Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

ColoRaydo said:

There are no technicalities in Christianity. If someone were to accept Christ but die on the way to their own baptism, would they not be saved because they didn’t get baptized first or would they be saved because they meant to? Where’s the cutoff?

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Just as the thief one the cross got Baptized with desire. The normative way is to get water baptized but God can do anything so He knows they desired baptism

ColoRaydo said:

What if they were driving slowly because they wanted to hear the end of game 7 of the World Series? In or out?

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If they were driving slowly because of a baseball game I would wonder what is more important to them wold it be the things of God or baseball.

ColoRaydo said:

Is it an earthly requirement? No.

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Yes, Scriptures say as much and the Church practiced what the Apostles taught for the first 1600 yearss until man decided they knew better.

ColoRaydo said:

It’s faith alone (and true faith will bring about the works and repentance).

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No, it is grace alone through faith which is not alone.

ColoRaydo said:

One thing is for sure, if baptism were a hard and fast requirement for salvation it would be clearly stated so and not left to any possibility of misinterpretation.

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It is quite clearly stated many just do not like it so try to wiggle out of it

Well, I happen to be baptized by choice. Having done so as an adult. Because I see it as a demonstration of faith and obedience rather than a prerequisite to salvation, is it nullified?

ColoRaydo said:

There are no technicalities in Christianity. If someone were to accept Christ but die on the way to their own baptism, would they not be saved because they didn’t get baptized first or would they be saved because they meant to? Where’s the cutoff? What if they were driving slowly because they wanted to hear the end of game 7 of the World Series? In or out?

Should we get baptized? Yes!

Is it an earthly requirement? No.

Baptism will not ensure anyone’s salvation any more than reciting Hail Mary’s or tithing.

It’s faith alone (and true faith will bring about the works and repentance).

One thing is for sure, if baptism were a hard and fast requirement for salvation it would be clearly stated so and not left to any possibility of misinterpretation.

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Aren't you a Lutheran? Don't they believe in baptism for the remission of sins?

ColoRaydo said:

Well, I happen to be baptized by choice. Having done so as an adult. Because I see it as a demonstration of faith and obedience rather than a prerequisite to salvation, is it nullified?

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How funny those who believe in faith alone also say that baptism is a commandment.

David Cabrera said:

Aren't you a Lutheran? Don't they believe in baptism for the remission of sins?

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On paper I’m a Lutheran. I’m a Christian who goes to a Lutheran church. I believe Christ’s sacrifice took care of the sins of all who want to be forgiven rather than most of them that the baptismal font at Christ Lutheran will complete.

David Cabrera said:

How funny those who believe in faith alone also say that baptism is a commandment.

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I assume you are referring to me. I don’t believe baptism is a commandment. I also believe that praying when I don’t feel like it and reading my Bible when I don’t feel like it are acts of obedience rather than commandments as well. None of which will earn my salvation.

ColoRaydo said:

I assume you are referring to me. I don’t believe baptism is a commandment. I also believe that praying when I don’t feel like it and reading my Bible when I don’t feel like it are acts of obedience rather than commandments as well. None of which will earn my salvation.

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I guess I can sin as much as I want without repentance and I will be saved.

justbyfaith said in post #355:

It is the nature of a born again believer to despise sin and to hate and eschew evil.

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Of course, but not necessarily for the rest of his life, because of free will. That's why you have cases like 2 Peter 2:20-22.

For another example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 refers to how born again believers can end up being cut off (Romans 11:22), cast away, and burned (John 15:6), how they can end up losing their salvation, because of unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), even after they have preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others (1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23).

justbyfaith said in post #355:

You seem to think that there is no work of transformation when a man is born again; and that being born again is equal to a commitment to strive to do good works in order to obtain "ultimate" salvation.

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It is God who makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5). But He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

justbyfaith said in post #355:

You seem to think that there is no work of transformation when a man is born again; and that being born again is equal to a commitment to strive to do good works in order to obtain "ultimate" salvation.

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Christians "strive" for ultimate salvation because Jesus Christ told them to (Luke 13:23-24). And the apostle Paul taught the same idea (Philippians 3:11-14).

In Luke 13:24 the gate represents ultimate salvation, at the end of the way of initial salvation, which gate only obedient Christians will be able to enter (Revelation 22:14 KJV, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21). For Christians must "strive" to enter the gate in Luke 13:24, whereas initial salvation involves no striving, but simply faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

ColoRaydo said in post #360:

It’s faith alone (and true faith will bring about the works and repentance).

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Note that it's not faith alone with regard to ultimate salvation (James 2:24). And true faith will not necessarily result in continued works (Matthew 25:26,30) or continued repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29), because of free will.

ColoRaydo said in post #360:

One thing is for sure, if baptism were a hard and fast requirement for salvation it would be clearly stated so and not left to any possibility of misinterpretation.

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Note that the Bible does make clear that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

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ColoRaydo said in post #362:

Well, I happen to be baptized by choice. Having done so as an adult. Because I see it as a demonstration of faith and obedience rather than a prerequisite to salvation, is it nullified?

