Debunking Scientism - Tricks New Atheists Play (Part 6)

DogmaHunter

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Have you had the opportunity to interview the majority of people on this planet while they are on their deathbeds to see if they unswervingly hold to the childhood beliefs they had at, say, AGE 7? [YES or NO?]

No???? That's ok, though. I didn't think you'd be able to get around to it really.......................:dontcare:

I had the opportunity, just like I suspect you had too, to see polls of people's beliefs around the world poured into statistical demographics which clearly show that there is an extreme correlation between geographic location and culture/religion.

This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Texas will be christians.
This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Iran will be muslims.

And the reason this is the case, is because the vast majority of religious people stick to the religion they grew up in.

It's just how it is and I have no clue why any of you would try and cast doubt on that...
I mean, it seems to be extremely obvious.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You're picking very extreme examples. If you asked someone in France, Norway, or the U.S. East Coast, you would have a harder time of it.

Not really, actually.
I'ld have a harder time, if I would also have to guess atheists.


Take France.
I'll lead with "are you religious" and if the answer is "yes", then I'll assume christianity as the religion and in the vast majority of cases, I'ld be correct.

Off course, it's also easier in rather closed societies, like indeed SA and Texas. They aren't too fond of multi-cultural society.

If you go to big and multi-cultural cities like New York, Brussels, Paris,... Sure, it gets harder to assume religion purely by current geographic location.

The thing is though, those people would be immigrants.
Here's another hint. The populistic right today likes to scream about "islamisation of europe". I'll let you guess 3 times where those immigrants who are "importing" islam into Europe come from.

Hint: it's not china or canada.

And again, for these multi-cultural people, the same rule of previously applies.
I'll ask "where do you / your parents come from" - and most times, that country will be a give away of the religion he/she follows.
Or I could just ask "what's the religion of your parents" and the vast majority of the time, it will be the same religion has his/hers.

You need to factor in that large segments of the Western world are open and religiously pluralistic now before running with an argument like this.

Yes, as I just addressed.
And still I'ld be able to pretty accurately predict their religion by their ethnic background.

You can do it too. And you know it.

I don't understand why you wouldn't acknowledge this obvious point.
 
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Silmarien

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Not really, actually.
I'ld have a harder time, if I would also have to guess atheists.

Even if you don't want to account for atheists, you would certainly have to allow for the non-affiliated spiritualistic crowd. They are a new pagan paradigm.

I don't understand why you wouldn't acknowledge this obvious point.

Because:

1) Christianity has collapsed in the West. This has consequences for guessing who is what amongst non-fundamentalist Westerners.
2) Globally matters are complicated. Christianity has been growing in China and West Africa. Protestants are trying to grab Catholic Latin America.
3) Guess that an Arab is Muslim and you may end up with an Egyptian Copt. Same goes with grabbing someone from a Jewish community without realizing it.
4) Technology has revolutionized society, the world is interconnected, and the reasons people stayed in their birth religion in the past no longer apply in quite the same way.
5) It's as rude and essentialistic as some of the "reasons" Christians and other religious people give for why people are atheists. I mean, come on Dogma, you know you really just hate God. Stop denying it. We all know you're secretly a theist. :rolleyes:

(That was satire, in case it's not obvious.)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I had the opportunity, just like I suspect you had too, to see polls of people's beliefs around the world poured into statistical demographics which clearly show that there is an extreme correlation between geographic location and culture/religion.

This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Texas will be christians.
This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Iran will be muslims.

And the reason this is the case, is because the vast majority of religious people stick to the religion they grew up in.

It's just how it is and I have no clue why any of you would try and cast doubt on that...
I mean, it seems to be extremely obvious.

....but do they have IDENTICAL beliefs? The answer is 'no.' So, with that in mind, it means that you folks who are trying to wedge in this little piece into the matrix of your disbelief in association with the so-called O.T.F. are ................ i....g....n....o.....r.....i.....n.....g ......... a litany of details that are present in the full reality and scope of each human mind that resides in our collective existence. You can't escape this fact, but ignore it, you do! And I think atheistic thinkers tend to do this mainly because they think they should (arbitrarily) distill one essential descriptive aspect that may be common to any particular population and then (again, arbitrarily) they decide that this one essential descriptive aspect then, somehow, "is"the reigning, umbrella concept that decides the (again, arbitrarily) value judgment that they've also (arbitrarily) labeled as THE truth, when really it's just a median truth of sorts that isn't independent of every other consideration that is actually in the overall reality of human life and human religion.

