Worldview Discussion - Part 2

anonymous person said:

Having wrapped up our discussion concerning the four questions every worldview deals with, we will now turn our attention to the rational warrant for the various worldviews discussed. I am interested in hearing from everyone who participated in the first discussion (and anyone who didn't for that matter but desires to join us) what rational warrant they have for holding the worldview they do. That is to say, what reasons, evidence, and arguments are there for the views you hold?

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Greetings.

IMO my views are based on proof - not merely evidence. This proof involves the Laws governing Reality itself: timeless, pertinent laws which can be directly & personally verified by the individual in the here-and-now. The Noble Eightfold Path is, in essence, the systematic practice of understanding and mastering those Laws to address the most fundamental factor underlying all volitional activity in observable existence: discontentment.

Do you perceive a superior warrant for a belief-based, evidentiary worldview (i.e. obedience towards ephemeral laws written in fallible writings which posits things that cannot be directly & personally verified by the individual in the here-and-now), a worldview which only addresses a symptom or symptoms of the aforementioned fundamental factor?

ananda said:

Greetings.

IMO my views are based on proof - not merely evidence. This proof involves the Laws governing Reality itself: timeless, pertinent laws which can be directly & personally verified by the individual in the here-and-now. The Noble Eightfold Path is, in essence, the systematic practice of understanding and mastering those Laws to address the most fundamental factor underlying all volitional activity in observable existence: discontentment.

Do you perceive a superior warrant for a belief-based, evidentiary worldview (i.e. obedience towards ephemeral laws written in fallible writings which posits things that cannot be directly & personally verified by the individual in the here-and-now), a worldview which only addresses a symptom or symptoms of the aforementioned fundamental factor?

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I put Christ's instructions to the test.

Over and over.

And learned their verifiable outcomes.

Anyone could, with time and a show-me- proof attitude, or even just wanting peace and to become more realized, like a flower that blooms.

Halbhh said:

I put Christ's instructions to the test.

Over and over.

And learned their verifiable outcomes.

Anyone could, with time and a show-me- proof attitude, or even just wanting peace and to become more realized, like a flower that blooms.

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Given that the fundamental end-goal of the Christian faith is eternal life, then - after putting the instructions of an alleged Christ figure to the test - do you claim you have observed an extension to your lifespan?

Note that, with my question above, I am focusing on a religion or philosophy's ability to address its own perceived "fundamental issue in life", e.g. discontentment & suffering for Buddhism, death & eternal life for Christianity, etc. Therefore, my question above is focused on each path's ability to verify that it can and does resolve (at least in part) its own perceived fundamental issue:

• Does practice of the Buddhist Path observably resolve its issue regarding discontentment & suffering in life for a disciple? It is my observation that it does.
• Does practice of the Christian path observably resolve its issue regarding death & eternal life for a disciple? I have not observed this at all - whether in whole, or in part.
  
• Etc.

Now, some might say that by practicing the Christian path, they have grown in love, peace, joy, etc. That may be the case, but those are secondary issues & does not address its perceived fundamental issue regarding death & eternal life.

anonymous person said:

Having wrapped up our discussion concerning the four questions every worldview deals with, we will now turn our attention to the rational warrant for the various worldviews discussed. I am interested in hearing from everyone who participated in the first discussion (and anyone who didn't for that matter but desires to join us) what rational warrant they have for holding the worldview they do. That is to say, what reasons, evidence, and arguments are there for the views you hold?

Click to expand...

My views based on the questions asked in the original thread stem from scientific consensus, my own rationality and observation of the world and my socio-cultural programming via my upbringing. I do not see the evidence for many religions and thus largely do not consider them to be an accurate picture of reality. I conduct life largely based on this premise.

In terms of truth proofs, rather than me rehashing poorly the arguments of scientists, I could simply provide primary sources for matters such as the Big Bang and the Origin of the Species. If there's a specific belief that you'd like to drill down to why I hold it then I will need to know which belief you'd want to talk about.

anonymous person said:

... why do you think that Buddha's teachings about these laws and about rebirth and about ultimate reality being one and impermanent are true? Why think that what Buddha taught is actually true and not something he created from his own imagination? Buddha made truth claims about such things as morality, ultimate reality, the nature of human beings, suffering etc ...

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Details - such as the various truth claims - in the Buddha's teachings revolve around discontentment, its cause, its solution, and the Path to achieve that solution.

The Buddha is compared to a traveler who reached the end of His journey - attained the solution - and came back to provide a map of the Path which He took in order to reach His destination, for others to follow. His truth claims can then be compared to:

• claims about the nature of various places along the Path itself,
• future landmarks one should pay attention to as one progresses on the Path,
• suggestions about the tools needed to successfully traverse the Path,
  
• realities He observed further along on the Path, etc.

