Does God know what we will do in the future? Our fate?

Silly Uncle Wayne

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The fact that Jonah from previous knowledge knows God can change even what He says he is going to do if the nation changes appears Jonah knew what Jer. 18 tells us: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

We mighty also assume the people of Nineveh knew what Jer. 18 taught, maybe from previous prophets going to Nineveh, who might have specifically warned of Jonah’s coming.

Actually I don’t think this is true at all. My understanding is that Jeremiah lived around 200 years after Jonah, so neither Jonah nor Nineveh would be familiar with the the quote or even the sentiment of Jer 18.
 
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God has perfect knowledge about the future, but he won't do anything to interfere with your free will.
So, if God knows in advance the way we are going to choose, then it doesn't matter what we choose, God knows already! That sounds like destiny and fate predetermined by Allah, which is not Christian doctrine. And if that is so, why bother to pray because no matter how much you pray, you won't change anything.

But, in the Bible, people who prayed did change things. So there is a conflict between reality and fantasy. The reality is that we can change the future through prayer. The fantasy is that God knows the future and has everything set in bronze already. So if things are set in bronze, how can we change them through prayer?
 
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Bobber

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He could very well have planned and set Peter up to fail because He knew about Peter's shortcomings.
No but you're missing the point. Let's assume he did plan for Peter to fail. He could set up for the potential failure to take place but he'd also set up to make sure he denied him three times and that's before sunrise? You're saying God doesn't see the future as an open book. Why not one time...two...or five or six? Why three?
 
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Bobber

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Since God at the end of time is the same God at the beginning of time he is communicating with Himself at the beginning of time so God at the beginning of time knows everything God at the end of time knows, but that does not change what God did throughout time.

Yes....those are my thoughts as well. It's not open theism but...it is something different. Really what you're saying is....TIME TRAVEL. You've just said that God at the end of time is communicating with himself at the beginning of time. That communication would be what? Information he was not aware of. One could rightly say God knew the future all the time.....but because....he changed the past. Well God didn't know the future all the time! Nope, nope, nope...he did! And one could say he did and be technically correct.

To me the belief determinists have just don't make sense.

The belief of open theism doesn't either. According to them God would know about probabilities of things taking place. They fail when it gets right down to multiple items which put it in the place where any one including God could make a perfect assessment. For example. One might predict Team A will win a sports event.

They know the strengths and weakness of the team. But could they tell you lets say baseball, how many balls and strikes will take place in the first inning? What inning a batter will get hit by a ball? How many batters will go to bat in the 6th inning? Only by knowing the future like an open book could such take place and just knowing probabilities couldn't do it. These are things however that God knows. Yes there may be prophecies that God in his sovereignty determines to happen....but all that we see in the scriptures don't speak of that.
 
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Tayla

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The concept that God gave us free will, and that he doesn't know what we will do with our free will in the future makes more sense to me
God doesn't know what we will do until we choose what to do. Once he knows it (because we did it), he knows it in his timeless essence.
 
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bling

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Actually I don’t think this is true at all. My understanding is that Jeremiah lived around 200 years after Jonah, so neither Jonah nor Nineveh would be familiar with the the quote or even the sentiment of Jer 18.
How old was that characteristic of God?
Jeremiah did not establish this characteristic of God by recording a characteristic of God. The verbal message was available about God will before it was recorded.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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How old was that characteristic of God?
Jeremiah did not establish this characteristic of God by recording a characteristic of God. The verbal message was available about God will before it was recorded.

Does it?

It may be the characteristic was always there, but not a definitive recording. So between Jonah and the recording of Jer 18, people observing God’s words and actions would only know that he had promised one thing and then changed his mind. In other words it appears as though God did not know Niniveh would repent else why make the promise?

Aldo Jeremiah 18 doesn’t solve the problem so neatly because it records that God responds according to nation’s actions, meaning that he does not know those actions, but rather responds when it happens.
 
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bling

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Does it?

It may be the characteristic was always there, but not a definitive recording. So between Jonah and the recording of Jer 18, people observing God’s words and actions would only know that he had promised one thing and then changed his mind. In other words it appears as though God did not know Niniveh would repent else why make the promise?