I mean, good golly, man! One would think, by your logic, that you could rip my heart out of my chest in scientific fashion, hold it up in your little medically gloved hand, and say, "....yes, THIS, THIS is this man's heart!" At which point, I, lying on the table, if I were conscious, would then ask you, "Oh, is it, now?!"
 
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Moral Orel

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Even if you don't want to account for atheists, you would certainly have to allow for the non-affiliated spiritualistic crowd. They are a new pagan paradigm.
Just for fun...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'd technically be in your 9/10, but my childhood "Christianity" included divination, reincarnation, and... uh, lots and lots of dinosaurs (I was a militant anti-religious evolutionist). Does the fact that you grew up nominally Christian matter if you spent your time in Sunday School snickering about the apparent ridiculousness of the Old Testament stories? Because that's not all that rare in the post-Christian world.

It was a perfect storm that landed me in Christianity. If I'd had my way, I would be practicing Advaita Vedanta Hinduism instead.

I've adored dinosaurs ever since I was a little kid, and at that time they were a big part of my imagination. Ironically, if I remember right, on one Christmas around age 6 or 7, Santa gave me a children's bible story book. When I opened it, I kind of wondered where all of the dinosaurs disappeared to, and it has bothered me ever since. ^_^
 
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anonymous person

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I had the opportunity, just like I suspect you had too, to see polls of people's beliefs around the world poured into statistical demographics which clearly show that there is an extreme correlation between geographic location and culture/religion.

This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Texas will be christians.
This is why the vast majority of people you'll encounter in Iran will be muslims.

And the reason this is the case, is because the vast majority of religious people stick to the religion they grew up in.

It's just how it is and I have no clue why any of you would try and cast doubt on that...
I mean, it seems to be extremely obvious.

DogmaHunter, I think it’s more plausible that what you have said is true than false. It seems plausible to me to think that 51% or more of people adhere to the worldview of those who raised them.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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DogmaHunter, I think it’s more plausible that what you have said is true than false. It seems plausible to me to think that 51% or more of people adhere to the worldview of those who raised them.

Hi anonymous person! DogmaHunter might be surprised to know that I also agree with the general premise that many people start their cognitive lives within the auspices of the reigning religious paradigm of their geographic locale. But, then I'd go on to say that geography doesn't by any means necessitate epistemic destiny ... and it is upon the denial of this additional consideration that he seems to place all of his roulette chips. :cool:
 
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anonymous person

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Hi anonymous person! DogmaHunter might be surprised to know that I also agree with the general premise that many people start their cognitive lives within the auspices of the reigning religious paradigm of their geographic locale. But, then I'd go on to say that geography doesn't by any means necessitate epistemic destiny ... and it is upon the denial of this additional consideration that he seems to place all of his roulette chips. :cool:

I think St. Augustine’s conversion would furnish us with a disproof of this hypothesis, if indeed what you say is an accurate representation of DogmaHunter’s hypothesis. Let us allow him the opportunity to clarify, for surely DogmaHunter is aware that St. Augustine was a Manichean prior to conversion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think St. Augustine’s conversion would furnish us with a disproof of this hypothesis, if indeed what you say is an accurate representation of DogmaHunter’s hypothesis. Let us allow him the opportunity to clarify, for surely DogmaHunter is aware that St. Augustine was a Manichean prior to conversion.

...well, that would require that he is willing to actually 'expand' and make more complex his existing view of the world, and it seems to me he's preferring to keep things.......more simple. ;) But like you've said, he should speak for himself.
 
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zippy2006

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Let's just keep it simple: do you agree that the vast majority of people grow up to believe the religion they were taught by their parents? Yes or no.

As I see it, the problem is that your religious focus is arbitrary. Intellectual content of all kinds is highly influenced by things like geography, culture, and family tradition. Religion is just a subset. Why isolate it? The exact same arguments apply to atheism, secularism, liberalism, pluralism, etc.