I agree, someone who has not traveled that Path could legitimately question the mapmaker's claims (e.g. as figments of imagination, etc.) However, it is to be understood that His teachings are not only to be believed to reach the destination. Believing that the map points correctly to its destination is merely the starting point; walking the whole Path itself is ultimately necessary.

The Path He taught is a graduated Path; it is meant to be a progressive walk for the disciple towards the final destination/goal/solution (nibbana). In that sense, He suggests that his disciple will, and must, personally observe and realize the same truth claims He posited as he progresses to the relevant points along the Path, and come to personal knowledge of those things - and to gradually grow in confidence in the truth of the rest of His Path by progressively realizing the most important, fundamental thing: a gradual increase in cessation of discontentment.

What reasons, arguments, and evidence do you have for thinking these claims are true?

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To the extent I have practiced walking His Path, I will say that I have personally verified His truths claims thus far. I also agree with His assessment of the fundamental issue regarding life, as it explains for me all of life's activities.

How would you answer your own questions, in terms of your Christianity?

anonymous person said:

Having wrapped up our discussion concerning the four questions every worldview deals with, we will now turn our attention to the rational warrant for the various worldviews discussed. I am interested in hearing from everyone who participated in the first discussion (and anyone who didn't for that matter but desires to join us) what rational warrant they have for holding the worldview they do. That is to say, what reasons, evidence, and arguments are there for the views you hold?

Click to expand...

Eh, I find a handful of arguments interesting, particularly Aquinas's Five Ways, but when it comes down to it, my reasons are existential. I think reality is impossible, I think the universe is impossible, and I think my own existential is the most impossible of all. Not improbable--impossible. Theism and idealism are the only options out there that can respond to this, and idealism either entails theism or means that I am in some sense God myself, and I'd really rather not head in that direction. So it's theism or insanity, basically.

I was trying to hold out on a revelation-free theism and identifying as a Platonist in the first discussion, but frankly, there's only one alleged divine revelation out there profound and challenging enough to be true, and if God did once speak, then I would really rather listen instead of going my own way and borrowing half the theology anyway. And so, I give up and accept Pascal's Wager.

ananda said:

Given that the fundamental end-goal of the Christian faith is eternal life, then - after putting the instructions of an alleged Christ figure to the test - do you claim you have observed an extension to your lifespan?

Note that, with my question above, I am focusing on a religion or philosophy's ability to address its own perceived "fundamental issue in life", e.g. discontentment & suffering for Buddhism, death & eternal life for Christianity, etc. Therefore, my question above is focused on each path's ability to verify that it can and does resolve (at least in part) its own perceived fundamental issue:

• Does practice of the Buddhist Path observably resolve its issue regarding discontentment & suffering in life for a disciple? It is my observation that it does.
• Does practice of the Christian path observably resolve its issue regarding death & eternal life for a disciple? I have not observed this at all - whether in whole, or in part.
  
• Etc.

Now, some might say that by practicing the Christian path, they have grown in love, peace, joy, etc. That may be the case, but those are secondary issues & does not address its perceived fundamental issue regarding death & eternal life.

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Well, my life span was extended twice, as best I can tell, from 2 instances where death was likely, a miraculous save. But that's not actually the verifiable evidence I was referring to. The thing that can be tested and verified for results is putting Christ's instructions into practice right now, and seeing if you life improves, right now, within months. Your absolute quality of existence, life, here and now.

Here's a very specific testable instruction past the ones I've already told you:

28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

This is quite clear -- those who are weary and burdened in life, stressed, if they will truly come to Christ in faith and learn from Him and do as He says, they will find rest for their souls now, here, in this life.

They find peace and rest even during the storms of life.

Halbhh said:

Well, my life span was extended twice, as best I can tell, from 2 instances where death was likely, a miraculous save. But that's not actually the verifiable evidence I was referring to. The thing that can be tested and verified for results is putting Christ's instructions into practice right now, and seeing if you life improves, right now, within months. Your absolute quality of existence, life, here and now.

Here's a very specific testable instruction past the ones I've already told you:

28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

This is quite clear -- those who are weary and burdened in life, stressed, if they will truly come to Christ in faith and learn from Him and do as He says, they will find rest for their souls now, here, in this life.

They find peace and rest even during the storms of life.

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The problem with that, from my perspective, is that your current experience is incidental to Christianity's fundamental end-goal of eternal life.

It's like - on one hand - asserting "I'm looking forward to the promises given to me by the clubhouse about their delicious lunch tomorrow!" and then suggesting that the following verifies that assertion: "I enjoyed a television show today at the clubhouse."

anonymous person said:

That is to say, what reasons, evidence, and arguments are there for the views you hold?

Click to expand...