Aldo Jeremiah 18 doesn’t solve the problem so neatly because it records that God responds according to nation’s actions, meaning that he does not know those actions, but rather responds when it happens.

Yes it does.

God is not trying to hide this stuff. A lot of what is recorded Old Testament or New Testament was verbally known ahead of time and would have been conveyed to the people. Did the people wait to the Gospels were written to know about Christ?

You have to realize God has a very weird unique way of communicating a warning or contingent blessing on people/nations that we would never need to use because we do not know the future, so we can say “if”. Jerimiah 18 is giving us God’s communication of a warning to us with, Jerimiah 18:7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

The reason God can present this promise as a contingent “if” is because He is talking about what He is going to do and is trying to make it a warning contingent on the person or people’s actions. If like Christ said: “You will deny me three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows” that is prophecy concerning people or a person behavior, so will/did happen.

You said: “He does not know those actions, but rather responds when it happens.” That is not what Jer. 18 is saying since God could completely know the nation chose to repent in the future and still make the announcement “I promise to destroy you” and later not destroy them? (this is all according to Jer. 18: 7-8).

The reason God presents this very one of a kind unique method of communication has to be the fact that He does know the future. God cannot warn people with “if you do this, I will do that” since that conveys the idea God does not know what they did in the future, even though stating it as a contingency on their behavior would be strong warning and the way we do it.
 
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eleos1954

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Was having this discussion with my dad, he made some good points. For example, we all have free will and we are what determine our destiny. I was arguing that God knows our fate, and what we will do in the future, but that view changed.

If God knows exactly what we're going to do, then why did Hitler exist if his fate was already predetermined that he was going to go to hell?

Or does God not know what we will do in the future with our free will? Did God know that when Hitler was born that he was going to mass murder Jews, and did God already have Hitler in the book of death before his existence?

The concept that God gave us free will, and that he doesn't know what we will do with our free will in the future makes more sense to me, but what are your thoughts or objections aside from prophecies, I understand God knew the prophecies very well and planned out, but what about our future actions. Does God know those?

Speaking in the context of Salvation ... there is a difference between knowing something is going to happen and causing something to happen. God knows who will choose Jesus but does not force the decision.

Predestination is God’s predetermination that all those whom He foresees responding willingly to the invitation to come and believe, will be permitted to drink. They will be justified by faith in Jesus.

But God will not force you to accept Him nor will He deny you if you are willing to believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness for your sin. He will pardon you, and justify you freely “through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24).

"If God knows exactly what we're going to do, then why did Hitler exist if his fate was already predetermined that he was going to go to hell?"

In your Hitler scenario ... He knew Hitler would not choose Jesus ... but Hitler and all have the opportunity to choose Jesus ... or not ... and He knows what peoples choices will be (choosing Jesus) but does not force their decision (to choose Jesus).

Rev 3:20

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me

All are invited ... not all accept the invitation.
 
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Bobber

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The big question is: "Is the future knowable? Does it actually exist, or is it dynamically created by the decisions and actions of the present? The past does not exist in reality, but only in recorded history through books, movies, and memory. But memory fades, and God is the only One who has perfect, accurate memory of past events. The only reality is the present, but even after typing that, the first part my sentence is now in the very recent past.

Well you say the past does not exist. Not sure about that. There is a possibility men who study physics suggest if one could go faster than light they'd experience back wards time motion. I think they say this is how the mathematics of it would go so could it be the past could be connected to? Don't know but it is interesting.
 
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Well you say the past does not exist. Not sure about that. There is a possibility men who study physics suggest if one could go faster than light they'd experience back wards time motion. I think they say this is how the mathematics of it would go so could it be the past could be connected to? Don't know but it is interesting.
Hasn't been achieved yet. It is hard to describe the stream of events in eternity as "time" because we are so used to having time measured by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun.

If you were on Venus, being a smaller planet, a day would be shorter and so would a year. It would have to be measured differently. If you were on Mars, a day might be roughly the same if Mars is roughly the same size as earth, but a year would be longer. So the measurement of time is relative to what planet you are on in the solar system. I wonder how you would measure time on Pluto? A Pluto year could almost take a lifetime!