Tell me the religion of your parents, and I'll tell you what your religion is.
And I dare say that more then 9 times out of 10, I'ld be correct.

Were your parents religious? None of my atheist or agnostic friends came from religious households. Maybe their parents' beliefs determined theirs. Maybe we are all deterministic drones. :eek:
 
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Silmarien

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I think St. Augustine’s conversion would furnish us with a disproof of this hypothesis, if indeed what you say is an accurate representation of DogmaHunter’s hypothesis. Let us allow him the opportunity to clarify, for surely DogmaHunter is aware that St. Augustine was a Manichean prior to conversion.

Ahh, but Augustine's mother was Christian! Doesn't matter if he flirted with Manicheaism and Neoplatonism, since he was programmed at birth to return to Christianity! (Wait, who is this Ambrose you're talking about...?)
 
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Moral Orel

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But, then I'd go on to say that geography doesn't by any means necessitate epistemic destiny
@DogmaHunter didn't say it does. But that won't stop you from claiming he did and then the rest of you all running with it and patting each other on the back for refuting a claim he never made, will it?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@DogmaHunter didn't say it does. But that won't stop you from claiming he did and then the rest of you all running with it and patting each other on the back for refuting a claim he never made, will it?

I know he didn't say that it in just those terms, Nicholas. But the overall impression to me is that he's implying there's some kind of ontological IS/OUGHT preference that comes by the mere fact that many people start, and often stay within, the orbit of their familial religious inculcation.

It also seems to me that you might be wanting to project upon us some quality of moral failure.....................when there's another fact that remains: DogmaHunter, as smart and apparently successful as he is, is the one who has hammered us time and time again, and implied that we Christians here are all just 'disjointed' in our thinking. This has nothing to do with patting each other on the back. And on my part, I won't turn from the fact that it's been DogmaHunter that has provided the lion's share of criticism where criticism has been brought to bear, and you might just consider the ratio of criticism that I've EVER personally attempted to place upon him in contrast to that which he's either placed on me or, collectively, upon my friends here at CF. Of course, I guess I can't expect too much from someone who uses a Tiamat type simulacra as an avatar, now can I?
 
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Moral Orel

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I know he didn't say that it in just those terms, Nicholas.
No, he didn't say that at all. He talked about likelihoods, you're pretending he was talking about certainties by using the word "necessitate".

It also seems to me that you might be wanting to project upon us some quality of moral failure.....................when there's another fact that remains: DogmaHunter, as smart and apparently successful as he is, is the one who has hammered us time and time again, and implied that we Christians here are all just 'disjointed' in our thinking. This has nothing to do with patting each other on the back. And on my part, I won't turn from the fact that it's been DogmaHunter that has provided the lion's share of criticism where criticism has been brought to bear, and you might just consider the ratio of criticism that I've EVER personally attempted to place upon him in contrast to that which he's either placed on me or, collectively, upon my friends here at CF. Of course, I guess I can't expect too much from someone who uses a Tiamat type simulacra as an avatar, now can I?
Criticize what he said all you want. Heck, criticize him if you want to. Be snippy or even downright derogatory if you want to. I don't care. A conversation was building there on something that no one claimed and I found that ridiculous, so I butted in where I wasn't invited.
 
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Silmarien

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No, he didn't say that at all. He talked about likelihoods, you're pretending he was talking about certainties by using the word "necessitate".

Did you see how this topic came up in the first place? An atheist did in fact insinuate that @2PhiloVoid was only Christian because of growing up in a Christian country, and that chances were, if he had grown up elsewhere, he would be a different religion. If Dogma wished to distance himself from those initial comments, he should have done so explicitly. He did not, and so here we are, extrapolating from all the other comments he's made over the years. Remarks don't exist in a void.

For an example in the opposite direction, take a look at this theory that people become atheists because of bad father relationships. I have no idea if it actually plays out like that in the general public, but even if it does, it would be completely inappropriate for a theist to ask an atheist about their relationship with their father and then just point to the statistics over and over again. Even without drawing an explicit causal relationship, I cannot imagine anyone failing to see the insinuation.

Sorry, but this is offensive and unacceptable in both directions. We should treat each other like people, not statistics. And we should be particularly careful assuming that the color of someone's skin tells us what they believe, because then we've just moved straight into racial stereotyping.
 
