Limited atonement destroyed

Pneuma3 said:

That is a misrepresentation, all will willingly and joyfully bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

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Show me the one verse which says people in the Lake of Fire will at some time willingly and joyfully bow and confess Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Pneuma3 said:

ALL in heaven and earth both the visible and invisible are reconciled by the blood.

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Show me the verse which states this.

redleghunter said:

By the Blood of the New Covenant (in Jesus Christ) which is the Grace of God through faith. Unbelievers meaning those who are not children of God but children of wrath reject Christ.

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and the blood is for ALL in heaven and earth both the visible and invisible are reconciled by the blood.

Calvinism seek to build up the wall of partition that Jesus broke down.

redleghunter said:

Show me the verse which states this.

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ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

redleghunter said:

For those who believe (Faith):

John 3: NASB
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

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And ALL shall believe for every knee shall bow and tongue confess......

redleghunter said:

Show me the one verse which says people in the Lake of Fire will at some time willingly and joyfully bow and confess Jesus Christ as their Savior.

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show me a verse that says they won't

Pneuma3 said:

funny how so many believe God will literally toss people into a lake of fire kicking and screaming, but have a problem understanding the power of love will drag people into His kingdom.

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I've posted nothing but love which God has offered in His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ truly God, truly human. I have also pointed out God's Justice for those who reject His Son and Christ in Whom He is well pleased.

Pneuma3 said:

And ALL shall believe for every knee shall bow and tongue confess......

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Yes they will confess He is King of kings and Lord of lords and will bend the knee because they will be on the losing side (see Revelation 19). It says they will confess Him as Lord which will be His title for Dominion. The Scriptures do not say they will confess Him as Savior. They can't because they have not been given a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone.

A good portion of Israelites saw the miracles of YHWH, saw the Power, saw His Presence on the mountain, yet still did not believe in the Promise. They professed He was their God, until fashioning their own with gold to make their bovine god. But they never trusted in Him nor His Promise.

Their bodies were scattered in the desert and some were swallowed up by the ground.

Pneuma3 said:

show me a verse that says they won't

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So your assertion comes from silence and you want me to prove a negative. I get this a lot on the assumption of Mary threads.

redleghunter said:

So your assertion comes from silence and you want me to prove a negative. I get this a lot on the assumption of Mary threads.

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I have already shown where scripture says every knee shall bow and tongue confess.....you simply do not believe that it means what it says.

redleghunter said:

Yes they will confess He is King of kings and Lord of lords and will bend the knee because they will be on the losing side (see Revelation 19). It says they will confess Him as Lord which will be His title for Dominion. The Scriptures do not say they will confess Him as Savior. They can't because they have not been given a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone.

A good portion of Israelites saw the miracles of YHWH, saw the Power, saw His Presence on the mountain, yet still did not believe in the Promise. They professed He was their God, until fashioning their own with gold to make their bovine god. But they never trusted in Him nor His Promise.

Their bodies were scattered in the desert and some were swallowed up by the ground.

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Let's take for instance the word bow, in the Greek the word is kampto, and it means to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration and it is only used for religious veneration in scripture.


Thus we can see that being made to bow as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is in complete error.


Now let's look at the other word, confess. The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate in praise of ones honour.


Thus we can see that being forced to confess as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is again in complete error.

Does God get glory from lip service? NO, thus those scriptures cannot mean what you say they mean for they expressly say to the GLORY of God the Father.

Also note

no man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 12:3

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



And that confession is made unto salvation.


Romans 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I believe it was clement who first posted this and I know he wont mind me re-posting it.

"Appendix II: Every Knee Shall Bow"

This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. ―This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me‖ (Mt. 15:8)¨ Paul links mouth confession with salvation. ―If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation‖ (Ro. 10:9). ¨ ―No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit‖ (1Co. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart. ¨ The phrase ―confess that Jesus Christ is Lord‖ was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since ―under the earth‖ refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation. ¨ According to Vine, ―bow,‖ (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, ―to bend‖) is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration (Ro.11:4, 14:11; Ep. 3:14; Ph. 2:10). [In contrast] sunkamptō signifies… to bend down by compulsory force‖ (Ro. 11:10). 1 ¨"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Ph. 2:9-11 NAS). Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.
The word ―confess‖ in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as ―forced‖ praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, ―I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…‖ (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, ―I praise you Father.‖ Ro. 15:9 RSV states, ―I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name‖ (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for ―praise‖ (yadah) and ―give thanks‖ (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3¨ That this is true worship is confirmed in Re. 5:13 and by the entire context (Re. 5: 11-14) if they are related. ―Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: ‗Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb‘…‖ (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related? ¨

Ken Eckerty in an article titled, ―The Work of the Cross,‖ said: I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done ―in‖ the name of Jesus, not ―at‖ as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated ―in.‖ ―For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…‖ Mt.18:20 ―In‖ Christ‘s name implies an ―entering into‖ or an intimacy with His name. Confession ―in‖ His name cannot mean anything but intimacy. 4 To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25: 21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is¨" Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15;¨ ―Surely in the LORD I have righteousness‖ (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent. ¨none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.‘ Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

―How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men (Ps. 66:3-5).‖ Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!¨ ―He is able even to subdue all ―things‖ to Himself (Ph. 3:21).‖ Note: ―things‖ is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter! ¨ ―Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19).‖Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship? ¨"―All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory‖ (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.

