Why would a benevolent god condone slavery?

DogmaHunter · Oct 11, 2018

Halbhh said:
Why didn't God just outlaw slavery entirely to begin with?

The goal was/is real change for the better. Not merely stating a Law, but people obeying it.

(Background: Slavery was the normal human practice around the world then. Our modern forms are more diverse and less visible, including subtle forms like intentional underpaying of workers even when a company could pay them more easily and still make nice profits.)

So, the goal is real change, up to the real good: "So in everything [including pay of workers, kindness to strangers, everything], do to others as you would have them do to you."

How to get there?

Israel was given 10 commandments, even half of which can be summarized very simply for us modern Christians as "Love your neighbor as yourself."

And they failed to obey this simple Law during the Exodus journey. Over and over.

And that was only the start of the endless failure to obey the simple 10 commandment Law.

Even after gaining the new land, Israel would break the Law not just occasionally, but over and over and over and over.

The general Law, not being followed, then resulted in what I call micro regulations (my wording) -- little detailed rules given to make people better able to do what they should, and what they could in practice, as they were, the people they were.

Baby steps.

Little regulations, like little steps, upward out of the morass of evil and wrong, tiny steps up, one at a time, to lift them out of their wrong and bad ways of treating each other.

Little steps they could actually manage.

And these micro regulations actually help, over time, in a progression, for a larger portion of people.

e.g. -- Instead of 3% obedience, a higher amount happens, like perhaps 15% or 25% even, and later in time higher, like 60%, 80% even, in later generations.

Progression.

Today in 2018, because only some people follow Matthew 7:12, we have our own secular micro regulations --

Detailed. (Think Kavanaugh; what if Kavanaugh knew the little rules):
Maryland Rape and Sexual Assault Laws - FindLaw

This is our secular law -- little detailed bits -- today in the U.S.

Because only some people obey "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you".

Do you think we could chuck (discard) our own secular laws, that slow progression in our own secular law, like the Maryland Rape and Sexual Assault Laws?

Seems the American experience is that we need baby steps upward over time. In America. Today.

Just like in the Old Testament.

To me, all this reads as rather pathetic excuses all just to not admit that the "good book" regulates and allows one of the most vile practices humans can engage in.

It doesn't jive with the rest of the story either. Supposedly God/Jesus had no problem at all being upsetting and controversial. In fact, they were so upsetting / controversial that the first 300 years they suffered almost nothing but prosecution.

Give me a break.

Sorry, but we won't be seeing eye to eye on this.
Honestly, in my view (call it narrow if you must), there is NO EXCUSE and NO JUSTIFICATION for practices like slavery, genocide, infanticide, etc. None at all.

Yes, I know that in those times, morals were different, cultures were different and we can't use our superior 21st century secular / humanist morality to judge those people living in those primitive / barbaric societies.

But, from the perspective of the "good book", the book does not merely reflect THEIR morality... it reflects the opinions and ethics of a supposedly timeless and just GOD.

Personally, as a non-believer, I FULLY and COMPLETELY expect that a book written in those days would reflect the barbaric nature of that society. Fully.

But that's only because in my view, these are just the ramblings of humans that lived at that time. Not the message of a god who should know better.

DogmaHunter · Oct 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Sorry but that is not even logical thinking. See the fallacy of composition and affirming the consequent.

I don't see why that isn't logical.
If you say that slavery is an evil practice, then by definition things that condone, regulate and allow such an evil practice are themselves also evil.

If murder is evil and I, as an authority, then not only allow people to murder but actually regulate the practice and instruct them on how to do it, doesn't that make me evil?

Fallacy of equivocation. And incorrect.

LOL!!!!
When things are the same, they are the same. Not a fallacy...
Slavery = to own humans as personal property.
That's what slavery is. The master owns the slave as if the slave is his property. Scratch that "as if", actually. The slave IS the property of his master. Thats what slavery is. That's what the bible regulates and that's what was going on in the US.

