Signs in the sun and moon...

nonaeroterraqueous

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The signs mentioned in the Bible appear to be eclipses. It would be fundamentally impossible for both the sun and the moon to have an eclipse at the same time, but it would not be much of a sign for them to happen individually. I'm more in favor of them happening at the same time, because the alternative would be that they have already happened many times in the past and mean nothing.
 
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BABerean2

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Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?

How many times in the history of the universe will the sun turn black, and the stars fall to the earth?
(Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17)

.
 
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dqhall

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How many times in the history of the universe will the sun turn black, and the stars fall to the earth?
(Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17)

.
There are meteorites called falling stars. I have seen them many times. There have been eclipses and will be eclipses. Sometimes the moon was turned blood read during an eclipse. Are these not signs of the last day?
 
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eleos1954

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How many times in the history of the universe will the sun turn black, and the stars fall to the earth?
(Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17)

.

The verses referenced are in regard to the 2nd coming of Jesus, so in that context 1 time.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?
I will attempt to share ( at the risk of being misunderstood) what I think.
1.Our Father created the universe and He set it into motion.
Ecc.1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

2. The Bible does teach that there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecc. 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

So, imho, He is clearly saying the events tha are happening now have been before and events to come are a repeat of event that happened in the past. I hope this helps.
 
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BABerean2

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There are meteorites called falling stars. I have seen them many times. There have been eclipses and will be eclipses. Sometimes the moon was turned blood read during an eclipse. Are these not signs of the last day?

You are talking about normal naturalistic phenomena.
Those of us who have an interest in astronomy have witnessed these events in the past.

The Bible texts under consideration are speaking of something we have never seen.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

In the Book of Revelation "stars" are used as a symbol of the angels.

.
 
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Dave L

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Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?
I think most of the distress in the heavens surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD is symbolism for God's judgement. And not literal. Notice the same prophetic terminology in God's judgement on Babylon Isaiah 13:1–22. But the universe will explode one of these days in fire as God replaces it with the New Heavens and Earth 2 Peter 3:10–13. So I think we will see signs and wonders in the heavens as the last day closes in.
 
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iamlamad

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The verses referenced are in regard to the 2nd coming of Jesus, so in that context 1 time.
So you are saying that the signs at the 6th seal are the very same sign, seen at the same time, as the sign in matthew 24?
 
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eleos1954

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So you are saying that the signs at the 6th seal are the very same sign, seen at the same time, as the sign in matthew 24?

THE SIXTH SEAL IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17
 
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peterlindner

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Does the bible teach us of signs in the sun and moon happening ONCE for ONE EVENT?
Or perhaps happening TWICE (and each one different) for TWO events?

What do you think?
The solar and lunar calendar come together for signs. It was "life and death" important for the priest to know the right time to go into the holy of holies once a year. If he got it wrong it meant death. God commanded man's presence at 3 feasts including the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end. If this feast is to be a Fall feast then the new moon must come after ~Sept.22. The current Hebrew calendar is not correctly proclaiming the time. It is off by a "sheni". It's off like Hezekiah's and Solomon's time (a month late). It's off by an epaph (10 omers)+10 loaves+10 cheeses.

In the account of David and Goliath there are many parallels to the stars and constellations. There is the bear and lion (dipper and regulus), Dog and sticks (Orion), and King's daughter. David brings 10 omer, 10 loaves, and 10 cheeses (daily provision=30); this is symbolic of the extra month wait. David takes off the Head (teshuvah) of the year and puts it in his tent (tabernacle).

There's too much truth in this so it will be banned shortly.
 
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iamlamad

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THE SIXTH SEAL IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17
You did not answer the question!
 
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iamlamad

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The solar and lunar calendar come together for signs. It was "life and death" important for the priest to know the right time to go into the holy of holies once a year. If he got it wrong it meant death. God commanded man's presence at 3 feasts including the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end. If this feast is to be a Fall feast then the new moon must come after ~Sept.22. The current Hebrew calendar is not correctly proclaiming the time. It is off by a "sheni". It's off like Hezekiah's and Solomon's time (a month late). It's off by an epaph (10 omers)+10 loaves+10 cheeses.

In the account of David and Goliath there are many parallels to the stars and constellations. There is the bear and lion (dipper and regulus), Dog and sticks (Orion), and King's daughter. David brings 10 omer, 10 loaves, and 10 cheeses (daily provision=30); this is symbolic of the extra month wait. David takes off the Head (teshuvah) of the year and puts it in his tent (tabernacle).

