What is "born of water"

You think, then, that when asked about how to be saved, it was critical for Jesus to explain that you have to be here, to exist, in order to have a shot at salvation?

My own view is that Nicodemus already knew that much about the matter.

Albion said:

You think, then, that when asked about how to be saved, it was critical for Jesus to explain that you have to be here, to exist, in order to have a shot at salvation?

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He was explaining the situation...the sequence of events.

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

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Born again in Jesus, He is the living water, receiving His spirit in us.

Revelation 7

17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

John 7:38

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

John 7:37-39
On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 4:10

Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water

Jeremiah 17:13

O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you shall be put to shame; those who turn away from you shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living water.

Water baptism is the outward proclamation that one has been saved through the blood of Jesus, glorifying Jesus and is made before God and man.

God Bless.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

He was explaining the situation...the sequence of events.

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Be born. Later, the Holy Spirit will come (in some unspecified way). That's it.

Well, I am not persuaded that this was the message, but of course we are all guessing, so I am not offended if someone has a different view. I can only answer for what my own conclusion is.

Albion said:

Be born. Later, the Holy Spirit will come (in some unspecified way). That's it.

Well, I am not persuaded that this was the message, but of course we are all guessing, so I am not offended if someone has a different view. I can only answer for what my own conclusion is.

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No, there is MUCH more there. Read the entire narrative again...remember, Nicodemus was a Pharisee...NOT a Saducee

Yes, I appreciate the point, but the reply still doesn't seem to me to be a reference to physical birth (because of the structure of the response), and the idea that he was running through some sequence of events that would explain salvation seems even less compelling.

Albion said:

Yes, I appreciate the point, but the reply still doesn't seem to me to be a reference to physical birth (because of the structure of the response), and the idea that he was running through some sequence of events that would explain salvation seems even less compelling.

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HaMevin Yavin

Baptism

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"
...

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I have understood it is the words of Jesus that are the water, because:


but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 4:14

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water."
John 7:38

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

Click to expand...

The water is attached to the Spirit. It is not "born of water", but "born of water and the Spirit"; the birth here is singular. Only one birth is being mentioned, one that is both of water and the Spirit. For as long as there have been Christians talking about what Jesus means in John 3:5 the understanding has always been the same: This refers to Baptism.

Up and until modern times this was the universal and unanimous teaching and understanding of the whole Church.

-CryptoLutheran

Wordkeeper said:

It's very clear John was correcting their understanding of the Sinaitic Covenant (Ishmael) and announcing the arrival of the promise through faith New Covenant (Isaac) :

Luke 3:7So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.9“Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?” 11And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”12And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.”14Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

15Now while the people were in a state of expectation and all were wondering in their hearts about John, as to whether he was the Christ, 16John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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You must have been responding to a different post. The context I was talking about was Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John chapter 3. Perhaps you got John and Luke mixed up, for you're quoting LUke chapter 3 which is irrelevant to my comment.

If Jesus had stopped at verse 5 with the answer to Nicodemus' question of a man crawling back into the womb, then we could conclude that the water in verse 5 would be water baptism. He did not though. Instead he contrasted man's physical birth with that of the flesh.
If we are to accept that verse 6 is water baptism, then we preach the water baptism of the Great Commission as 'being baptized of the flesh in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.'

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

Click to expand...

You have to be born human - from a woman.

Even the fallen had this quality for their children, as they took daughters of men for their wives to produce their hybrids.


That is why the Redeemer said we also must be born of spirit. You need to be 1) human, and 2) enveloped and immersed in the Holy Spirit. That is what a Real [Son/Daughter of] Man is - not this current sad state in which we currently exist.



The baptism was an allusion to the Redeemer - it was an outward work of faith. But, you shouldn't just let anyone lay their hands on you and baptize you; The Redeemer knew John (His cousin, and a prophet). And, it should be done when one wants to do it, or if one feels compelled. Please let me know where baptism is required for salvation, or even discipleship if I am mistaken - preferably from the Word of God Himself..

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

Click to expand...

I think water in that verse is an illustration for the word. Born of the word, (the truth) and the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Cuddles333 said:

If Jesus had stopped at verse 5 with the answer to Nicodemus' question of a man crawling back into the womb, then we could conclude that the water in verse 5 would be water baptism. He did not though. Instead he contrasted man's physical birth with that of the flesh.
If we are to accept that verse 6 is water baptism, then we preach the water baptism of the Great Commission as 'being baptized of the flesh in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.'

Click to expand...

You are introducing the idea of matter-spirit dualism into the passage, and thereby seeing "flesh" as referring to material, visible things and "spirit" as referring to immaterial, invisible things. This sort of matter-spirit dualism has become increasingly more common and more popular in modern Christianity--dangerously so. This matter-spirit dualistic idea has its basis in Gnosticism, and is fundamentally antithetical to the Christian religion. It is precisely this sort of dualism that led heretics to claim that Jesus wasn't really a flesh and blood human, but only appeared that way (Docetism), or that the Divine could not suffer in the Person of Jesus and so an empty human vessel suffered only (Cerinthianism). The Doctrine of the Incarnation destroys this idea immediately and thoroughly: For the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and this One lived, suffered, was crucified, died, buried, and rose again in the body, ascended into the heavens, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Our very salvation was carried out and accomplished by the essential means of bodily flesh, with bodily blood shed, as His body was pierced by nails upon an instrument of wood. And this same Jesus was taken down from that cross, dead, wrapped in burial clothes, laid in a rock-hewn tomb and, on the third day, that rock had been moved away, and the tomb was empty--because this same Jesus had risen. And He appeared to His disciples, showing them the scars on His hands, side, and feet, and He said, "Feel Me and see that it is I, Myself, a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have".