What is it about then? Where is it commanded to treat people like personal property?

Are you joking?

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20–21 NAB)

And I didn't even have to really search for it.

It is Revelation from God to men, it is primary concerned with redemption and progressive covenants dealing with salvation. God does not speak in manner of opinions and among other things, the Pentateuch is representative of the moral failures of men revealed by the Holy Law of God. Not even Moses was permitted to enter the "promised land" (Deuteronomy 1:35).

You forgot to answer the questions.
These rules and regulations concerning slavery (and many other things), do they come from god or not?

Apologetic_Warrior · Oct 11, 2018

Par5 said:
There was no need for a command to treat slaves as property because it was always taken as read that they were the property of the slave owner.

One of the regulations that you believe was given by the biblical god regarding the keeping of slaves indicated that the biblical god already looked on slaves as the property of their master.
From Exodus. "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

"....for the slave is his money." In other words, the slave is his property, he bought the slave as you would a piece of merchandise.

Do you have children? Do they belong to you? Do you have legal rights to them? If you have legal rights, they are yours, you "own" them. That does not make them "property" like a lifeless object to do whatever one will to do with. Do you expect your children to obey you? Are they punished if they disobey? Do you expect them to do chores? Yet you love them yes?

Even today they are not "free" from parental custody until they reach a legal age which can differ from state to state (in USA).

Halbhh · Oct 11, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
To me, all this reads as rather pathetic excuses all just to not admit that the "good book" regulates and allows one of the most vile practices humans can engage in.

It doesn't jive with the rest of the story either. Supposedly God/Jesus had no problem at all being upsetting and controversial. In fact, they were so upsetting / controversial that the first 300 years they suffered almost nothing but prosecution.

Give me a break.

Sorry, but we won't be seeing eye to eye on this.
Honestly, in my view (call it narrow if you must), there is NO EXCUSE and NO JUSTIFICATION for practices like slavery, genocide, infanticide, etc. None at all.

Yes, I know that in those times, morals were different, cultures were different and we can't use our superior 21st century secular / humanist morality to judge those people living in those primitive / barbaric societies.

But, from the perspective of the "good book", the book does not merely reflect THEIR morality... it reflects the opinions and ethics of a supposedly timeless and just GOD.

Personally, as a non-believer, I FULLY and COMPLETELY expect that a book written in those days would reflect the barbaric nature of that society. Fully.

But that's only because in my view, these are just the ramblings of humans that lived at that time. Not the message of a god who should know better.

If you mean what you say -- "...there is NO EXCUSE and NO JUSTIFICATION for practices like slavery, genocide, infanticide, etc. ..." -- then you should appreciate this --

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Every last evil action will be brought into the light and judged. And all will be paid according to what they have done. ( In more detail, according to their understanding and conscience, and ...: Romans 2 NIV )

It's why we need a Savior, to give those that fall on His mercy forgiveness, if we repent (for real, in the heart, not just lip service, but true repentance). Because even those of us not doing serious evils still have done plenty of smaller, minor ones, like judging others wrongly, prejudices, slights, and not so little ones like gossiping at someone's expense, bad characterizations, slanders (of any degree).... A long list, for anyone...

Apologetic_Warrior · Oct 11, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
If murder is evil and I, as an authority, then not only allow people to murder but actually regulate the practice and instruct them on how to do it, doesn't that make me evil?

Your question assumes that all forms of slavery are evil, which is not the case. Some forms help desperate people and improve the quality of their life.

DogmaHunter said:
When things are the same, they are the same. Not a fallacy...Slavery = to own humans as personal property.
That's what slavery is. The master owns the slave as if the slave is his property. Scratch that "as if", actually. The slave IS the property of his master. Thats what slavery is. That's what the bible regulates and that's what was going on in the US.

I assume you have no children. No legal rights to a child. No rules and authority over them. No expectations of them. No consequences for disobeying. No they are not yours, they do not belong to you. You do not tell them what to do, they do no chores. No, we do not think of our children as slaves, but you should perceive many parallels.