"In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as ―awesome‖ in the very context of ―enemies submitting themselves‖ through His ―great‖ power. And this mind you, is all in the context of ―all the earth‖ worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is ―forced‖ worship here? As well, they are ―submitting themselves,‖ not ―being‖ submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a ―compassionate subduing‖ from a God ―delighting in mercy‖ (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is ―even able‖ to do something. ―Even able‖ implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most ―awesome‖ and all powerful God!

"―He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow‖ (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word ―therefore‖ links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves. ⁵

"The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, ―Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.‖ 6

Finally, some will say, ―Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.‖ But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.¨ God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him. ¨ ―When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all‖ (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for ―subject‖ is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated? ¨ God Himself works in them ―to will.‖ Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation. ¨ Salvation is directly mentioned here. ―Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure‖ (Ph. 2:11-13). The word ―therefore‖ is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation. ¨"

"Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship."

Eph:2:11-18

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



Can the elect ever be said to be without Christ?

Be aliens from the commonwealth of Israel?

strangers from the covenants of promise?

having no hope?

without God in the world?



This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.

Pneuma3 said:

I have already shown where scripture says every knee shall bow and tongue confess.....you simply do not believe that it means what it says.

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Yes and you ignored my response. It says Lord but not Savior. Everyone condemned to the Lake of Fire will surely know Jesus Christ is Lord because like in the wilderness with the unbelieving Israelites there will be no excuse as God's Physical Presence and Power will be seen by all. No one will be able to withstand Him (Jeremiah 10:10)

redleghunter said:

Actually by Grace through faith.


You are correct which refutes Universalism, as they have even the condemned being dragged to the Kingdom.

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I'm not a universalist. I see little different between universalism and Calvinism. The only difference is that all are irresistibly elected in universalism, vs a few in calvinism. In either case, faith becomes irrelevant, as it is just forcebly applied.

Pneuma3 said:

This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.

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It's not a Calvinist position but Biblical. Ephesians 1 is quite clear on election. Even John Wesley believed in election.

You still have not provided the verse where every knee will bow and confess Jesus as Savior.

Can you also point out to me 'when' even the unbelievers will bow the knee and call Him Lord? And then explain what happens right after that?

Loren T. said:

I'm not a universalist. I see little different between universalism and Calvinism.

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You read the Westminster Confession, Calvin's Institutes and perhaps John Owen's commentaries and came to this conclusion? Or is your impression from reading message boards like this one?

Loren T. said:

The only difference is that all are irresistibly elected in universalism, vs a few in calvinism. In either case, faith becomes irrelevant, as it is just forcebly applied.

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Well you just proved you know little about Calvinism and of course Reformed theology.

redleghunter said:

You read the Westminster Confession, Calvin's Institutes and perhaps John Owen's commentaries and came to this conclusion? Or is your impression from reading message boards like this one?

Well you just proved you know little about Calvinism and of course Reformed theology.

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I've read quite a lot from prominent Calvinists. Invariably, thier doctrine contradicts how they actually present the gospel... modern Calvinists tend to try and live with a tension between what they say they believe and the actual tenets of thier theology, creating confused followers.

Loren T. said:

I've read quite a lot from prominent Calvinists. Invariably, thier doctrine contradicts how they actually present the gospel... modern Calvinists tend to try and live with a tension between what they say they believe and the actual tenets of thier theology, creating confused followers.

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I'd like to see examples of this.

Rev. 5.13= -Robertson N.T. Word Pictures-

Every created thing (παν κτισμα — pān ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (κτισις — ktisis) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

Saying (λεγοντας — legontas). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have λεγοντα — legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with παντα— panta) present active participle of λεγω — legō to say.


And to the Lamb (και τωι αρνιωι — kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Revelation 4:11and the addition of το κρατος — to kratos (active power) in place of ισχυς — ischus (reserve of strength) in Revelation 5:12.

redleghunter said:

You still have not provided the verse where every knee will bow and confess Jesus as Savior.

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Dear stubborn Red: You will note the following word IN/EN in the koine. Not only will every knee bow IN the Name of Jesus Christ, (not "at" the sound of His Name), but in union with the Name. The worship, yes worship, is IN/EN the Name of all names, by all beings in all dimensions of creation, the heavens, the earth, & the underworld. And yes, Red, the worship is not by perfunctory genuflections!

/www.biblestudytools.com/philippians/2-10-compare.html

Robertson Word Pictures

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι— hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.