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Jipsah

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Actually, futurism was the STANDARD doctrine of the church throughout its first four centuries. In fact, in the fifth century, Jerome called it "the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church."
Reckon St. Jerome would have agreed with the abominable notion that the Church would be replaced by New, Improved, Even More Effective, Temple Judaism, and the Letter to the Hebrews chucked into the stove?
 
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Jipsah

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Actually, futurism was the STANDARD doctrine of the church throughout its first four centuries. In fact, in the fifth century, Jerome called it "the traditional interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church."
Would that be the same sort if "futurism" as the very American doctrine that the Church awaits, not the Return of our Lord Christ to reign over the Earth, but the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel? That The Church, founded by Emmanuel Himself, will be cast aside, to be replaced by the ritual slaughter of animals for blood sacrifices in a new Hebrew Temple, the Sacrifice of our Lord's Blood not having been sufficient to reconcile God and sinners once and for all time? That the center of all our hopes and prayers and aspirations was not, after all, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty, the King of Kings, the Lord of All, the Creator, our Master, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the great I Am, but some reboot of the nation of Israel?

I have stated in the past that Christ must be the center, the focus, our our eschatology, as of all our Faith, only to be told by futurists that the center of our Eschatology must be Israel. Somehow, somewhere, something has gone badly wrong with Futurism, to transform it from a fairly reasonable view of Last Things; still wrong, IMO, but inoffensive, into the blasphemous mess that it has become.
 
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Douggg

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Judah, the Jewish people, who wrongly call their country Israel, have many specific prophesies of how God will deal with them in these end times.
No, they are not wrong. Their country is correctly named Israel. The nation of Judah was less than half the size of modern Israel. Modern Israel covers the territory of both the northern and southern kingdoms.

This is the map of the two split kingdoms...

1200px-Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg.png


Here is a map of the modern state of Israel. Same territory as the two kingdoms.


Map2a.jpg
 
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Douggg

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Then you are turning Jesus into Antichrist. And saying Jesus failed to accomplish what Gabriel said he would.
Failed is an inappropriate word. "Not yet" is the right phrase.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Jipsah said:
And God can also turn the sun into a grapefruit, but there's no reason to believe that He ever did, or ever will.

Dear Lord, please don’t turn the sun into a grapefruit.
 
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Dave L

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Failed is an inappropriate word. "Not yet" is the right phrase.
Jesus fulfilled the 70th contiguous week as planned. Antichrist did not. So we know the prophecy is about Jesus. You do not have direct scripture for a supposed gap. So this rules a gap out too.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Would that be the same sort if "futurism" as the very American doctrine that the Church awaits, not the Return of our Lord Christ to reign over the Earth, but the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel?......
Hello Jipsah.
I have been enjoying your spirit led posts.

If their kingdom is to be restored, I would assume that would mean they are without a kingdom?

Acts 1:
6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord! are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.


Judea, Jerusalem, the Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood belonged to the Southern Nation/Kingdom of Judah, which included the priestly tribe of Levi [listed 8th in Revelation], and Benjamin[Paul's tribe....listed 12th in Revelation, and also last born Genesis 35:18

I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when the Kingdom would be taken away from the Kingdom of Judah and be given it back to the Kingdom of Israel [Israel was divorced in the OT for harlotry-Jeremiah 3:8]

Matthew 21:43

Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

I have a discussion thread on this for any interested [only 1 response so far]

Acts 1:6 restore kingdom to Israel/10 kings One Mind Reve 17?

The Northern Kingdom of Israel consisted of 10 tribes [1 Kings 11:31-35]
Anyway, I have a rather "unique" view that these 10 Kings may be representing the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which you perceived are ten Kings, who any a Kingdom not as yet received,
but authority as Kings one hour they are obtaining with the beast,


How else could this prophecy be fufilled?


Ezekiel 37:22
“and I will make them one Nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one King shall be king over them all;
they shall no longer be two Nations,
nor shall they ever be divided into two Kingdoms again.
 