DogmaHunter said:
Are you joking?

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20–21 NAB)

And I didn't even have to really search for it.

Not joking, wanted you to back up the assertion. Next, in what sense are they "property", certainly they wouldn't be considered real estate.

DogmaHunter said:
You forgot to answer the questions.
These rules and regulations concerning slavery (and many other things), do they come from god or not?

When someone is irreverent, disrespectful and rude about my faith, I don't forget to answer questions, I don't care about answering them. Why should I care? You've provided no motivation except to attack while I defend. Maybe a different approach would suite you better, closer to how you would talk to someone in "real life". People on the street do not talk like you have to me in this thread.

Halbhh · Oct 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Your question assumes that all forms of slavery are evil, which is not the case. Some forms help desperate people and improve the quality of their life.

I assume you have no children. No legal rights to a child. No rules and authority over them. No expectations of them. No consequences for disobeying. No they are not yours, they do not belong to you. You do not tell them what to do, they do no chores. No, we do not think of our children as slaves, but you should perceive many parallels.

Not joking, wanted you to back up the assertion. Next, in what sense are they "property", certainly they wouldn't be considered real estate.

When someone is irreverent, disrespectful and rude about my faith, I don't forget to answer questions, I don't care about answering them. Why should I care? You've provided no motivation except to attack while I defend. Maybe a different approach would suite you better, closer to how you would talk to someone in "real life". People on the street do not talk like you have to me in this thread.

It's good to also know in these endless false versions of 'God condoned slavery' on the internet that shortly after Exodus 21:20-21 comes Exodus 21:26-27 -- maybe even proglumated on the same day. And these are just the start in a progression, which in time gets to the dramatic Deuteronomy 23 --

15If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

See? A progression, increasingly constricting and controlling slavery, over time, until finally we arrive at Matthew 7:12 and the very short letter to Philemon Philemon 1 NIV

Brother Billy · Oct 11, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
I would like to continue but my background cultural knowledge of Hebrew or slavery and the Israelites is lacking. Our culture and times are so far removed from those ancient times it is difficult to understand. In Hebrew Israelite culture men were also permitted to have numerous wives and concubines but Jesus said it was because of the hardness of their hearts meaning it was not according to the prescriptive will of God or His design for marriage. I could not imagine being married to more than one woman, one is more than I can handle sometimes, same with children, we only have one and he alone is sometimes more than we can handle.

Are you saying that God didn't want to make a law that he thought people would have difficulty in following? What about "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.” Not only have humans always had great difficulty in following these, these are minor in comparison with chattel slavery. Why the inconsistency?

A good moral teacher doesn't tell his followers that they can engage in immoral behavior if they find it difficult to refrain from it. He tells them what ideals they should aspire to. Where does God tell the Hebrews that slavery is wrong?

Apologetic_Warrior said:
One thing worth noting though, the text does not use the word "property" of slaves.

Whaaaaaat? Didn't you read the verses in my original post or the verses that you quoted:

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NKJV)
44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

Not only does the Bible refer to slaves as property, but it says they can be passed down as inheritance to your children when you die. I don't know how much clearer the Bible could get!

Apologetic_Warrior said:
I do not believe any human being with the love of God flowing through them, could look at another human being as personal property.

Jesus refers to slaves and their masters in his parables as if slavery was the natural order of the day. Slaves in the parable of the prodigal son perform routine work in the background of the estate (Luke 15:22, Luke 15:26). Other parables depict cruel treatment of slaves, such as the parable of the wicked tenants. Slaves are disposable: they suffer beatings and death at the hands of tenants (Matt 21:33-44, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:9-18). Some New Testament writers accepted violence against slaves as normal as seen in these parables (see Matt 18:23-35, Luke 19:11-27). If Jesus thought that "love thy neighbor" was inconsistent with keeping slaves as property, don't you think it is strange that he never spoke out against slavery or at the very least, said that slavery is not ideal?

