Limited atonement destroyed

Pneuma3

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Therefore, based on unlimited atonement everyone is saved, even unrepentant rebellious unbelievers. I think this is what Universalists agree to but we know no one who is not of the Covenant in Christ's blood will be saved. So how can an unbeliever who has rejected Christ appropriate the Blood of the New Covenant?

Maybe you can explain how even Christians become Christians by appropriating the Blood of Christ in the New Covenant?

You simply misunderstand the universalists belief red.

People will not forever stay in the state of sin, everyone will eventually come to see Christ as their saviour.

You asked for a scripture that stated Gods atonement is applied to everyone, I gave you one, what you do with that info is up to you.
 
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redleghunter

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He IS the saviour of the world, not the potential saviour of the world.
I agree Jesus is the Savior of the World. However, unlimited atonement makes Christ a potential savior and not a decisive savior. Because we know not everyone will inherit the Kingdom of God.
 
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FineLinen

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Therefore, based on unlimited atonement everyone is saved,

Dear Red: Not just saved "reconciled"! The entire fallen wrecks of Adam 1 made sinners, are the fallen wrecks "made righteous"!

From eternity past God intended that the most vivid and profound demonstration of his glory would come in the form of His work of salvation on the cross of Christ.

- God then made man to punish him.

- He made him perfect and thus unlikely to ever need punishing, or, for that matter, need a Savior.

- By a happy coincidence, and against all the odds, this perfect man sinned, thus allowing God to fulfill His purposes for both the man and Christ.

- When he sinned, God, who is suddenly confronted with the prospect of being able to fulfill all of His original plans, becomes furious.

What you have just read is not a joke. I wish that it were. Rather, I have simply enumerated the points that comprise the Calvinist theological system, or, as I call it: the Happy Coincidence model of sin and salvation.

'It reflects what can only be described as an Alice-in-Wonderland reality, in which the only sense is nonsense, and logic is the enemy. This book will seek to explore some of its many logical inconsistencies and, in the process, propose a perfectly viable--and biblical--alternative.


The Calvinist Universalist | WipfandStock.com
 
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redleghunter

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You simply misunderstand the universalists belief red.

People will not forever stay in the state of sin, everyone will eventually come to see Christ as their saviour.

You asked for a scripture that stated Gods atonement is applied to everyone, I gave you one, what you do with that info is up to you.
And you must now explain how Christ's Atonement is applied to rebellious, unrepentant sinners who reject Christ.

I'll ask again. For Christians how is this applied?
 
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Pneuma3

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I agree Jesus is the Savior of the World. However, unlimited atonement makes Christ a potential savior and not a decisive savior. Because we know not everyone will inherit the Kingdom of God.


That is not what the scriptures say red. People are kept out of the kingdom of God as long as they remain in the sins, Once Christ springs alive in them they have a right to the tree of life and can enter through the gates into the city.
 
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Pneuma3

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And you must now explain how Christ's Atonement is applied to rebellious, unrepentant sinners who reject Christ.

I'll ask again. For Christians how is this applied?

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.


Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.
 
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Loren T.

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I agree Jesus is the Savior of the World. However, unlimited atonement makes Christ a potential savior and not a decisive savior. Because we know not everyone will inherit the Kingdom of God.
If God wants to make the condition for the application of the atonement Belief, who am I to argue? You want a Savior who drags you in by your hair kicking and screaming, you won't find him in scripture.
 
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redleghunter

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You simply misunderstand the universalists belief red.
Oh I think I get it. Everyone will eventually be saved, even those thrown in the Lake of Fire for rejecting the Son of God Jesus Christ in Whom the Father is well pleased. Did I get it right?

People will not forever stay in the state of sin, everyone will eventually come to see Christ as their saviour.
I would really like to see someone systematically explain via exegesis because the Holy Scriptures are devoid of this concept.

You asked for a scripture that stated Gods atonement is applied to everyone, I gave you one, what you do with that info is up to you.

You gave a verse or two with no exegesis. "World" is plausibly interpreted as 'all peoples or nations.' When YHWH addresses Israel in the OT He often differentiates between the people of His Promise Israel and the Gentiles or "Nations." In the NT under the Covenant (New) in Christ's Blood the Holy Spirit communicates the Promise for all peoples Jew or Greek (Gentile). The use of 'world' and 'all' means there are no longer any ethnic or 'national' barriers to whom can be children of the Promise which is the New Covenant in Christ's Blood.

The notion the propitiation of our sins, the atonement, covers every human being ever born to include unrepentant, rebellious unbelievers is refuted by Romans 3:25, John 3:36 and by Christ Himself in Matthew 7:13-14

Only those in the Covenant of Christ's Blood, who by His Grace through faith in His Finished Work are counted as righteous before God.
 