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keras

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No, they are not wrong. Their country is correctly named Israel. The nation of Judah was less than half the size of modern Israel. Modern Israel covers the territory of both the northern and southern kingdoms.
The Jews know very well that they represent only 2 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
There is a famous discussion, in the Middle ages; where Rabbi Akiva says that Judah still awaits the rejoining of their kinsmen, the ten Northern tribes. Ezekiel 11:14-21 And the blessings of God to all of Israel, as per Ezekiel 37, have not yet happened.
Modern Israel does not cover all the holy Land as given to Abraham. Genesis 15:18 But the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, WILL.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus fulfilled the 70th contiguous week as planned. Antichrist did not. So we know the prophecy is about Jesus. You do not have direct scripture for a supposed gap. So this rules a gap out too.
Would make for an interesting thread.
Oh wait, there is one.
Anyone want to revive this thread?

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?


DavidPT said:
"If one can come up with a precise day and time when the 70 weeks initially started, and assuming no gaps until completion, how hard should it be to come up with the precise day and time it allegedly finished? Shouldn't be hard at all. I would like to know when the 70 weeks allegedly finished, so I can then see if anything in history was special about that day in particular.

And since I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, I'm not the one that needs to provide a precise day and time the 70 weeks allegedly finished. The ones claiming no gap need to provide this since it seems odd they can know precisely when the 70 weeks began, but can't know precisely when they end, while at the same time claiming they have already ended."

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"
  1. No
    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  2. Yes
    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  3. * [yours truly ehehe]
    I don't know
    1 vote(s)
    3.0%
  4. Other
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
 
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keras

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You do not have direct scripture for a supposed gap. So this rules a gap out too.
What we who believe in the future 70th week of Daniel, do have, is a nearly 2000 year hiatus since Jesus was Crucified until now.
Exactly as prophesied by Hosea 6:2 and Jesus in Luke 13:32. Each 'day' equaling 1000 years, as two witnesses attest; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

I view the denial of the fulfillment of this last 7 years before Jesus Returns, as avoidance of what is plainly prophesied to happen. This attitude is wrong and foolish, as it leaves one 'in the dark' about what must happen soon.
 
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Dave L

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What we who believe in the future 70th week of Daniel, do have, is a nearly 2000 year hiatus since Jesus was Crucified until now.
Exactly as prophesied by Hosea 6:2 and Jesus in Luke 13:32. Each 'day' equaling 1000 years, as two witnesses attest; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

I view the denial of the fulfillment of this last 7 years before Jesus Returns, as avoidance of what is plainly prophesied to happen. This attitude is wrong and foolish, as it leaves one 'in the dark' about what must happen soon.
No direct quotes from scripture = no gap.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I view the denial of the fulfillment of this last 7 years before Jesus Returns, as avoidance of what is plainly prophesied to happen. This attitude is wrong and foolish, as it leaves one 'in the dark' about what must happen soon.
Evidently, not for the Preterists :)
 
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keras

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Douggg

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The Jews know very well that they represent only 2 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
There is a famous discussion, in the Middle ages; where Rabbi Akiva says that Judah still awaits the rejoining of their kinsmen, the ten Northern tribes. Ezekiel 11:14-21 And the blessings of God to all of Israel, as per Ezekiel 37, have not yet happened.
Modern Israel does not cover all the holy Land as given to Abraham. Genesis 15:18 But the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, WILL.
Middle ages? Rabbi Akiva died in 135 AD. We are talking current Israel anyway, 1948 and later.

The Jews I have discussed with online say that most of them don't know what tribe they each are affiliated with. That they expect the messiah to inform them.

Ezekiel 37 is not completed yet, obviously. But that doesn't mean Israel was not born in a single day, just like Isaiah 66:7-8 indicates.
 
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jgr

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I am well familiar with the book to which you linked, having quoted from it in my own book. If you yourself go back and carefully read the area around the passage you quoted, you will learn that Jerome took no stand on the meaning of the prophecy of the seventy weeks. Instead, he quoted what each of many earlier writers had said about this prophecy, and advised his readers to evaluate them for themselves, and decide which opinion was correct.

But if you scroll back up in the same document you linked to, you will see that in this very same document, Jerome said concerning Daniel 7:8 that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor." This was the comment that I was referring to in my earlier post.