Brother Billy · Oct 12, 2018

For everyone following this thread, I've summarized all the arguments in the first post on this thread and responded to each

Why would a benevolent god condone slavery?

Par5 · Oct 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Do you have children? Do they belong to you? Do you have legal rights to them? If you have legal rights, they are yours, you "own" them. That does not make them "property" like a lifeless object to do whatever one will to do with. Do you expect your children to obey you? Are they punished if they disobey? Do you expect them to do chores? Yet you love them yes?

Even today they are not "free" from parental custody until they reach a legal age which can differ from state to state (in USA).

Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to tell me that the life of my children is comparable to that of a slave. Your post is nothing more than an exercise in semantics. What is wrong with you people that you can't call slavery what it is, a vile and cruel practice? I am willing to bet that in the Exodus account of slavery that if you replaced the biblical god with allah and the Hebrew tribe with some Islamic tribe led by Mohammed, that Christians would be all over it like a rash. Ah, those pagan moon god worshipers, how cruel and ungodly in their treatment of other human beings!

DogmaHunter · Oct 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Do you have children?

Yes.

Do they belong to you?

My son "belong" to me, in the sense of him being my son (my blood, my genes, under my care).

My son, however, does not "belong" to me, in the sense of property. In the sense that I own my car.

Do you have legal rights to them?

I have obligations.

If you have legal rights, they are yours, you "own" them.

That makes no sense. If anything, the reverse is more true. My son "owns" me. I am the one who has legal responsabilities towards my son.

That does not make them "property" like a lifeless object to do whatever one will to do with. Do you expect your children to obey you? Are they punished if they disobey? Do you expect them to do chores? Yet you love them yes?

Actually, no.
I don't want blind obedience.

Even today they are not "free" from parental custody until they reach a legal age which can differ from state to state (in USA).

So, are you seriously comparing toddlers to adult slaves?

DogmaHunter · Oct 12, 2018

Halbhh said:
If you mean what you say -- "...there is NO EXCUSE and NO JUSTIFICATION for practices like slavery, genocide, infanticide, etc. ..." -- then you should appreciate this --

Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds."

Every last evil action will be brought into the light and judged. And all will be paid according to what they have done. ( In more detail, according to their understanding and conscience, and ...: Romans 2 NIV )

So, first God will order people to go on genocidal and infantacidal killing sprees and instruct them how to enslave people.... and then he'll punish them for doing it?

It's why we need a Savior, to give those that fall on His mercy forgiveness, if we repent (for real, in the heart, not just lip service, but true repentance). Because even those of us not doing serious evils still have done plenty of smaller, minor ones, like judging others wrongly, prejudices, slights, and not so little ones like gossiping at someone's expense, bad characterizations, slanders (of any degree).... A long list, for anyone...

Right, right.

So first, you command someone to kill and then you have yourself sacrificed to yourself in order to be able to forgive those who obbeyed your very own commandments.

Awesome.

DogmaHunter · Oct 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Your question assumes that all forms of slavery are evil, which is not the case.

No. All forms of slavery are evil.

Some forms help desperate people and improve the quality of their life.

By taking their life away?

I assume you have no children.

I do have a child. And he's not a slave.

No legal rights to a child. No rules and authority over them. No expectations of them. No consequences for disobeying. No they are not yours, they do not belong to you. You do not tell them what to do, they do no chores. No, we do not think of our children as slaves, but you should perceive many parallels.

Your idea of what slavery is, is extremely warped.

Not joking, wanted you to back up the assertion. Next, in what sense are they "property", certainly they wouldn't be considered real estate.

In the sense of property. In the sense of, you can by and sell them. In the sense of, when you die, your children inherit them.

In the sense of the word: property. Ownership. As in: I paid for it and it is now my personal property. Or, as the bible says: it is "my money".

When someone is irreverent, disrespectful and rude about my faith, I don't forget to answer questions, I don't care about answering them. Why should I care? You've provided no motivation except to attack while I defend. Maybe a different approach would suite you better, closer to how you would talk to someone in "real life". People on the street do not talk like you have to me in this thread.