So, if you got on a spaceship and travelled into deep space away from the influence of the sun, how would you measure time then? You would have no sun or revolving planet to base your measurement on. You would have to measure it artificially through an accurate chronometer on your spaceship, and turn all the lights out to simulate darkness.

So, if God lives in a place outside our universe, and we were able to get there in our spaceship, we would still have our simulated measurement of time, and because we are mortal, our time would come to an end. But God has no beginning nor end, so He carries on without end.

It is conceivable that He did things before He created our universe. I can't imagine God sitting around doing nothing. He is a creator. Perhaps there are other creations outside of our universe that we know nothing of. We don't have enough information to say there is or not; but we do know something of God's nature and character, and we know that there are created beings in heaven besides angels. The book of Revelation speaks about "elders". Who are they, and where do they come from?

If all knowledge is the whole "pie", then our knowledge is the thinnest slice of that "pie". There are vast areas outside of our knowledge, and the extent of God's foreknowledge lies mainly outside of the little slice of knowledge we have been given.
 
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Bobber

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Hasn't been achieved yet. It is hard to describe the stream of events in eternity as "time" because we are so used to having time measured by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun.

If you were on Venus, being a smaller planet, a day would be shorter and so would a year. It would have to be measured differently. If you were on Mars, a day might be roughly the same if Mars is roughly the same size as earth, but a year would be longer. So the measurement of time is relative to what planet you are on in the solar system. I wonder how you would measure time on Pluto? A Pluto year could almost take a lifetime!

What you said is true above but I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm meaning by saying "time" changes and is measured differently. I may not explain it well myself but as one accelerates to higher speeds one's atomic clock runs slower. If one could attain the speed of light time would stop. If one could pass over the speed of light, in theory at least according the the math....time would go backwards.
 
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Bobber

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So, if God lives in a place outside our universe, and we were able to get there in our spaceship, we would still have our simulated measurement of time, and because we are mortal, our time would come to an end. But God has no beginning nor end, so He carries on without end.

Well my thought is this. When Jesus said he came down from ABOVE he wasn't referring to a place physically above our heads. ABOVE is used to describe the order of existence and the only way to describe it in comparison to the earth or rather the whole physical universe....is that it's ABOVE...the nature of what it is is superior.

It's not really a thing of physical distances....it's you can have a higher order of existence or universe occupying the same place as this physical place. The word Spirit or spirit talks about God or spiritual entities but also the order of existence. We say the physical universe but there's also the universe of the spirit, or the order thereof.

It is conceivable that He did things before He created our universe. I can't imagine God sitting around doing nothing.

Haha...well who knows. Only God. But then you have to ask at what time did he do his first creation of whatever. And if there was a first time who's to say our creation wasn't that first time? I think we could agree we'd never know.
 
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What you said is true above but I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm meaning by saying "time" changes and is measured differently. I may not explain it well myself but as one accelerates to higher speeds one's atomic clock runs slower. If one could attain the speed of light time would stop. If one could pass over the speed of light, in theory at least according the the math....time would go backwards.
I put instant coffee in a microwave oven and almost went back in time.
Steven Wright
 
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I have considered this topic before and came to the conclusion that God clearly knows the entire history of creation (and before). i suppose like a supercomputer that has calculated and accounted for all possibilities, and the creation has be designed to account for all free will choices made by creations within it. ie: He knew Hitler would do as he did(as this reference seems popular) and allowed it, as with all other sin/evil/corruption/imbalance of creation/s.(spirits/angels and material beings).
it is all part of the greater lesson of history of good and evil that must occur along with each individuals experience of imperfection within creation, however brief in relation to children etc.(just a brief experience of the imperfect/corrupt creation must be sufficient when combined with greater overall lesson of creation). Having experienced such, those glorified in next age post judgement day will therefore have inbuilt innoculation to evil/sin/imbalance like a self correcting internal compass. (which i think will perhaps be expressed by a halo) Apparently this is all necessary for God's overall plan to create balanced, trustworthy companions or else it wouldn't have been done as it sounds like a bit of an effort.
the only conceivable reason to do so would be to create equals. Some christians may shun from such a consideration however scripture states we will be glorified and share Christ's/Gods throne and only equals can do so.
I cannot accept God would be content having predictable companions for eternity so i reason that beyond that glorification event, the future is not known to God the way history is up to that point. This is then why there is only a simple view is given of the new heaven and earth and not much on what occurs in that eternal age/realm.
-thats what i rekn anywayz
 