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Pneuma3

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Oh I think I get it. Everyone will eventually be saved, even those thrown in the Lake of Fire for rejecting the Son of God Jesus Christ in Whom the Father is well pleased. Did I get it right?

Close enough.

I would really like to see someone systematically explain via exegesis because the Holy Scriptures are devoid of this concept.

Did you forget about 1Tim.4:10?

You gave a verse or two with no exegesis. "World" is plausibly interpreted as 'all peoples or nations.' When YHWH addresses Israel in the OT He often differentiates between the people of His Promise Israel and the Gentiles or "Nations." In the NT under the Covenant (New) in Christ's Blood the Holy Spirit communicates the Promise for all peoples Jew or Greek (Gentile). The use of 'world' and 'all' means there are no longer any ethnic or 'national' barriers to whom can be children of the Promise which is the New Covenant in Christ's Blood.

The notion the propitiation of our sins, the atonement, covers every human being ever born to include unrepentant, rebellious unbelievers is refuted by Romans 3:25, John 3:36 and by Christ Himself in Matthew 7:13-14

Only those in the Covenant of Christ's Blood, who by His Grace through faith in His Finished Work are counted as righteous before God.

ALL in heaven and earth both the visible and invisible are reconciled by the blood.

Read my new thread the many membered body of Christ to see how this will take place.
 
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redleghunter

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That is not what the scriptures say red. People are kept out of the kingdom of God as long as they remain in the sins, Once Christ springs alive in them they have a right to the tree of life and can enter through the gates into the city.
Let's look at John the Baptist's last testimony:

John 3: NASB
31“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32“What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

How can the wrath of God abide on someone who has been atoned?
 
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redleghunter

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Once Christ springs alive in them they have a right to the tree of life and can enter through the gates into the city.
This happens in the Lake of Fire? Please show me the verse which says those in Judged to be in the Lake of Fire as children of wrath will become children of God.
 
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FineLinen

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Oh I think I get it.

Dear Red: rest assured, you do not get it. The mass in Adam1 are "made sinners": the same mass (the polus) are "made righteous."

How different is that appearance of "the dead small and great" before the great white throne (Rev. 20:11) at the close of the Millennium. Summoned to a resurrection of terrible judgment, those that are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. Behold them now at the consummation, with death the last enemy abolished because its work is done, MADE ALIVE in their "own order," to own the Lordship of that One through the merits of whose cross they have been brought in a glad subjection to His feet.

Thus the drama of creation begins with a scene in which the first Adam takes a step that Ieads all his posterity into ruin and death. It closes with a vision in which the last Adam presents to the Father, as a fruit of His Cross and Throne, a universe of beings delivered from sin and death, and worshiping in adoring wonder at His feet. This is the "purpose of the ages." (Eph. 3:11). This is the goal of creation. Then will Christ see of the travail of His soul and be SATISFIED.

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Saxby/GodInCreationRedemptionJudgmentAndConsummation.htm
 
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redleghunter

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All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.
Show me the verse that there is a difference between the reconciled and the redeemed.
 
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Pneuma3

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Let's look at John the Baptist's last testimony:

John 3: NASB
31“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32“What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

How can the wrath of God abide on someone who has been atoned?

According to scripture the law worketh wrath.
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Ro.4:15

Now we know the law is a ministration of DEATH, but it is also our schoolmaster that lead us to Christ.

Thus what Gods wrath does is minister DEATH to our old man and leads the inner man to Christ.

Thus Paul goes on to say

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Ro.5:9

So what wrath are we being saved from? answer: the wrath of the law.

So what does it mean to be saved from wrath? Just as we are not saved from death but out of death so to are we saved out of the wrath (the power of the law) through Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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If God wants to make the condition for the application of the atonement Belief, who am I to argue?
Actually by Grace through faith.

You want a Savior who drags you in by your hair kicking and screaming, you won't find him in scripture.
You are correct which refutes Universalism, as they have even the condemned being dragged to the Kingdom.
 
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Pneuma3

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Let's look at John the Baptist's last testimony:

John 3: NASB
31“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32“What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

How can the wrath of God abide on someone who has been atoned?

You do realize Jesus suffered the wrath of God for us right?
 
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redleghunter

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So what does it mean to be saved from wrath? Just as we are not saved from death but out of death so to are we saved out of the wrath (the power of the law) through Christ.
By the Blood of the New Covenant (in Jesus Christ) which is the Grace of God through faith. Unbelievers meaning those who are not children of God but children of wrath reject Christ.
 
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Pneuma3

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Actually by Grace through faith.


You are correct which refutes Universalism, as they have even the condemned being dragged to the Kingdom.

funny how so many believe God will literally toss people into a lake of fire kicking and screaming, but have a problem understanding the power of love will drag people into His kingdom.
 
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redleghunter

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You do realize Jesus suffered the wrath of God for us right?
For those who believe (Faith):

John 3: NASB
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
 
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