And again no answer.
It's very telling that you go so out of your way instead of a simple "yes" or "no".

Halbhh · Oct 12, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
So, first God will order people to go on genocidal and infantacidal killing sprees and instruct them how to enslave people.... and then he'll punish them for doing it?

Right, right.

So first, you command someone to kill and then you have yourself sacrificed to yourself in order to be able to forgive those who obbeyed your very own commandments.

Awesome.

You're missing too many details to piece it together, quite reasonably, because you'd have to read fully through several books to get all of the situation/context, to actually know what's happening, the why.

Here's why, and one only learns the full picture in scriptures usually, such as from finding sections like this, because they are reading through fully --

29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’

[Why are they being destroyed? --]

31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods."

The special extreme evil of burning children in fires as sacrifices -- ongoing, routine, permanent as part of their culture -- led to the total destruction of such cities. [and we can learn more about this in other books also]

They were wiped out, with all in them sent on to the Day of Judgement (where all will go in their time) -- where the innocent will be separated out from the guilty. The unrepentant guilty going into the "second death", and the innocent into Life.

Par5 · Oct 12, 2018

Halbhh said:
You're missing too many details to piece it together, quite reasonably, because you'd have to read fully through several books to get all of the situation/context, to actually know what's happening, the why.

Here's why, and one only learns the full picture in scriptures usually, such as from finding sections like this, because they are reading through fully --

29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’

[Why are they being destroyed? --]

31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods."

The special extreme evil of burning children in fires as sacrifices -- ongoing, routine, permanent as part of their culture -- led to the total destruction of such cities. [and we can learn more about this in other books also]

They were wiped out, with all in them sent on to the Day of Judgement (where all will go in their time) -- where the innocent will be separated out from the guilty. The unrepentant guilty going into the "second death", and the innocent into Life.

I don't believe that anyone has said that sacrificing children to their gods was anything other than an act of pure evil. It seems strange therefore that some Christians cannot bring themselves to say that the deliberate slaughter of women, children and infants, as recorded in the bible, is also an act of pure evil. If they had any integrity I believe they should at least have the courage to say that they can't condemn it because it was their god who commanded the slaughter, and to condemn it would mean they were being critical of their god.
Once again I will attempt to get an answer to something I have asked many times to no avail. What kind of person do you think is capable of going from dwelling to dwelling murdering mothers and their children? Is it something you could do, and if not, why not? I direct that question to you Halbhh.

Halbhh · Oct 12, 2018

Par5 said:
I don't believe that anyone has said that sacrificing children to their gods was anything other than an act of pure evil. It seems strange therefore that some Christians cannot bring themselves to say that the deliberate slaughter of women, children and infants, as recorded in the bible, is also an act of pure evil. If they had any integrity I believe they should at least have the courage to say that they can't condemn it because it was their god who commanded the slaughter, and to condemn it would mean they were being critical of their god.
Once again I will attempt to get an answer to something I have asked many times to no avail. What kind of person do you think is capable of going from dwelling to dwelling murdering mothers and their children? Is it something you could do, and if not, why not? I direct that question to you Halbhh.

It will often be confusing to try to understand scripture if one feels certain there is no afterlife. That assumption or belief will make the text seem contradictory in many places. e.g.--How can God be 'good' (benevolent, etc.) if He directed and sometimes directly did the deaths (seeming final death) of innocents along with the guilty....?

? That is, under the assumption there is no afterlife. (That belief there is no next life)

I'm not Jewish nor in a war. Additionally I'm under the "new covenant" -- the change in the rules and the situation and the condition (of humanity) -- so I'm not going to be in a situation where there is a command to entirely destroy a city of great evil.

But, the most basic difference ultimately here is between a view in which death in this mortal body is believed to be a true death that is final vs. a whole different understanding when one knows that death here is only a doorway all will pass through, to what comes next, and what comes next is that the redeemed and the innocent (children that died in every way, war, famine, cancer, every last way) will live.