There's too much truth in this so it will be banned shortly.
Ha ha! How funny! Maybe not.
 
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eleos1954

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You did not answer the question!

Yes I did, in my original reply post, His 2nd coming .... is His 2nd coming ... and His 2nd coming happens ONE time.

"The verses referenced are in regard to the 2nd coming of Jesus, so in that context 1 time"

Both verses refer to the same event ... His 2nd coming
 
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iamlamad

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Yes I did, in my original reply post, His 2nd coming .... is His 2nd coming ... and His 2nd coming happens ONE time.

"The verses referenced are in regard to the 2nd coming of Jesus, so in that context 1 time"

Both verses refer to the same event ... His 2nd coming
My question was: So you are saying that the signs at the 6th seal are the very same sign, seen at the same time, as the sign in matthew 24?

All you did was quote the 6th seal signs. Were you hinting that they are the same sign that will come at the same time: ONE event?

Yes, literally his second coming will be a single coming: TO THE AIR. But He will leave and return to heaven. Then His THIRD coming, again only once, will be when He touches down, as shown in Rev. 19. Therefore, the SIGNS will be seen twice more, first as the sign of the DAY OF THE LORD, (blood red moon) and then again 7 years later as the sign for His coming: Moon darkened.
 
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iamlamad

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Joel 2:31 Darkness: Strong’s: (chôshek), kho-shek'; from H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

(A verb showing action - something not normal – unusual. Standing outside at night, one would expect a certain amount of light – but this is all the light taken away!)

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Gen 1:2 (chôshek) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness H2822 was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

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Gen 1:4 (chôshek) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. H2822

[can be summarized as “deprived of light”, or that the “light is taken”. In other words, it is the near total absence of light. (Like standing deep in a coal mine)]

Joel 2:10 Dark: Strong’s: קָדַר qâdar, kaw-dar'; a primitive root; to be ashy, i.e. dark-colored; by implication, to mourn (in sackcloth or sordid garments):—be black(-ish), be (make) dark(-en), × heavily, (cause to) mourn. (Masculine noun describing a normal condition)

1Ki 18:45 (qâdar) And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black H6937 with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.

Joe 3:15 (qâdar) The sun and the moon shall be darkened, H6937 and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Jer 4:28 (qâdar) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: H6937 because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

summarized as “darkness, as opposed to black”, or “blackness, vs. black”. In other words, it is what we would commonly describe as “the dark of night” as opposed to the “the absence of all light” as if standing in a coal mine.

Consider Joel 2: same writer, same letter - why would he use two different words for the condition of darkness in the two different verses? One verse, 31 comes before THE DAY, but verse 10, it seems, is IN the day. And verse 10 uses the same word he used in chapter 3, a time of Jesus’ coming.

It seems Joel was seeing TWO DIFFERENT types of darkness. In one, the sky is totally dark – not even star light, so the absence of light – abnormal.

In Matthew and Mark, the same Greek word is used for darkness. skotizó: to darken It is a verb.

Strong’s: “to cover with darkness, to darken; passive, to be covered with darkness, be darkened”: properly, of the heavenly bodies, as deprived of light

We see then that Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 appear to be detailing the same type of event when it comes to the occurrence in the sun. All four scriptures tell us that the light of the sun will be taken from the earth when this event comes to pass. This is very similar to ordinary nightfall. All these use a verb form to describe it.

Now Rev. 6:12-13

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

black as sackcloth of hair What does this mean?

Vine’s for sackcloth: “made from the hair of the black goat of Cilicia;” “a warm material woven from goat’s or camel’s hair,” and hence of a dark color,” “ also for making sacks,”

Bible Dictionary: “Sackcloth (pv sak aeKKos saccys) was a coarse woven materials from goats and camels hair and dark of a color Hence: as we see from Rev 6:19 are ‘Became the black as sackcloth of hair…’”

Is there any light in “black as sackcloth of hair?” Could it describe the absence of light. Imagine looking at the sun and actually being ABLE to look at it, because it was putting out NO light at all. John is not bringing sackcloth to a new level of black, but rather he is setting the perception of the sun to what people of that day would see in black sackcloth – no light.

In fact, if the sun was putting out no light, it would probably not even be visible. In such a case, the moon should not be visible either – but the moon appears blood red – so we have a very unusual condition in both the sun and the moon.
 
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iamlamad

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The MOON:

How can anyone equate the moon “not giving her light” with a blood moon? To know a blood moon is to SEE a blood moon. We all SHOULD know that if the moon is not giving (reflecting) her light, she is invisible! Clearly these two terms cannot be equated!