I'm an agnostic because I simply don't see convincing evidence for a God, especially not one who cares about each individual person and wants to have something to do with everyone. Some form of deism seems more likely to be true, to me.

As for my worldview, I guess it would be most correct to call it a Buddhistic, because it's in Buddhism I find the claims that are most obviously and undeniably true. For example the idea of interdependence. It's obviously true that everything depends on, and is connected with, everything else. It can sound a little "duh, you don't say..." but if you really think about it, it will change the way you perceive the world. For one thing it'll make you much less judgmental because you'll start to realize that people (including you) do things for reasons that are ultimately beyond their control. So it's not just a statement of a fact, it's a way of living, and it's solid and tangible in a way that most religions just can't offer.

Same with other core concepts in Buddhism like the causes and cures for suffering etc.

ananda said:

To the extent I have practiced walking His Path, I will say that I have personally verified His truths claims thus far. I also agree with His assessment of the fundamental issue regarding life, as it explains for me all of life's activities.

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But that's basically how @Halbhh and many other Christians think too, isn't it? They've seen enough proof so far to make them trust in the rest of the claims. I remember using that same argument for myself when I was a Christian. It was basically "well Jesus said he would give me peace, and he did, so he's probably right about the other stuff too."

holo said:

But that's basically how @Halbhh and many other Christians think too, isn't it? They've seen enough proof so far to make them trust in the rest of the claims. I remember using that same argument for myself when I was a Christian. It was basically "well Jesus said he would give me peace, and he did, so he's probably right about the other stuff too."

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Oh yes! You're right, I've seen this more times than not, now that you mention it. Someone had an experience, they link to Christianity, and so then they stop researching all other claims. I suspect the same thing happens in all religions but now that I can out words to it, it's going to be really noticable to me.

holo said:

But that's basically how @Halbhh and many other Christians think too, isn't it? They've seen enough proof so far to make them trust in the rest of the claims. I remember using that same argument for myself when I was a Christian. It was basically "well Jesus said he would give me peace, and he did, so he's probably right about the other stuff too."

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Yes, that seems to be the case.

Their argument would be far stronger in my eyes if their current experiences are related to their end goal.

Instead of "Jesus gives me peace, therefore his promises of eternal life must be true" (peace is unrelated to eternal life), they could say this: "Jesus continues to extend my life span - I'm now 270 years old! - therefore his promises of eternal life must be true" (lifespan is clearly related to eternal life).

Even if they could claim the latter, there still remains the question: is their end goal misplaced?

The sorcery on the hearts that keeps people from realizing the family of the reminder, their archetype form in the past down to the present, is best explained, by evil forces and deceiving manipulators, and real time black magic on the hearts of majority of Muslims.

The proof lies in you seeing how clear they are in Quran and how clear they been emphasized therein by the Sunnah and the good arguments by the family of the reminder.

The blindness is best explained by sinister forces and black magic.

That is why the Quran ends by what it ends.

And so the fight between good and evil has become more then obvious to me.

It has in the past been about blinding people to the family of the reminder before the Torah, after the Torah, and Quran faced the same attack, except because Quran is not distorted, it's all out propaganda that seems to work but only due to a more sinister force at work which is at the level of the hearts.

This reality is beyond clear to me. And I don't think deception and forcing people to be blind to it by dark magic, can have an excuse, for good reasons.

Not only that, but it's obvious to me, the evil forces their task for a long time, from the killing of our Prophet to now, has been to keep this clear truth hidden.

The way the Quran is recited is very abnormal. Very abnormal. There is a heavy veil regarding it. And when everything clicks and is clear, by context, you will know what I mean.

Although there is rational arguments for Prophethood and divine leadership, those are not enough to prove a particular Prophet and leaders.

But the fact that the family of Mohammad face this degree of envy and hatred, and their followers receive oppression, shows something is going on that cannot be rationalize by any secular way.

ananda said:

The problem with that, from my perspective, is that your current experience is incidental to Christianity's fundamental end-goal of eternal life.

It's like - on one hand - asserting "I'm looking forward to the promises given to me by the clubhouse about their delicious lunch tomorrow!" and then suggesting that the following verifies that assertion: "I enjoyed a television show today at the clubhouse."

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Well eternal life is not immortality. Everybody lives forever, some in Hell, others in Heaven.

Eternal life is knowing God, just like Joseph knew Mary. Union. Resulting in a purposeful life, to subdue Creation.

John 17:3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

......
John 17"20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am inYou. May they also be in Us, so that the worldmay believe that You sent Me.

Judaism calls eternal life Chayei Olam, a type of life that is lived in Olam Haba, the world to come. They contrast this with Chayei Sha' ah, fleeting life, pointless life. Camus could tell us a few things about THAT...

Eternal refers to substance, not time. Eternal living is substantial living.