Par5 · Oct 12, 2018

Halbhh said:
It will often be confusing to try to understand scripture if one feels certain there is no afterlife. That assumption or belief will make the text seem contradictory in many places. e.g.--How can God be 'good' (benevolent, etc.) if He directed and sometimes directly did the deaths (seeming final death) of innocents along with the guilty....?

? That is, under the assumption there is no afterlife. (That belief there is no next life)

I'm not Jewish nor in a war. Additionally I'm under the "new covenant" -- the change in the rules and the situation and the condition (of humanity) -- so I'm not going to be in a situation where there is a command to entirely destroy a city of great evil.

But, the most basic difference ultimately here is between a view in which death in this mortal body is believed to be a true death that is final vs. a whole different understanding when one knows that death here is only a doorway all will pass through, to what comes next, and what comes next is that the redeemed and the innocent (children that died in every way, war, famine, cancer, every last way) will live.

It matters not one jot whether or not I find understanding scripture confusing, and it matters not one jot whether or not I believe in an afterlife, because there is no confusion on my part when it comes to saying that slavery and genocide are wrong.
You say you are not going to be in a situation to commit genocide. Well, I'm not going to be in that situation either, but it would be something I would be incapable of doing no matter who ordered it for the very obvious reason that such a thing is totally wrong. Very obvious to most people anyway. How about you?

Halbhh · Oct 12, 2018

Par5 said:
It matters not one jot whether or not I find understanding scripture confusing, and it matters not one jot whether or not I believe in an afterlife, because there is no confusion on my part when it comes to saying that slavery and genocide are wrong.
You say you are not going to be in a situation to commit genocide. Well, I'm not going to be in that situation either, but it would be something I would be incapable of doing no matter who ordered it for the very obvious reason that such a thing is totally wrong. Very obvious to most people anyway. How about you?

Then you should like the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels.

Ancient of Days · Oct 13, 2018

"My question is, if an omnipotent and benevolent god exists and he gave these laws to humans, why would he condone slavery? A benevolent god and a god that condoned slavery is a contradiction. Either the god of the bible exists, in which case he isn't benevolent or he doesn't exist."

Your whole argument (and initial post) is based on several logical fallacies.
Including but not limited to:
Faulty Appeal to Authority:
Special Pleading:
Propositional Fallacy:
Appeal to Emotion:
The Complex Question:
Bifurcation:

Par5 · Oct 13, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
"My question is, if an omnipotent and benevolent god exists and he gave these laws to humans, why would he condone slavery? A benevolent god and a god that condoned slavery is a contradiction. Either the god of the bible exists, in which case he isn't benevolent or he doesn't exist."

Your whole argument (and initial post) is based on several logical fallacies.
Including but not limited to:
Faulty Appeal to Authority:
Special Pleading:
Propositional Fallacy:
Appeal to Emotion:
The Complex Question:
Bifurcation:

You know, it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some Christians go in an attempt to put a veneer of respectability on something as abhorrent as slavery. Not even the slaughter of mothers and their children seems to move them, and if you think what I an saying comes from a sense of emotion, damn right it does!

Halbhh · Oct 13, 2018

Many evils, including brutal slavery and the special extreme evil of murder of children and many others evils were done by wrong acting people throughout all the Bible.

And many wars. And many other causes of mortal death of this temporary body.

Do i think all war is wrong though? No, i think many wars are wrong, but not all.

When the state executes someone, or conducts war, is that 'murder ' in your view? Trying to understand your view.

Just to be sure you don't reimagine what i believe, again, i believe in the afterlife.

When God removes innocent people from this temporary mortal life into the next life to come, the eternal one, that's not 'murder' because they are alive.

Does that make logical sense?

Humans can murder, but God will rescue when they do. Humans can kill in war, but God will rescue those that die who deserve to live.

Does that make sense?

Why would a benevolent god condone slavery?

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