This same Jesus gathered a group of people, and He established them together as His Holy Church, charging them to go and preach the Gospel, to baptize, and to celebrate His Supper. And it is by these very Means that God has attached His promises, that whoever is baptized is baptized into Christ's death, that we were buried with Him, having died and been crucified with Jesus, clothed with Jesus, in order that we should rise with Him and share in His life. That by this preached word faith comes. That Christ has cleansed us "by the washing of water with the word" and we have been saved "by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit". This Jesus took bread and said of it "This is My body" and took wine and said "This is the cup of the New Covenant in My blood", and the Apostle St. Paul having said, "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless sharing in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread which we break sharing in the body of Christ?" Such that whoever eats and drinks unworthily sins not against mere bread and wine, but against the body and blood of Jesus Christ Himself.

God has not attached His promises to invisible, esoteric things; but to tangible, exoteric things. How can I know that I belong to God? Is it because of some personal, private experience? Some feeling I have? By looking inside myself to find something worthy, or perhaps by the works I do? No. I can know that I belong to God because Christ died and rose from the dead, that's the word that is preached to me; because I'm baptized, and everything God has attached to Baptism is true by His solemn and irrevocable word.

So why do men run away from the Gospel and hide in the shelter of their own man-made religion? I can only imagine it is what the Apostle wrote in 1 Corinthians chapter 1, that the things of God are foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews. For God has chosen the foolish and weak things of the world to confound the wise and the strong. But for us who are being saved, we should not be ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the very power of God to save; for indeed Christ is the Wisdom of God and the Power of God, and for us Righteousness, Sanctification, and Redemption.

-CryptoLutheran

DamianWarS said:

Jesus says to Nicodemus in his dialogue about being born again from John 3 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

What is "born of water"

The text seems to contrast the flesh and the spirit, natural birth and spirit birth and keeping with these contrasts water would represents the flesh or the natural (compare v5 with v6). Water is traditionally considered part of the birthing experience and this perspective lends itself to expressions like "water breaking". The "water" is amniotic fluid and the "breaking" is the amniotic sac rupturing but we still call it "water" and so did ancient cultures.

But when Jesus says "water" could he mean water baptism instead? He doesn't clarify and the word baptism is never used. Water baptism is still a part of a natural experience that anyone could do regardless of their belief. If Jesus means water baptism it could still represent the flesh side as it is something the flesh engages in and administers and it uses natural devices. Jesus may be saying it's not just baptism but it also needs to be of the Spirit so one can be born again.

But if it's water baptism is this an example of Jesus requiring it along with the spirit to be born again? or does the "water" represent only fleshly devices inherent in our humanity so long as we are born into this world and seek the spirit?

Click to expand...

Ephesians 5:25-27 says that Christ gave Himself for the church so that He might sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word so that He might present to Himself a church who is holy, blameless, without spot, or wrinkle, etc.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Jesus says, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word." (Psalms 119:9).

So the water = the Word of God.

So when a person is said to be born of water, it is not talking about baptism, but it is talking about being born again by the Holy Scriptures.

For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Looks like somebody beat me to it.

Anyways, may God bless you all today.

Daniel Martinovich said:

I think water in that verse is an illustration for the word. Born of the word, (the truth) and the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

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And this water wells up unto eternal life.

bcbsr said:

You must have been responding to a different post. The context I was talking about was Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John chapter 3. Perhaps you got John and Luke mixed up, for you're quoting LUke chapter 3 which is irrelevant to my comment.

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I'm saying Jesus and John the Baptist were both teaching the need for a change of mind, meta noia, repentance. John's baptism was a baptism of water, the Old Covenant, which teaches serving God and our fellow human beings, which is repentance from serving selfish needs. Nicodemus, like all the other Jews, were depending on God to make Judaism a blessing to the world by making all Jews observe the rituals that identified Jews as Jews: circumcision, dietary laws, fasting. They knew they hadn't got the right combination of halakhah yet, because God kept on punishing them. John said that for Jews to escape wrath, they needed observe the weightier matters of the law too: justice mercy and faithfulness. Thats why Law was added to the Covenant made with Abraham, because of transgression. Without the law, Jews would be like Sodom and gomorrah, which became extinct. The Law protected, was a pedagogos, babysitter, guardian, until the parents came back, Christ and the New Covenant were sent.

And he said, "Don't expect that the Sinaitic Covenant , Judaism, would become a blessing to the world, because that was Ishmael, man's effort at bringing the Promise to fruition. The Promise was not by man's works, but was a gift from God, Isaac, Christ and the New Covenant, the righteousness of God. Acquired by repentance! Water cleanses from a guilty conscience, protects, but the Holy Spirit makes alive, so believe Christ who comes after me!"

Galatians 4: 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Personally, I think that the amniotic fluid idea is a late development to attempt to modify the text to suit the sensibilities of those who disagree with - for lack of a better term - baptismal regeneration. It would seem logical to me that humans have been familiar with the process of childbirth for a while, and so would have a specific, identifiable term for amniotic fluid that could clearly be identified in original texts.