Eternal Life - Chayei Olam

Quote
An interesting insight comes from how the term "eternal life", chayei olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) was understood by Jews in Jesus' time.1 While the phrase often had our understanding of life after death, chayei olam often had a different emphasis, when it wascontrasted with "chayei sha'ah" (fleeting life). Chayei sha'ah, fleeting life, is living a life that is only concerned about everyday things - working, making money, eating, and sleeping. Chayei olam, "lasting life" or "a life of eternity" refers to living a life focused on matters of eternal importance.

Traditionally, Jewish people have considered the study of the Bible truly living out one's "eternal life." A story is told about a rabbi who spent years in study of the Scriptures, and then walked past farmers tilling their land. He remarked, "they have abandoned lasting life (chayei olam) and involve themselves instead with fleeting life (chayei sha'ah)." 2

Which those in union with God, and His Son, DO live.

Wordkeeper said:

Well eternal life is not immortality. Everybody lives forever, some in Hell, others in Heaven.

Eternal life is knowing God, just like Joseph knew Mary. Union. Resulting in a purposeful life, to subdue Creation.

John 17:3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

......
John 17"20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am inYou. May they also be in Us, so that the worldmay believe that You sent Me.

Judaism calls eternal life Chayei Olam, a type of life that is lived in Olam Haba, the world to come. They contrast this with Chayei Sha' ah, fleeting life, pointless life. Camus could tell us a few things about THAT...

Eternal refers to substance, not time. Eternal living is substantial living.

Eternal Life - Chayei Olam

Quote
An interesting insight comes from how the term "eternal life", chayei olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) was understood by Jews in Jesus' time.1 While the phrase often had our understanding of life after death, chayei olam often had a different emphasis, when it wascontrasted with "chayei sha'ah" (fleeting life). Chayei sha'ah, fleeting life, is living a life that is only concerned about everyday things - working, making money, eating, and sleeping. Chayei olam, "lasting life" or "a life of eternity" refers to living a life focused on matters of eternal importance.

​

Traditionally, Jewish people have considered the study of the Bible truly living out one's "eternal life." A story is told about a rabbi who spent years in study of the Scriptures, and then walked past farmers tilling their land. He remarked, "they have abandoned lasting life (chayei olam) and involve themselves instead with fleeting life (chayei sha'ah)." 2

Which those in union with God, and His Son, DO live.

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Do you include the Talmud as part of your scriptures?

From your linked article: "'In the Talmud, from the first few hundred years after Christ, there are several references to the rabbinic concept of Hayei Olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) - meaning eternal life.' & 'These terms are found written down first in the Talmud, which dates from around 500 AD.'"

ananda said:

Do you include the Talmud as part of your scriptures?

From your linked article: "'In the Talmud, from the first few hundred years after Christ, there are several references to the rabbinic concept of Hayei Olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) - meaning eternal life.' & 'These terms are found written down first in the Talmud, which dates from around 500 AD.'"

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The source material is the same. Talmud is commentary. Christianity went wrong, as prophesied. No reason corrective action shouldn't be taken.

Even the New Testament, which is not common with Judaism says eternal life is knowing God. It's a type of life, dealing with quality, not time.

Wordkeeper said:

The source material is the same. Talmud is commentary. Christianity went wrong, as prophesied. No reason corrective action shouldn't be taken.

Even the New Testament, which is not common with Judaism says eternal life is knowing God. It's a type of life, dealing with quality, not time.

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If your fundamental end-goal is to "know God", then how has the practice of your path enabled you to "know God" to a greater extent? Does the drive to "know God" underlie all your volitional activity in observable existence?

anonymous person said:

That is to say, what reasons, evidence, and arguments are there for the views you hold?

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Hi there! Nice to meet you!

Reasons: The Bible is my Source for spiritual reasoning, and science is my source for secular reasoning.

Evidence:
1. Martyrs -- see Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
2. Churches and other edifices, including Christian schools.
3. Iconography & statuary, including symbols, drawings, and artwork.
4. The Bible and other books written about our LORD, including tracts.
5. Songs, hymns and carols venerating Jesus Christ.
6. Holidays such as Christmas and Easter.
7. Debates, programs, cartoons, and specials on TV.
8. Time divided into BC/AD.
9. Mottos such as IN GOD WE TRUST, and ONE NATION UNDER GOD, and ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR.
10. Resistance by unbelievers who invest time and money to eradicate God from public view, including changing greetings such as MERRY CHRISTMAS to HAPPY HOLIDAYS and SEASONS GREETINGS.

Arguments:
My standards are as follows:
1. Bible says X, science says X = go with X
2. Bible says X, science says Y = go with X
3. Bible says Ø, science says Y = go with Y
4. Bible says Ø, science says Ø = speculate
Prime Directive: Under no circumstances is the Bible to be contradicted.