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I'm not sure about God allowing evil things to happen to people. I know that God is sovereign in that He does things His way and does not have to give an account to anyone about the decisions He makes. This makes our salvation even more precious to us and the grace of God brighter and more valuable because He chose us to receive Christ and salvation, while, although not willing that any should perish, and that He has extended the invitation to all, not all responded positively to the gospel and therefore are still lost.

It shows that God does not always get things His own way. This is because we have free choice about whether we accept God's will for us or not.

If anyone believes that God chooses or allows evil when He can choose otherwise, is foolish and manipulative, We will suffer hardship because of persecution, but it is not God's will for us to suffer and have hardship for any other reason.

It is like saying that it is God's will that people are murdered, raped, molested, live in poverty, diseased, and die. Some say that God causes evil to teach us something. It is like if I poisoned the town's water supply and then found the antidote. I might be praised and honoured for saving the lives of the people, but when they find out I poisoned the water, I would be charged as a criminal and sent to prison. Is God criminal like that? I say definitely no!

I don't think that a Cessationist who would rather see people die slow agonising deaths from cancer and other diseases because he does not believe that God heals today and therefore will not minister divine healing to them, can actually pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Because there is no disease or death in heaven. But a Cessationist says that there is disease and death in heaven because he teaches that it is not God's will to heal a person who has incurable cancer or Aids, or any other disability or disease that cannot be healed by medical science.

A Cessationist praying, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is being an out and out hypocrite because he is not prepared to see God's being done on earth at all! He is basically saying that it is God's will that people die slow agonising deaths because He does not heal today (according to their religious theology).

In that regard, because a Cessationist does not accept God's will on earth as it is in heaven, he might have to talk fast when he stands before God in the Judgment.
 
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I'm not sure about God allowing evil things to happen to people. I know that God is sovereign in that He does things His way and does not have to give an account to anyone about the decisions He makes. This makes our salvation even more precious to us and the grace of God brighter and more valuable because He chose us to receive Christ and salvation, while, although not willing that any should perish, and that He has extended the invitation to all, not all responded positively to the gospel and therefore are still lost.

It shows that God does not always get things His own way. This is because we have free choice about whether we accept God's will for us or not.

If anyone believes that God chooses or allows evil when He can choose otherwise, is foolish and manipulative, We will suffer hardship because of persecution, but it is not God's will for us to suffer and have hardship for any other reason.

It is like saying that it is God's will that people are murdered, raped, molested, live in poverty, diseased, and die. Some say that God causes evil to teach us something. It is like if I poisoned the town's water supply and then found the antidote. I might be praised and honoured for saving the lives of the people, but when they find out I poisoned the water, I would be charged as a criminal and sent to prison. Is God criminal like that? I say definitely no!

I don't think that a Cessationist who would rather see people die slow agonising deaths from cancer and other diseases because he does not believe that God heals today and therefore will not minister divine healing to them, can actually pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Because there is no disease or death in heaven. But a Cessationist says that there is disease and death in heaven because he teaches that it is not God's will to heal a person who has incurable cancer or Aids, or any other disability or disease that cannot be healed by medical science.

A Cessationist praying, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is being an out and out hypocrite because he is not prepared to see God's being done on earth at all! He is basically saying that it is God's will that people die slow agonising deaths because He does not heal today (according to their religious theology).

In that regard, because a Cessationist does not accept God's will on earth as it is in heaven, he might have to talk fast when he stands before God in the Judgment.