But Jerome was far from alone in teaching futurism. It was clearly taught by Papias. Eusebius complained concerning Papias, saying, “For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.” (The Church History, by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, section 13.)

Who were these "many" others that followed the lead of Papias? Eusebius specifically named Irenaeus. But other futurist writers I have personally studied (and quoted in my book) include, among others, Justyn Martyr, Hippolytus, Victorinus, Cyril of Jerusalem, the unknown author called Pseudo-Ephraem, and the unknown author of the so-called "epistle of Barnabas." Nor are these all the futuristic Christian writers of the early church.

And after the reformation, there were MANY futuristic Christian writers in the 1600s and early 1700s, including William Lowth, whose writings I quoted from extensively, and who published a series of commentaries on the Old Testament before Riberra was even born. And my colleague William Watson cataloged about two dozen such writers from the 1600s and 1700s that even taught a rapture before the Lord would come in power and glory to judge the world.

So this claim that Futurism originated with Fransisco Riberra has been thoroughly debunked by several modern writers, including my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which is currently scheduled for release by Dispensational Publishing House on the first of November.

There were various relatively unknown essentially closet Jesuits in the earlier Church who parroted Riberan futurism. Lowth et al are examples. They are not numbered among the Reformers.

Had the earliest "futurist" scholars perchance survived until the time of the Reformation, would they have joined the ranks of fulfillment Reformers, or of futurist Jesuits?

The answer is self-evident.
 
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Douggg

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Jesus fulfilled the 70th contiguous week as planned. Antichrist did not. So we know the prophecy is about Jesus. You do not have direct scripture for a supposed gap. So this rules a gap out too.
The 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem. Not on Jesus.

The Antichrist has not come to power yet to fulfill anything.

Jesus would not have given John Revelation in 60 something AD (some claim 90 AD) which contains much prophecy regarding Daniel 's people and Jerusalem... way beyond a 7years theoretical no-gap continuation ending in around 37- 40 AD - if there was not a gap.
 
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Douggg

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No direct quotes from scripture = no gap.
No direct quote is necessary when direct information is given in the bible. Revelation was given long after some theoretical ending of the 70 weeks. Revelation contains direct information that the 70 weeks are not yet fulfilled. Which that is direct information that there is a gap between the messiah being cutoff - and the prince who shall come to confirm the covenant for 7 years, which Revelation is structured on that 7 years forthcoming.

When John saw what was in the book, he saw the seven years, in segments.
Each segment covered events to take place in either the full seven years or the second half of the seven years.

Chapter 6 the entire 7 years
Chapter 7 second half of the seven years
Chapter 8, 9 the trumpets, second half of the seven years
Chapter 10 the little book, the mystery of God no further delay, the second half
Chapter 11 the entire 7 years
Chapter 12 the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel
Chapter 13 the second half , relevant to the evil of the beast
Chapter 14 the second half, reward of the 144,000 and judgment on the wicked
Chapter 15 the second half, the vials
Chapter 16 the second half, the vials, conclusion of the great tribulation
Chapter 17 the second half, judgment
Chapter 18 the second half, judgment
Chapter 19 the second half, Jesus's Return
 
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Jipsah

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Dear Lord, please don’t turn the sun into a grapefruit.
God can do it if He is so inclined.

Which kind of propels me back to the old reliable "God Can't..." thing that some folks like to fall back on, which somehow always ends up meaning "God can't act in a way that would challenge the doctrines I hold most dear.". <Laugh>
 
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Jipsah

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Also the fact, there has been nearly 2000 years pass since the end of the 69 week, is undeniable proof of a 2 'day' gap to God, but 2000 years to us.
Or that the two solar days that elapsed after the end of the 69th week equated to 2000 years in God's reckoning. Gotta read the whole verse, ya see.

"
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8
 
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keras

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The Jews I have discussed with online say that most of them don't know what tribe they each are affiliated with. That they expect the messiah to inform them.
A person who calls himself a Jew is of the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. They are also of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

Yes Jesus will do that; He will stand on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1, and divide the vast multitude of Christians that John sees in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9-14, into 12 tribal divisions.
They will be assigned the Land as per Ezekiel 47:13-23 & 48:1-35
 
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