Limited atonement destroyed

FineLinen

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All Does Not Mean All

1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all mankind to be saved.

plan b= God will have some of mankind to be saved.

2) 1Tim 2:4 God wills all to come to the knowledge of truth.

plan b= God wills some to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time.

plan b= Salvation of some is testified in due time.

4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all.

plan b= Jesus came to save some.

5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will.

plan b= God works some after the counsel of His will.

6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world.

plan b= Jesus is the Savior of some of the world.

7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world.

plan b= Jesus is Savior of very few.

8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself.

plan b= Jesus will draw a few to Himself.

9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created.

plan b= By Him were some created.

10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned.

plan b= In Adam some are condemned.

11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live.

plan b= In Adam some die, in Christ some live.
Lol that is about the size of it brother. its all about the plan B God. lol

Dear Pneuma: I have only begun! The plan b alternate, should be the minus plan b version for unbelieving believers.

The next segments are coming on this very link for all that think the radical "pas" does not mean all.
 
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Pneuma3

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Ok you won’t answer the question which completely refutes UR.

I have answered it, now you answer mine.

Eph:2:11-18

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



Can the elect ever be said to be without Christ?

Be aliens from the commonwealth of Israel?

strangers from the covenants of promise?

having no hope?

without God in the world?



This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.
 
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Loren T.

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Well he’s right and very consistent.
What is consistent about believing one way and acting another? Tim keller is the same way. 90 percent of the time they teach like armininans, but are not. To be consistent, a Calvinist can never say God allows sin, he must say God causes sin, but they won't state the obvious, they dance around it.
 
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redleghunter

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All Does Not Mean All

1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all mankind to be saved.

plan b= God will have some of mankind to be saved.

2) 1Tim 2:4 God wills all to come to the knowledge of truth.

plan b= God wills some to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time.

plan b= Salvation of some is testified in due time.

4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all.

plan b= Jesus came to save some.

5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will.

plan b= God works some after the counsel of His will.

6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world.

plan b= Jesus is the Savior of some of the world.

7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world.

plan b= Jesus is Savior of very few.

8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself.

plan b= Jesus will draw a few to Himself.

9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created.

plan b= By Him were some created.

10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned.

plan b= In Adam some are condemned.

11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live.

plan b= In Adam some die, in Christ some live.
Obviously not everyone:

Revelation 22:15; 1 Corinthians 6:9–10; Galatians 5:19–21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 12:14

Revelation 22:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Timothy 1:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hebrews 12:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
 
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redleghunter

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Well some of still do have a life outside the net.

And to answer your questions, why is it you believe it is everyone bows and confesses all at the same time? Because that is what your questions are asking.

You have yet to learn everyone in their own order.


Because the text says every. If not at the same time it would be some.
 
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redleghunter

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I have no problem with election red, the problem is you think only the elect are save, thus you have no understanding of the purpose of election.

Read my post many memebered body of Christ to see the purpose of the election.
The purpose of election is made clear in Ephesians chapter 1 and Romans 8.

If all are eventually saved then there is no need for election.
 
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redleghunter

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I have answered it, now you answer mine.
Context matters.

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.



26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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redleghunter

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What is consistent about believing one way and acting another? Tim keller is the same way. 90 percent of the time they teach like armininans, but are not. To be consistent, a Calvinist can never say God allows sin, he must say God causes sin, but they won't state the obvious, they dance around it.
A false dichotomy. Mankind sins.

St James said God does not tempt us.

James 1:13
 
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Pneuma3

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What is consistent about believing one way and acting another? Tim keller is the same way. 90 percent of the time they teach like armininans, but are not. To be consistent, a Calvinist can never say God allows sin, he must say God causes sin, but they won't state the obvious, they dance around it.

kind of like when ECT or annihilation say Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world then proceed to tell everyone he is not.
 
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Pneuma3

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Because the text says every. If not at the same time it would be some.
nonsense. everyone in there own order. Have you not bowed the Knee and confessed Jesus Christ is Lord? does that mean everyone else had to do it at the same time as you or they simply cannot be saved? think about it.
 
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Pneuma3

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The purpose of election is made clear in Ephesians chapter 1 and Romans 8.

If all are eventually saved then there is no need for election.
that like like there is no need for Jesus the HEAD of the body of Christ.

It is obvious to me you have no understanding of the firsfruit being the promise of the whole harvest.
 
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Pneuma3

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Context matters.

Romans 8: NASB
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.



26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes context matters so try reading it in context. I never even mentioned Ro.

Here is what you have failed to address now for the 3rd time.

Eph:2:11-18

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



Can the elect ever be said to be without Christ?

Be aliens from the commonwealth of Israel?

strangers from the covenants of promise?

having no hope?

without God in the world?



This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.
 
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FineLinen

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Obviously not everyone:

Dear Red: Obviously all does not mean all. Obviously Pas is not the radical all.

Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.

plan b = Some tongues shall confess Jesus is Lord.

Rom. 11:26 All Israel will be saved.

plan b= Some of Israel will be saved.

plan b =

Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all.

plan b= Restitution of some.

Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people.

plan b= Jesus will be joy to some people.

Heb 8:11,12 All will know God.

plan b= Some will know God.

Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all.

plan b= Grace has appeared to some.

1 Tim. 4.10 God is the Savior of all mankind. Command this & teach this.

plan b= God is the Savior of some of mankind. Command this & teach this.

Red says

All people does not mean everyone. The only place where we see “everyone” or “whosoever” is in relationship with belief and faith. See John 3:15-20
 
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ClementofA

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If every knee shall bow means all will be saved, you should be able to point out “when” this happens in Redemptive history.

Does it happen at the Second coming? Revelation 19

Does it happen at the Great White Throne Judgement? Revelation 20

Every knee shall bow means every knee shall bow.

It happens after people are cast into the lake of fire.

It happens at the time when these Scriptures have all been fulfilled & everyone who ever lived has been saved, including Satan & all the demons:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

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redleghunter

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Obviously all does not mean all. Obviously Pas is not the radical all.
Yes it is quite obvious not all will be in Christ and not all will repent. That's the entire theme throughout the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.
 
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redleghunter

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Show me the verse.

It's the verse (or verses) you were referencing. I posted at least two of them in my post to you.

Now 2 questions for you: will all those drawn to Christ get saved? Will all those who come to God (or Christ) get saved? Yes or no?
 
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redleghunter

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It's the verse (or verses) you were referencing. And i posted at least two of them in my post to you.
No, the verse which shows salvation comes to the pits of the Lake of Fire.
 
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ClementofA

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No, the verse which shows salvation comes to the pits of the Lake of Fire.

I was responding to your reference to bowing.

Show me the verse.

It's the verse (or verses) you were referencing. I posted at least two of them in my post to you.

Now 2 questions for you: will all those drawn to Christ get saved? Will all those who come to God (or Christ) get saved? Yes or no?
 
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