I'm not sure if your post was a reply to mine but in case it was i must point out that -

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
"A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps"
"being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"
"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."
"i will do all my pleasure" *hint - (That big book called the bible says these things)

you said, "If anyone believes that God chooses or allows evil when He can choose otherwise, is foolish and manipulative"
i think you mean foolish or intent on evil, manipulation after all can be towards good,
but the important point is that the the evil allowed is necessary for the creation of beings capable of being glorified, so god doesn't enjoy the temporary suffering within the creation, but it is still his will and pleasure that it all occurs.
your water supply analogy is off completely as the poison and antidote don't confer eternal life as glorified co-heirs with yeshuah, it just gets people sick then back to how they were before.
If created us and satan, let satan tempt us, let us be deceived, then provides yeshuah for the antidote then i would not be overly grateful for yeshuah's sacrifice at all, but because its for our glorification process,
(something not possible for pre-knowledge of good and evil adam and eve) then good.
Overall tho that redemption was gods responsibility for creating beings that were capable of knowing good and evil to begin with, so i am not the type of happy clappy christian that only lives to praise jesus for saving me, fk that, its because god is allmighty and has great plans for us in the new heaven and earth, (and here now + millenial kingdom to a limited degree) that i honor him.
i don't know what the rest of your post is going on about really but i'm going to have dinner, yum
 
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I'm not sure if your post was a reply to mine but in case it was i must point out that -

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
"A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps"
"being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"
"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."
"i will do all my pleasure" *hint - (That big book called the bible says these things)

you said, "If anyone believes that God chooses or allows evil when He can choose otherwise, is foolish and manipulative"
i think you mean foolish or intent on evil, manipulation after all can be towards good,
but the important point is that the the evil allowed is necessary for the creation of beings capable of being glorified, so god doesn't enjoy the temporary suffering within the creation, but it is still his will and pleasure that it all occurs.
your water supply analogy is off completely as the poison and antidote don't confer eternal life as glorified co-heirs with yeshuah, it just gets people sick then back to how they were before.
If created us and satan, let satan tempt us, let us be deceived, then provides yeshuah for the antidote then i would not be overly grateful for yeshuah's sacrifice at all, but because its for our glorification process,
(something not possible for pre-knowledge of good and evil adam and eve) then good.
Overall tho that redemption was gods responsibility for creating beings that were capable of knowing good and evil to begin with, so i am not the type of happy clappy christian that only lives to praise jesus for saving me, fk that, its because god is allmighty and has great plans for us in the new heaven and earth, (and here now + millenial kingdom to a limited degree) that i honor him.
i don't know what the rest of your post is going on about really but i'm going to have dinner, yum
If, as we believe that Jesus is the revealing of the Father and His nature to humankind, then how come Jesus never deliberately made anyone suffer or have hardship so that good may come out of it or that God may be glorified. Some asked the question, "What sin did man's parents do that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It is the healing of the man, giving him sight, which glorifies God". Therefore, the disability did not glorify God, but the miracle of healing.

If the fruit of the Spirit is the reflection of God's character in us, then if God acted in any other way, wouldn't that be hypocritical? If God expects us to conduct ourselves with love, peace, joy, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, and self-control, wouldn't God be conducting Himself in the same way. Is that Christ in us, the hope of glory?

So, does God will cancer, rape, genocide, molestation, robbery, embezzlement, poverty, ethnic cleansing for people? Or is it because man has free choice and therefore it is man's will that frustrates God's will for mankind, which is to give all people a future and a hope?

If you think that God is a bad God who wills evil things on people, then that must be God's will in heaven. So your prayer "Thy will be done as it is in heaven", means that cancer, rape, molestation, genocide, etc are in heaven and that you are praying that these things are to happen on earth as part of God's will for people. There is something wrong with that picture, is it not?

But if these evil things do not exist in heaven, then the prayer is that none of these things should be happening on earth if God is to have His own way. Otherwise, you cannot honestly pray that prayer without being hypocritical.

Therefore if these things are not the will of God, or are His intention for us for any reason, then we have to say that these evil things are the work of the devil. And Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to put it on people for some reason.

When God says that He has made the wicked for the day of evil, and that He does all things for His pleasure, one has to balance that with His unwllingness that any should perish but that all may come to repentence. But many refuse God's invitation, so they will come to judgment. Also, God gets no pleasure in evil. That's what my Bible says too.