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No. But note that obedience is a prerequisite to ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

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ColoRaydo said in post #367:

I believe Christ’s sacrifice took care of the sins of all who want to be forgiven rather than most of them that the baptismal font at Christ Lutheran will complete.

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Note that it is baptism which brings us into Christ’s sacrifice (Romans 6:3-11).

Bible2+ said:

so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation

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This is a sincere question: What conditions? And how do you know when or if your “works” are good enough.

At some point there has to be a cutoff of works required for “ultimate salvation”. How do you know you’ve crossed the threshold of “good enough” works? And if you’ve made it to that point can you rest on your laurels? Or do you have to keep going because if you don’t you can never be sure?

The way one can easily interpret what you’ve written is that it would be better to die immediately after initial salvation because everything after that is tenuous.

Finally, so we don’t totally hijack this thread, what about the Christian who plans to get baptized but dies before being immersed? Are they technically saved because they meant to or technically unsaved because they didn’t complete the task?

Don’t misinterpret what I believe. I believe we will be rewarded based on works. I believe faith without works is dead. I don’t believe any true Christians would not believe in doing good works.

Bible2+ said:

Of course, but not necessarily for the rest of his life, because of free will. That's why you have cases like 2 Peter 2:20-22.

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If you say so (2 Timothy 2:24-26).

I have contended that the devil is not Omnipotent and therefore cannot transform back into a dog or a pig someone who has been transformed into a sheep by Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

It is only a dog or a pig that returns to its vomit and back to its wallowing in the mire.

It is not in the nature of sheep to do such a thing.

If someone, because of free will, returns to their vomit or back to their wallowing in the mud, it is because they were never a sheep in the first place. Those who return to their vomit and wallowing are dogs and pigs; they are not sheep.

You seem to want to plant the suggestion in all of us that we can fall away.

Now if you were saying it as a warning, I would be in complete agreement with you. We need to heed the warnings of scripture; and those who heed the warnings are the same ones who are the true recipients of the promises.

But it seems to me that you are not saying these things as warnings, but that you are attempting to suggest that we can fall away so that when a Christian backslides, he will believe that he has fallen away and that there is no redemption for him.

I would contend that he has only fallen from the third story of the building to the second story, from being a Romans 8 believer to being a Romans 7 believer. There is injury, yes indeed; but he is not beyond and without any hope. Job 14:7-11 and Psalms 23:3 tell me that restoration is possible for someone like this. The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord; and though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord sustains him.

As long as there has not been a total and complete rejection of Jesus Christ, there is hope. Peter denied the Lord three times and was later restored. His faith did not fail. He went to feed Jesus' sheep and lambs.

ColoRaydo said in post #370:

[Re: There are conditions placed on the initially saved if they are to obtain ultimate salvation]

What conditions?

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It is sometimes claimed that once someone is saved, there are no conditions with regard to his remaining saved forevermore.

But note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do these things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back, and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

ColoRaydo said in post #370:

And how do you know when or if your “works” are good enough.

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Jesus Christ gives each Christian his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And He gives different Christians different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it is not possible for all Christians to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for Him. And so any one Christian should not (as sometimes happens) judge any other Christian for not doing the same spiritual work that he or she is doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she is accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any Christian think that the spiritual work which Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there is still no room for complacency, because for those Christians who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those Christians who have not been given as much spiritual talent by God, they are still expected to accomplish something for Him (Galatians 6:4-5), and not to just sit back and do nothing at all for Him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

ColoRaydo said in post #370:

Finally, so we don’t totally hijack this thread, what about the Christian who plans to get baptized but dies before being immersed? Are they technically saved because they meant to or technically unsaved because they didn’t complete the task?

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That would depend on how they used the time between their intention to be immersed and it actually happening, just as, regarding repenting from a sin, it depends on how someone uses the time between knowing that they need to repent and their actually repenting.

For the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

justbyfaith said in post #371:

It is only a dog or a pig that returns to its vomit and back to its wallowing in the mire.

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Of course. But even truly born-again people can wrongly employ their free will to return to being as such (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Similarly, Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that true Christians can wrongly employ their free will to bring forth some corrupt fruit, as in some unrepentant sinful actions, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27). Also, Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that true Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fail to continue to bring forth good fruit, as in becoming utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Instead, regarding true Christians, Matthew 7:16-20 is showing how to determine whether a true Christian is "good" or has wrongly employed his free will to return to being corrupt (2 Peter 2:20-22).

justbyfaith said in post #371:

You seem to want to plant the suggestion in all of us that we can fall away.

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That is what the Bible itself teaches.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that true Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

justbyfaith said in post #371:

But it seems to me that you are not saying these things as warnings, but that you are attempting to suggest that we can fall away so that when a Christian backslides, he will believe that he has fallen away and that there is no redemption for him.

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If by "backslides" you mean commits a sin other than apostasy, no. For there is still the chance for redemption if he repents. For salvation is ultimately lost due to sin only if a Christian refuses to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) until he dies (1 John 5:16) or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46).

justbyfaith said in post #371:

As long as there has not been a total and complete rejection of Jesus Christ, there is hope.