For Joel 2:10 and 3:15, the word qā·ḏā·rū used - the exact same word used for the signs in the sun. So Joel used the very same word for both the sun and the moon. And according to Joel, it would be looking at both at the same time. Remember, this is a noun describing a normal condition. (At the right time of day, as the sun is setting, the moon could be visible- if at the right time of the month.) For Joel’s and Matthew’s verses, perhaps like a cloudy night where the light is just lessoned - perhaps the time of month where the moon is not seen. This is not an active verb description, where perhaps an outside force is causing it. One could say, “the absence of most light” – like a dark night: still a tiny bit of light.

Matthew says, “the moon will not give her light.” We know the light of the moon is sunlight reflected. It appears then that the sunlight is not hitting the moon to be reflected. We could say “the dark of night” or the night with no moonlight. This kind of a night comes every month.

Another interesting point: in the Byzantine Majority text, The Alexandrian text, and the Hort and Wescott text, the word “Hole” [olh] in including, meaning the moon WHOLE: it is speaking of a full moon. It is most likely speaking of a lunar eclipse. In Joel, 2:10 and Joel 3, [wə·yā·rê·aḥ] he used a slightly different form of the Hebrew word for moon than he used in 2:31 [wə·hay·yā·rê·aḥ]. They both mean the same moon that we see. But why the difference? Could one add the meaning of a full moon? I don’t know. The point? of the 7 feasts of the Jews, 6 of them include a full moon! There are three distinct phases of the moon in the bible: the new moon, when the first tiny bit of light is reflected and can be visible seen; then “the moon” - all phases up to the full, and finally the full moon.

Note that it was the sliver of a moon that was the time keeper. They had to have two witnesses to verify they saw a tiny bit of light from the moon. Keep in mind, for two or three days before that, NO LIGHT from the moon - a normal occurrence. Remember, a moon “not giving her light” cannot possibly be a blood moon.

Next, there is a difference between falling stars and stars failing to give light.

The start of the seven year tribulation

The sun turned to darkness Joel 2:30, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12

The turned to blood Joel 2:30, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12

The stars fall to earth Revelation 6:13

The end of the seven year tribulation

The sun and moon go dark Joel 2:10*, 3:15, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24

The stars withdraw their shining Joel 2:10*, 3:15

The stars fall from heaven Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24

Note: there is a difference in stars falling to earth and stars falling from heaven.

We know a real star could not fall to earth. Remember, anything that glows in the night sky we tend to call a “star” – even a tiny meteorite that is falling into earth’s atmosphere.

Conclusion: when the sun turns dark, and the moon into blood, they are not necessarily seen at the same time. It could be months in between. But when both the sun and moon are darkened, it is seeing both at the same time. When “the sun turns dark” it is more like something obstructing it – blocking the rays: again it seems more like an eclipse. An total eclipse of the sun comes ONLY with a dark moon. If a sliver of moon is showing, then it will not be a total eclipse.

Note VERY carefully: when a total solar eciplse takes place: “The sun is darkened” even if but for a short period of time. “The moon is darkened” maybe for three days. Most stars are not visible – it is day time – even though it is dark. On clear days there will always be star light – even the dimmist stars can be seen if away from city lights. It may then appear darker during a solar eclipse than on a normal night. How can the sun “turn into” darkness? At an eclipse.

The moon in ANY phase cannot cause the stars to darken so they cannot be seen. But a total eclipse of the sun will make stars difficult to see, because it is day, not night: “stars shall not give their light” and “withdraw their shining.”

Things to ponder: the signs in the sun and moon as shown in Joel 2:10 and Joel 3 are signs that will happen at the same time, or be seen at the same time.

NOT so of the sign in Joel 2:31.

Given the evidence, it seems very clear that God is telling us of TWO different signs for TWO different purposes. We have Joel 2:31 with the 6th seal events as one level of darkness, using a verb, while Joel 2:10 and Joel 3, along with the gospel versions, showing a normal night kind of darkness.

My conclusion then is that Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 bookend the END of the 70th week, while Joel 2:31 and the 6th seal bookend the BEGINNING of the 70th week.

What we can prove by scripture:

At the start of the “tribulation” or 70th week:

Solar eclipse – blood moon – meteor shower (Falling stars falling to the earth) NOT at the same time.

AFTER the tribulation:

Total or annular solar eclipse (stars dark) Falling stars

Sun and moon go dark: same time

Joel 210, 3:15, Matthew 24, Mark 13:24

Stars withdraw their shining: Joel 2:10 and 3:15.