So, you if you encounter a person with terminal cancer, what are you going to do? Say it is God's will for that person to suffer and die a slow agonsing death to glorify God? How does that relate to the fruit of the Spirit?

Or are you going to do what Jesus commanded you to do - use your faith and heal the person in the Name of Jesus? That's what a friend of Jesus would do, because He said, "You are My friends if you do what I command you." So if you don't use the Name of Jesus to heal that person, then are you really a friend of Jesus, doing what He commands you to do?
 
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If, as we believe that Jesus is the revealing of the Father and His nature to humankind, then how come Jesus never deliberately made anyone suffer or have hardship so that good may come out of it or that God may be glorified. Some asked the question, "What sin did man's parents do that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It is the healing of the man, giving him sight, which glorifies God". Therefore, the disability did not glorify God, but the miracle of healing.

If the fruit of the Spirit is the reflection of God's character in us, then if God acted in any other way, wouldn't that be hypocritical? If God expects us to conduct ourselves with love, peace, joy, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, and self-control, wouldn't God be conducting Himself in the same way. Is that Christ in us, the hope of glory?

So, does God will cancer, rape, genocide, molestation, robbery, embezzlement, poverty, ethnic cleansing for people? Or is it because man has free choice and therefore it is man's will that frustrates God's will for mankind, which is to give all people a future and a hope?

If you think that God is a bad God who wills evil things on people, then that must be God's will in heaven. So your prayer "Thy will be done as it is in heaven", means that cancer, rape, molestation, genocide, etc are in heaven and that you are praying that these things are to happen on earth as part of God's will for people. There is something wrong with that picture, is it not?

But if these evil things do not exist in heaven, then the prayer is that none of these things should be happening on earth if God is to have His own way. Otherwise, you cannot honestly pray that prayer without being hypocritical.

Therefore if these things are not the will of God, or are His intention for us for any reason, then we have to say that these evil things are the work of the devil. And Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to put it on people for some reason.

When God says that He has made the wicked for the day of evil, and that He does all things for His pleasure, one has to balance that with His unwllingness that any should perish but that all may come to repentence. But many refuse God's invitation, so they will come to judgment. Also, God gets no pleasure in evil. That's what my Bible says too.

So, you if you encounter a person with terminal cancer, what are you going to do? Say it is God's will for that person to suffer and die a slow agonsing death to glorify God? How does that relate to the fruit of the Spirit?

Or are you going to do what Jesus commanded you to do - use your faith and heal the person in the Name of Jesus? That's what a friend of Jesus would do, because He said, "You are My friends if you do what I command you." So if you don't use the Name of Jesus to heal that person, then are you really a friend of Jesus, doing what He commands you to do?


Your reply is waffle. in no way would an example of jesu, when here in in body, making someone suffer for an eventual greater good prove or disprove the logic of my proposition, you can make up as much crap to convince yourself your right as you want.
jeshua was here for the purpose of being a perfect sacrifice to take responsibility for/facilitate the redemption of beings god created and do some teaching on the side.
you avoid, weakly, the fact that god himself says many times and ways, as i noted clearly, all that is, has been and will be is his will and pleasure. end of story.
to carry on this debate address that, although i hope you don't as i can tell you'll just present more of the same flawed nonsense and i'd just be waste more time trying to get back to actual the issues. quit spinning the sunday school nonsense.
yes we should treat each other as we would want to be treated, bla bla off topic.
mortals are not god.
god does as god wills and being the only god needs to do stuff we don't and shouldn't.
so i don't suggest people attempt to use evil/sin in order to use it for greater good, you will probably stuff up.
that evil is temporarily used for a greater purpose by god tho does not mean god is bad. its just what is needed. all who are glorified for eternity will be accepting of the need to have experienced sin/the imperfect world temporarily, bit of a no brainer really.
I see no reason to not pray for god to heal someone, or to seek medical attention if it is in accordance to gods laws/golden rule etc. if they are healed great, but god still created cancer, and you, and me, and satan, are all allowed to exist(and people that are either too stupid or too vain to know/admit their wrong)

its really no problem if you keep on seeing god as having no responsibility for sin, just keep on playing those amy grant cd's and swaying in bliss,it does no particular harm, your a nice person and do good in general i'm sure.
but that belief when followed to its end would mean god isn't responsible for the eternal benefit sins temporary existence has for those who experienced in order to be glorified.
- and don't say as "we" believe pal, u and me believe some different stuff.
 