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Amen, so long as one is still alive.

For 1 John 5:16a means that if a Christian sees a fellow Christian commit a sin, before that fellow Christian dies it is possible for the first Christian to exhort him to repent from that sin (Hebrews 3:13) and to pray with him that God would forgive him for it (1 John 1:9). But 1 John 5:16b means that it is possible for a Christian to wrongly employ his free will to commit a sin without repentance until he dies, at which point there is no use praying for forgiveness for that sin. For there is no forgiveness for a sin which is not repented from while someone is still alive (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If someone is genuinely born again through a living faith in Jesus Christ, he or she cannot fall away. He or she has passed from death into everlasting life, he or she shall not come into condemnation, he or she shall never perish; no one can snatch him or her out of Jesus' or the Father's hand: Jesus will never leave nor forsake them: lo, He is with them always. If they give diligence to make their calling and election sure, they will never fall; and an abundant entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be provided to them...etc.

justbyfaith said in post #374:

If someone is genuinely born again through a living faith in Jesus Christ, he or she cannot fall away.

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Note that he or she can, because of free will (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of his or her salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

justbyfaith said in post #374:

He or she has passed from death into everlasting life, he or she shall not come into condemnation . . .

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John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

justbyfaith said in post #374:

. . . he or she shall never perish; no one can snatch him or her out of Jesus' or the Father's hand . . .

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John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

justbyfaith said in post #374:

. . . Jesus will never leave nor forsake them: lo, He is with them always.

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Hebrews 13:5b applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).

justbyfaith said in post #374:

If they give diligence to make their calling and election sure, they will never fall; and an abundant entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be provided to them...etc.

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Regarding 2 Peter 1:10, note that 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives no assurance that true Christians will choose to give diligence to do all of the different things listed here, but shows that it is possible for a true Christian to wrongly employ his free will to not do any of these things (2 Peter 1:9), meaning that it is possible for him to fail to obtain ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a). For doing all of these things is required to obtain ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, cf. 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

Bible2+ said:

Note that he or she can, because of free will (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of his or her salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

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When they get to heaven, do they still have free will?

Bible2+ said:

Regarding 2 Peter 1:10, note that 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives no assurance that true Christians will choose to give diligence to do all of the different things listed here, but shows that it is possible for a true Christian to wrongly employ his free will to not do any of these things (2 Peter 1:9), meaning that it is possible for him to fail to obtain ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a). For doing all of these things is required to obtain ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, cf. 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

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I know I'm secure in Christ because I do these things. Because I do these things, the other promises also apply to me.

However, you are not secure in Christ because at any time you can employ your free will to stop doing these things if you are even doing them at all now.

Therefore you can fall away at any time. Throughout eternity, you will endeavor for ever and ever to keep your salvation, and will never have any rest. Because the moment you begin to rest, suddenly you are lazy without repentance and are in danger of losing your heavenly position in Christ.

justbyfaith said in post #376:

When they get to heaven, do they still have free will?

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Of course, just as the Christians in the literal city of New Jerusalem, in the eternal state on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5), as in a new surface for the earth, will still have free will. For God wants real children (Revelation 21:7), not robots. But because of their continued free will, it will be possible for Christians in New Jerusalem to sin. But they will not ever have to sin, just as Christians now do not ever have to sin (Romans 6:17-22).

If a Christian in the eternal state does commit a sin, what will happen to him will depend upon what he does next. If he repents, he will be forgiven (1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent, he will be chastened (Revelation 3:19). And if he still refuses to repent, he will end up in the lake of fire (Hebrews 10:26-27).

The lake of fire will exist on the New Earth, outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15, Revelation 21:8). A lot else will also exist on the New Earth. For a new race of humans will be created along with the New Earth, which human race will fall into sin and mortality, although they will then normally die at advanced ages (Isaiah 65:17,20). Christians of the present earth could become like the angels of the New Earth, in the sense that they could minister to the elect members of the new race of humans, like how angels now minister to the elect humans on the present earth (Hebrews 1:14).

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justbyfaith said in post #377:

Throughout eternity, you will endeavor for ever and ever to keep your salvation, and will never have any rest.

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No, for there is rest in obedience (Matthew 11:28-30), while there is no rest in disobedience (Isaiah 57:20-21).

Neostarwcc said:

There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:

“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.

Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.


These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.

There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"

So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.

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Those who have been saved by faith apart from works go on to get baptized, not to be saved nor to maintain their salvation, but simply because it's the right thing to do. Saved people go on to do a lot of stuff.

The point of baptism is to publicly identify your allegiance to Christ.

bcbsr said in post #379:

The point of baptism is to publicly identify your allegiance to Christ.

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The point of baptism is to spiritually bring you into Christ (Galatians 3:27) and into His atoning death (Romans 6:3-11).

That is why the Bible shows that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21), by water-immersion (burial) baptism (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4-11, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).