not in force until the death of the testator. So until Christ died, the thief was under the Old Covenant. He was a Jew and circumcised, so he had already "cut covenant" with God. No need for baptism, since he was already in covenant with God.

"Learn the Covenant of God and you will not make such egregious errors."

Yes, by all means you should read Ray Sutton's book so you will not make the errors you are making.

Let me repeat. The beginning of the New Covenant was at the shedding of Christ's blood. That took place while the thief was still alive and speaking to the Lord on Calvary.

Nope. Not till Christ died, according to St. Paul.

Therefore, logically, according to your doctrine baptism would have been required for the thief to be saved. It was not according to the clear teaching of the scriptures.

As I said, the thief was already in covenant. No need to be baptized, and no ability to be baptized since Christ had not died and the New Covenant was not in effect.

Therefore, again logically, your doctrine concerning the need for baptism to be saved is wrong.

Capeesh?

Yeah, I capeesh that you are totally wrong on this, not only according to Scripture, but according to covenant principles and according to 15 centuries of Christian teaching which was unchanged until Anabaptist heretics came along.

Dave G. said:

Where does it says that Galatians 3:27 is speaking of water baptism ? This whole chapter is about salvation by faith actually, Paul isn't saying "oh by the way sprinkle some water on them too". There are several kinds of baptism through out scripture, this baptism being spoken of is baptism by the Holy Spirit though, it's a baptism taking place at the heart level...

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Where does it say that it is not?

Better question: why did 15 centuries of Christians teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation? Where did they learn this from?

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:

A man was sentenced to death penalty, and while in prison, he converted and accepted the message of salvation.
The prison wouldn't let him get baptized, so he dies accepting his savior and Lord, but not baptized.
Is he saved or not.

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He is saved because he desired baptism and was providentially prevented from being baptized. But I see what you are doing. You are creating a straw man argument and then trying to hold it up as the norm.

That is not the norm.

The norm is baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)

The question becomes 'were you or I water baptized full immersion style in Trinitarian fashion and of our own free will?' If the answer is 'no,' consider seeking to remove the beam out of your own baptism eye before removing the speck out of your brother's baptism eye.

Chris V++ said:

The question becomes 'were you or I water baptized full immersion style in Trinitarian fashion and of our own free will?' If the answer is 'no,' consider seeking to remove the beam out of your own baptism eye before removing the speck out of your brother's baptism eye.

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Chris I took the full dunking, sounds like you did as well ? FWIW, so did our Lord !

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:

A man was sentenced to death penalty, and while in prison, he converted and accepted the message of salvation.
The prison wouldn't let him get baptized, so he dies accepting his savior and Lord, but not baptized.
Is he saved or not.

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There's a couple things I want to say here in response to this hypothetical:

Firstly: There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the historic, traditional view of Baptism as accepted by Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, et al; namely in seeing Baptism as a work to be accomplished, or as an obstacle that must be overcome in order to achieve salvation. This simply isn't the historic teaching. Baptism is not an obstacle that must be overcome, it is simply the normative means by which people are born anew into the Christian life.

Secondly: I want to raise a question for illustrative purposes: Does fire burn? I would think that most of us would agree that it is a bad idea to stick one's hand into an open flame, that's how you get burned. So we can agree that fire burns. But, however, what do we read in the Book of Daniel?

"Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire. And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king’s counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them."

How could this be? We know that fire burns. Well, we know the answer don't we? That in this unique circumstance, by the extraordinary power of God, the fire did no harm to the three men, it did not even singe their hair or garments, they didn't even smell of the flame.

So if I told you, "You shouldn't put your hand in an open flame, you'll get burned." Would you respond by mentioning the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? Of course not, because we both recognize the difference between the ordinary circumstance and the extraordinary circumstance. That in the ordinary circumstance things are ordered in their normal way, fire burns. But that in extraordinary circumstance God is quite capable of preventing fire to burn, as He did here for these three men.

So why use extraordinary circumstances to deny the ordinary circumstances when it comes to Baptism?

Nobody thinks that if a person is, by extraordinary circumstance, prevented from receiving Baptism that God is going to hold this thing over their head, because Baptism isn't an obstacle, it's a gift and work of God. But what if you aren't prevented from receiving Baptism? What possible reason can a person have to refrain from this great fount of salvation which God has entrusted to His Church? By which there is marked the very name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, where is promised remission of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit, burial, death, and life with Christ, union with Jesus Himself, and all else Scripture says concerning Baptism?

This is why, historically, Christians spoke of "Baptism of desire" to describe the extraordinary circumstances where a person was prevented, by circumstance, from receiving Baptism. Because Baptism isn't an obstacle, it's not a work, it isn't something we do to earn salvation--it's simply the ordinary means by which God accomplishes His work upon us, appropriating to us the perfect and completed work of Jesus Christ Himself. There are all manner of hypothetical situations, all manner of extraordinary circumstances that might prevent many things, such as Baptism. Indeed, for well over a thousand years nobody in the Americas was able to hear the Gospel, from the 1st century to the 15th century no indigenous American person ever heard the Gospel--should we assume therefore that, due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, the whole host of human beings never able to hear this life-giving Word of God are impossibly damned? Or do we here confess that God, in His great mercy, will act in accordance with His great mercy?

Have faith in Christ, He is mighty to save. But here is His word to you, to all of us, that we ought be baptized for it is here, in Baptism, that we are born anew by the Spirit of God.

-CryptoLutheran

go get baptized buddy...to fulfill all righteousness matthew 3:13-15

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:

Because these aren't as extraordinary as you may think.

With the popularization of baptism classes, most new-believers have to wait sometimes years until being baptized. From finding a church, to being in-season for starting classes, to final baptism.

In-between the genesis of a new believer and act of baptism, there is no guaranteed life.
As in my situation the extraordinary case I gave, is less extraordinary then mine. Because the prisoner has an advantage knowing his time of death. I don't.

I don't know if I have 1-2 years to live until I baptize.

When people here push that baptism is an absolute act for salvation, that doesn't leave any hope for new believers. Everyone new to the faith, will have to jump into a river within the hour, and hope they don't die on the way.

When I first believed a year ago, I joined a church and wanted to be baptized right away, but needed half a year of classes. But as I grew in faith, I learned their methods and doctrine were corrupt for baptism. So I lost a year and now I have no one to baptize me.

So tell me then, that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

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Wow... When did Paul or anyone else give six months of classes before they baptized someone? Shouldn't a Spirit-filled believer be able to tell if the faith is genuine, just trust in God, and then baptize the person?