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Your reply is waffle. in no way would an example of jesu, when here in in body, making someone suffer for an eventual greater good prove or disprove the logic of my proposition, you can make up as much crap to convince yourself your right as you want.

So, we have got that bit straight then. Jesus definitely does not cause people to suffer for the greater good.

jeshua was here for the purpose of being a perfect sacrifice to take responsibility for/facilitate the redemption of beings god created and do some teaching on the side.

He gave a few commands too, like "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, and preach the good news to the poor."

you avoid, weakly, the fact that god himself says many times and ways, as i noted clearly, all that is, has been and will be is his will and pleasure. end of story.

So you are still saying that disease, poverty, sexual crime, genocide are all His will for mankind? Something wrong with that picture!

to carry on this debate address that, although i hope you don't as i can tell you'll just present more of the same flawed nonsense and i'd just be waste more time trying to get back to actual the issues. quit spinning the sunday school nonsense.

Kicking the player instead of the ball doesn't achieve anything.

yes we should treat each other as we would want to be treated, bla bla off topic.
mortals are not god.
god does as god wills and being the only god needs to do stuff we don't and shouldn't.
so i don't suggest people attempt to use evil/sin in order to use it for greater good, you will probably stuff up.
that evil is temporarily used for a greater purpose by god tho does not mean god is bad. its just what is needed. all who are glorified for eternity will be accepting of the need to have experienced sin/the imperfect world temporarily, bit of a no brainer really.

If you believe that, then don't pray, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" because you don't believe that. If you did, you would see that the evil in the world is not God's will because it does not exist in heaven. God's will is done in heaven, and none of the evil exists there, and the prayer is very clear - "Let the will of God, as it is done in heaven, be done here on earth." But if you pray that prayer and then say that evil is God's will on earth, then your prayer would be hypocritical because you would be praying something opposite to what you believe.

I see no reason to not pray for god to heal someone, or to seek medical attention if it is in accordance to gods laws/golden rule etc. if they are healed great, but god still created cancer,

I don't see that in the Bible. You are saying that God has created the diseases that cause suffering to people! But Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and He healed people of their diseases. So, are you attributing the works of the devil (sickness, disease, rape, molestation, genocide, etc) to the creation of God??

I and you, and me, and satan, are all allowed to exist(and people that are either too stupid or too vain to know/admit their wrong)

its really no problem if you keep on seeing god as having no responsibility for sin, just keep on playing those amy grant cd's and swaying in bliss,it does no particular harm, your a nice person and do good in general i'm sure.

Flattery will get you everywhere! Actually, we are responsible for the sin in the world, not God. He has given us the Name of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit to deal with it, and the evil in the world, but we don't use it because we underestimate the resurrection power we have in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

but that belief when followed to its end would mean god isn't responsible for the eternal benefit sins temporary existence has for those who experienced in order to be glorified.
- and don't say as "we" believe pal, u and me believe some different stuff.

You are ignoring many Scriptures that make it clear to us that God's will is enacted through us as we exercise our faith in His Word. In the First Century, believers using their faith and the power of the Holy Spirit, overturned the Roman Empire, and turned the pagan world to Christ. These days, because of the general belief that God has created disease and allows evil to exist in the world and there is nothing we can do about it, society is going back to paganism. The truth is that many professing Christs simply don't believe God's word and are faithless when confronted with evil in the world. They don't know how to overcome evil with good. It's all very well being religious and going to our church services with their three hymns and sermon and going home full of tea and cake instead of the Holy Spirit, but one day we will all stand before God and He will ask us, "Why, did you not use My power to heal the sick, raise the dead, destroy the works of the devil in your community? I gave you the power. You were My arms and legs, but you sat on your chuff in church on Sundays, lived as anyone in the world during the week, and did nothing of what I told you, clearly set out in My Word."

How will you answer that question?
 
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