Limited atonement destroyed
- Thread starter ClementofA
- Start date
Dear stubborn Red: You my friend need radical adjustment; unfortunately that Dept. is not in my scope!
Rev. 5.13= -Robertson N.T. Word Pictures-
Every created thing (παν κτισμα — pān ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (κτισις — ktisis) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
Saying (λεγοντας — legontas). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have λεγοντα — legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with παντα— panta) present active participle of λεγω — legō to say.
And to the Lamb (και τωι αρνιωι — kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Revelation 4:11and the addition of το κρατος — to kratos (active power) in place of ισχυς — ischus (reserve of strength) in Revelation 5:12.
Upvote
0
- Mar 18, 2014
- 38,116
- 34,054
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Perhaps you don’t understand by what I mean by “when does this happen?”
In the Eschaton at what point does this mass kneeling and proclaiming happen?
At the Second Coming of Christ with His saints at the great winepress of God's wrath? After everyone with the mark of the beast is dead? Or after the 1000 years at the Great White Throne Judgement?
Upvote
0
Dear stubborn Red: Perhaps you know not what radical adjustment means? Hopefully our God will accomplish it in the nasty now & now or in the ages to come, but rest assured it shall surely happen!
The large ego that pervades some of those "elect", is the foundation for radical adjustment. God is the Saviour of all mankind, with that wee word "especially/malista". He is not the Saviour of ONLY/monon those who believe/trust IN Him; He is the Saviour of all mankind. Preach this & teach this.
The large ego that pervades some of those "elect", is the foundation for radical adjustment. God is the Saviour of all mankind, with that wee word "especially/malista". He is not the Saviour of ONLY/monon those who believe/trust IN Him; He is the Saviour of all mankind. Preach this & teach this.
Upvote
0
- Mar 18, 2014
- 38,116
- 34,054
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Yeah I noticed your flames but am big enough to see past them as you refuse to answer a very simple question.
If every knee shall bow means all will be saved, you should be able to point out “when” this happens in Redemptive history.
Does it happen at the Second coming? Revelation 19
Does it happen at the Great White Throne Judgement? Revelation 20
You have quoted Revelation so I know you know the references. And I think I have a pretty good idea why you won’t answer the question. And why others of UR are not helping you out.
Upvote
0
- Jul 10, 2016
- 5,256
- 8,174
- 41
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
I don't know what limited atonement is but I know that parables are being twisted to explain it.
The parable of the virgins refers to those who accepted God but the world and themselves still meant more to them.
Instead of waiting faithfully for the bridegroom they served themselves expecting the bridegroom to just accept them anyway, rather than wanting to be dutiful and to please him.
It is akin to turning up at the judgement with some idea of God but having not done anything with it. Thinking Jesus will save you but not having acted in faith, continuing in the ways of the world, not speaking to Him and obeying Him. Rather like one the Lord says to follow me said the person say yes and kept his hand on the plough (not quoting the passage here, I know it is said wrongly, that was just a picture what came to mind, someone saying the would come and just carried on doing their own thing). Like the seed that was dropped but never grew. Like the man who buried his talent. Like the trees threatened to be cut out in Romans 11.
The parable of the virgins refers to those who accepted God but the world and themselves still meant more to them.
Instead of waiting faithfully for the bridegroom they served themselves expecting the bridegroom to just accept them anyway, rather than wanting to be dutiful and to please him.
It is akin to turning up at the judgement with some idea of God but having not done anything with it. Thinking Jesus will save you but not having acted in faith, continuing in the ways of the world, not speaking to Him and obeying Him. Rather like one the Lord says to follow me said the person say yes and kept his hand on the plough (not quoting the passage here, I know it is said wrongly, that was just a picture what came to mind, someone saying the would come and just carried on doing their own thing). Like the seed that was dropped but never grew. Like the man who buried his talent. Like the trees threatened to be cut out in Romans 11.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Dear Red: Your questions are just too difficult to answer even with help from others!
Our God is a consuming Fire
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....
"Life"....Isa. 4:5
"Purification"....Matt. 3:3
"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27
"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10
And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.
And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.
Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.
Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being
And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.
Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.
When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)
Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).
The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.
Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome
It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.
So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words. And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).
Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?
Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."
Fire Is The Portion Of All
These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.
The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."
When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--
"Behold, I make all things new."
-Christ Triumphant-
Upvote
0
- Jun 25, 2018
- 9,357
- 8,758
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Why would anyone "preach" a lie?
Jesus Himself said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me." JOHN 14:6
What I am noticing is that your choice of words is terribly odd for a simple discussion.
Calling RLH stubborn, saying he needs a "radical adjustment", saying the elect have an "ego".. can you not deal with others in discussion?
This is who the elect is:
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."
The elect is everyone who comes to Jesus from this passage.
Elsewhere it's everyone who believes in their heart in the life, death and resurrection of the Messiah and declares His Lordship.
So, we can put those two passages together and declare that's not really an elite group to accuse of an ego. The elect is simply anyone who approaches Jesus in faith and belief, in truth. This is not some kind of closed off group unless your upset that demons and unbelievers can't join the party.
My question would be why someone, anyone, who doesn't even like God and has no desire to develop a relationship with Him in this life, would want to spend all of eternity worshipping Him in Heaven?
Because I can promise you if you don't want to worship God now you wont like heaven even a tiny bit...
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Dear Hazel: The fact is we all are in need of radical adjustment in Christ Jesus. The process beings with being born anew & progresses by stages of experience into various dimensions of union & communion in Him.
For those individuals, (the vast majority), who are not grasped by Him in this wonderful experience, the great need extends to the ages to come when the ONE who creates all things new does exactly that!
The many dimensions of His Kingdom has one thing as the foundation: new beings changed & transformed by the Author.
From Him the ta panta comes, through Him the ta panta exists, and in Him the ta panta ends..
ta panta= the all
Not only panta, but ta preceeding it!
Upvote
0
My friend: Would you like to tell us what the next verse of the following is?
1 Timothy 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Tim. 4:11=
1 Timothy 4:11 - Command and teach these things.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Loren T.
Well-Known Member
- Jun 26, 2018
- 1,003
- 396
- 56
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
John Piper is a fine example. He writes a book called "Don't waste your life." while his theology teaches that every moment of your life is predestined by God to be whatever it is. When asked how he fits these two together, he says he's Christian first, then reformed. Which, to me, sounds like saying, I only claim to believe this theology, I don't live it.
Upvote
0
Dear Red: If you were to ask 1001 questions it will be of no avail!
..."the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."
From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..
Please note: the all = ta panta
Not only "panta", but "ta" preceeding it.
Upvote
0
- Mar 18, 2014
- 38,116
- 34,054
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes keep asking this question even though I addressed it several times. All people does not mean everyone. The only place where we see “everyone” or “whosoever” is in relationship with belief and faith. See John 3:15-20
Pitting a few verses out of context does not make for a theology. Your theory must stand the test of the complete written revelation the Holy Scriptures. In them we find iron clad evidence that those who are in Christ will be saved. And this is appropriated by faith in the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Well some of still do have a life outside the net.
And to answer your questions, why is it you believe it is everyone bows and confesses all at the same time? Because that is what your questions are asking.
You have yet to learn everyone in their own order.
Upvote
0
I have no problem with election red, the problem is you think only the elect are save, thus you have no understanding of the purpose of election.
Read my post many memebered body of Christ to see the purpose of the election.
Upvote
0
All Does Not Mean All
1) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all mankind to be saved.
plan b= God will have some of mankind to be saved.
2) 1Tim 2:4 God wills all to come to the knowledge of truth.
plan b= God wills some to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time.
plan b= Salvation of some is testified in due time.
4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all.
plan b= Jesus came to save some.
5) Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will.
plan b= God works some after the counsel of His will.
6) Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world.
plan b= Jesus is the Savior of some of the world.
7) 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world.
plan b= Jesus is Savior of very few.
8) Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself.
plan b= Jesus will draw a few to Himself.
9) Col 1:16 By Him all were created.
plan b= By Him were some created.
10) Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned.
plan b= In Adam some are condemned.
11) 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live.
plan b= In Adam some die, in Christ some live.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