Stars fall from heaven: Matthew 24:29, Mark 13.24

In March 20, 2015, the solar eclipse and last blood moon were both visible from Israel. There was a meteor shower same year from Oct to Nov.

Conclusion: we have all three elements of Revelation 6:12-13 – the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood and the stars falling – in that order. In 2015 - in the space of 19 days – all on feast days of Israel. Coincidence? Hardly!

I look for the signing of the treaty soon, right after the rapture. However, it could be the Lord is just giving a warning, and there will be a repeat soon in the future.
 
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iamlamad

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Conclusion: these signs are NOT the same: the signs of Joel 2:31 and Rev. 6 are the same, and the signs of Matthew 24 and Joel 2:10 and Joel 3 are the same.

One sign - with a blood moon - will be the sign of the Day of the Lord.
The other sign - with sun and moon darkened - will be the sign of His coming.

These signs will be seen over 7 years apart.
 
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eleos1954

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My question was: So you are saying that the signs at the 6th seal are the very same sign, seen at the same time, as the sign in matthew 24?

All you did was quote the 6th seal signs. Were you hinting that they are the same sign that will come at the same time: ONE event?

Yes, literally his second coming will be a single coming: TO THE AIR. But He will leave and return to heaven. Then His THIRD coming, again only once, will be when He touches down, as shown in Rev. 19. Therefore, the SIGNS will be seen twice more, first as the sign of the DAY OF THE LORD, (blood red moon) and then again 7 years later as the sign for His coming: Moon darkened.

Both verses are talking about the same event. One event, His 2nd coming. Both verses are referring to the same event. Yes, both verses are talking about the very same sign. And that is when He takes all the saved to heaven with Him.

The Saviour’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ’s coming is near. The time of that event has not been revealed, and therefore we are to be ready at all times. (Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-6; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; Rev. 1:7; 14:14-20; 19:11-21.)

Jesus is going to descend from the skies as visibly, as tangibly, as He ascended (see Acts 1:11). Revelation says, "Every eye will see him" (1:7). Paul tells us "the Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7). And Peter says, "The heavens will disappear with a roar" and the earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints (the saved) in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. (Commonly referred to as the Great White Throne judgement.) The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

You believe otherwise, that's fine. I agree to disagree.

God Bless.
 
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iamlamad

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Both verses are talking about the same event. One event, His 2nd coming. Both verses are referring to the same event. Yes, both verses are talking about the very same sign. And that is when He takes all the saved to heaven with Him.

The Saviour’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ’s coming is near. The time of that event has not been revealed, and therefore we are to be ready at all times. (Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 5:1-6; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; Rev. 1:7; 14:14-20; 19:11-21.)

Jesus is going to descend from the skies as visibly, as tangibly, as He ascended (see Acts 1:11). Revelation says, "Every eye will see him" (1:7). Paul tells us "the Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7). And Peter says, "The heavens will disappear with a roar" and the earth will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints (the saved) in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. (Commonly referred to as the Great White Throne judgement.) The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

You believe otherwise, that's fine. I agree to disagree.

God Bless.

When we do a close study, and dig into the Hebrew we find that Joel 2:10 and Joel 3 use a Hebrew word for darkness - a word that just means a normal darkness. Not some special kind of Darkness. The Greek for the Matthew 24 verse shows us the same thing.
But the Hebrew word used in Joel 2:31 and at the Greek word at 6th seal: They are different hebrew and Greek words with different meanings: that light is taken away or removed to leave an abnormal darkness - a darkness like is seldom seen - NOT normal. Don't take my word for it, research it yourself: Joel uses a different word for "darkness" in Joel 2:31 versus in Joel 2:10 and Joel 3. And the New Testament uses a different Greek word for the sun turning dark in Matthew 24 verus the sun appearing black at the 6th seal.

Then there is the moon. How would ANYONE know of the moon is red unless they see it? Therefore the 6th seal moon is a seen moon - and probably a lunar eclipse.

On the other hand, the darkened moon of Matthew 24 is a moon that cannot be seen. NO sunlight reflecting.

A careful research shows us these two signs are DIFFERENT and will come at DIFFERENT TIMES and for DIFFERENT Purposes. But you ill not believe this until you see it. Your mind is made up.

You still have not explained how a Jesus hidden in a cloud is seen by everyone. I can only hope that when He comes pretrib, you are expecting Him, for it you are not, you will be left behind.
 
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