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zippy2006

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A conversation was building there on something that no one claimed and I found that ridiculous, so I butted in where I wasn't invited.

I actually find your comment a little interesting because I did read the history before commenting and I didn't find an explicitly anti-religious conclusion being drawn, at least by Dogma Hunter. So to some extent you're correct. That's why I focused on the "Why are you isolating religion?" angle more than anything else.

But why not cut to the chase? What was his point, in your opinion? Why isolate religion on this score? (Silmarien covered the context and history too well for me to repeat it.)

The larger problem is that Dogma Hunter has consistently argued in the past that to compare belief to unbelief is a category error, as it's comparing apples to oranges. Given that particular history I find the focus on religion highly suspect. In fact he is perfectly likely to respond in a way that completely confirms the assumption behind the theistic replies. You've sort of rolled out the red carpet for him, so I'm curious to see him walk it. :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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@DogmaHunter didn't say it does. But that won't stop you from claiming he did and then the rest of you all running with it and patting each other on the back for refuting a claim he never made, will it?

Nicholas, what does the statement "...DogmaHunter might be surprised to know that I also agree with the general premise that many people start their cognitive lives within the auspices of the reigning religious paradigm of their geographic locale...." mean to you?

And what does "...But, then I'd go on to say..." mean to you, particularly as it comes directly after the statement which I made above when I spoke with @anonymous person? I mean, c'mon! I know that I can make typos. And I know that I sometimes struggle with getting the syntax just right when writing my sentences, but in this case I'm not seeing that my second statement infers that DogmaHunter was making any "certain" claims. In fact, I gave my second statement in order to emphasize the counterpoint that I already made earlier in this thread wherein I said we shouldn't pander to the kind of thinking that arbitrarily distills various generalizations and thereby ignore countless other connected factors inherent to the overall social reality that is involved in the religious upbringing of any one person.

My statements weren't made to hee-and-haw among friends here, nor were they made to cast aspersions upon DogmaHunter's character. Again, as I've said before, I think he's a smart guy and, like you, I imagine that off-line, all-in-all, he's a basically good guy. But I do think he puts too much weight and emphasis on the "we basically believe as we're taught to do as children" argument. It's just too simple.
 
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Moral Orel

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Did you see how this topic came up in the first place? An atheist did in fact insinuate that @2PhiloVoid was only Christian because of growing up in a Christian country, and that chances were, if he had grown up elsewhere, he would be a different religion. If Dogma wished to distance himself from those initial comments, he should have done so explicitly. He did not, and so here we are, extrapolating from all the other comments he's made over the years. Remarks don't exist in a void.
"Chances are" is the key phrase here. You jump from "only" to "chances are" in the span of one sentence.

Sorry, but this is offensive and unacceptable in both directions. We should treat each other like people, not statistics. And we should be particularly careful assuming that the color of someone's skin tells us what they believe, because then we've just moved straight into racial stereotyping.
LOL! I butted in to point out a straw man, and now you're attacking my point by shifting to skin color? Unbelievable.

And what does "...But, then I'd go on to say..." mean to you, particularly as it comes directly after the statement which I made above when I spoke with @anonymous person? I mean, c'mon! I know that I can make typos. And I know that I sometimes struggle with getting the syntax just right when writing my sentences, but in this case I'm not seeing that my second statement infers that DogmaHunter was making any "certain" claims. In fact, I gave my second statement in order to emphasize the counterpoint that I already made earlier in this thread wherein I said we shouldn't pander to the kind of thinking that arbitrarily distills various generalizations and thereby ignore countless other connected factors in inherent to the overall social reality that is involved in the religious upbringing of any one person.
Yeah, "necessitate" means "it's certain". @anonymous person read it the same way, that's why he pointed out an individual person to debunk such a ridiculous claim. Of course, Dogma didn't make that claim, but it isn't stopping you, @Silmarien and AP from running with it.

If you all know that the actual claim is about odds and probabilities, then why should anyone care if you point out one person that converted from one faith to a different one? You don't disprove a probability with an anecdote, that's ridiculous.

If you actually want to know his point or what conclusions he draws from those statistics, then you're clearly asking the wrong questions.
 
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