Christ crucified is "for" us, but more like as Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer say: a ransom payment offered to us (while we were unbelieving sinners) and not a gift for us.
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Did Jesus Christ die for our sins?
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No
No but He atoned for them.
One has to be in Christ in order for this to be. Meaning He had to bear our sins and provide the atonement of our sins to be 'in' Him.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
This is substitution language. Meaning the substitute does not commit the sins but atones for them and carries them away. The shadow of this is in Leviticus 16.
Leviticus 16: ESV
11“Aaron shall present the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. He shall kill the bull as a sin offering for himself. 12And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and he shall bring it inside the veil 13and put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is over the testimony, so that he does not die. 14And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat on the east side, and in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.
15“Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses. 17No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel. 18Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.
20“And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.
23“Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there. 24And he shall bathe his body in water in a holy place and put on his garments and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25And the fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26And he who lets the goat go to Azazel shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. Their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned up with fire. 28And he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.
More: Leviticus 16 ESV
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Christ's death is a ransom payment to us the sinner? God is paying us off for what reason?
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What Christ did is described as the “atonement sacrifice”, “ransom payment” and “the shedding of His blood”, but not the whole atonement “process”.
Again, Christ is not “provide the atonement of our sins” ,but is described as the “atonement sacrifice”, “ransom payment” and “the shedding of His blood”, but not the whole atonement “process”.
WOW, there is a lot to be addressed with the interpretation of this verse:
What does Christ becoming “sin” mean to you? Did Christ become a sinner? Did Christ become an intangible object of “sin”?
If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?
Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21
There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).
The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.
You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.
I much prefer Lev. 5 where it describes and explains the atonement sacrifice of an individual for unintentional sins (really minor sins), which we might extrapolate up to what the atonement sacrifice might be required for rebellious disobedience directly against God (like picking up sticks on the Sabbath).
Lev. 16 takes some explaining:
First off: what “sins” are we talking about? We know from Lev.5 how unintentional sins are to be handled and from other scripture we know how direct disobedience against God sins are handled (death or banishment). These sins are ones you are not even sure you committed or are not sure they are even sins, it is like a catch all for everything else (questionable sins).
Do you feel the scape goat became a sinner?
What part(s) of sin is going to be bore by the goat?
What if you are feeling “guilty” about something you did not even do, what does this do for you?
If the scape goat or even any of these sacrifices are to be substitutes for a sinner, why are they not cruelly tortured to death? The description of slitting the throat of an animal is a very humane way to kill them and the scape goat is set free?
Where is the substitution of the sinner, because the priest seems to be a substitute?
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When you study with a nonbeliever are you trying to get him/her to accept the Bible, some doctrine or some action?
Are we not wanting the nonbeliever to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified? Will that is the same as saying we want the nonbeliever to accept the ransom payment.
You do good to ask: "God is paying us off for what reason?" since a ransom payment is made to a criminal, undeserving kidnapper, we are certainly not deserving of the payment. God really should not pay us.
We, as nonbelievers, hold a child of God out of the Kingdom where God resides and only children can enter the kingdom. Every nonbeliever has within them that child which can go to the kingdom. God will not forcible separate the sinner and child within because the sinner actually has to allow himself to become that child of his own free will or the sinner will remain. God is doing all He can to help the sinner chose to change and join the feast he does not deserve, but God is not going to become a kidnapper Himself and take a child. This gets into the much bigger topic of salvation and free will.
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Don't know what you mean by "but not the whole atonement process."
Unless you have a different definition of 'is' Christ is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2)
Also, as a propitiation in His blood through faith (Romans 3:25)
He is also called the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
He made purification of sins (Hebrews 1:3)
Already explained by the Apostle Peter as Christ bore, carried our sins (1 Peter 2:24) and becoming the curse in our place (Galatians 3:13).
However, Leviticus 16 references the Day of Atonement sacrifices, which is the foreshadowing of Christ.
Because of this:
Hebrews 10: NASB
1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
And because of this:
Isaiah 53: NASB
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
See above. And this:
Hebrews 4: NASB
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Jesus Christ is indeed our High Priest. Therefore, there is substitution in satisfaction and substitution in being our High Priest.
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We don't study with them, we preach the Gospel handed to us by Christ and His Apostles. We don't water down the Gospel to make it palatable to unbelievers. We communicate the Truth and those who seek Truth seek Christ.
If anyone preaches a different Gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:9).
We are to preach the Gospel, meaning sow the seed. The Holy Spirit works the heart and soul of the unbeliever. God removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. Regeneration is not a negotiation with non-believers.
Why would a non-believer accept a ransom payment which is not due to them. God owes us nothing. Unbelievers (all of us at one time too!) are dead in their trespasses. The dead do not respond to anything because they are dead. Someone needs to wake them up, to resurrect their dead nature.
For this reason it says,
“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.” (Ephesians 5:14)
Indeed which means your version of the Ransom theory is invalid or underdeveloped. At least the ancients believed in a somewhat Biblical view of a sinner in bondage to sin and death, and as such a slave to Satan. Yet, I find even their Ransom theory as weak and incomplete.
Unbelievers, those who are children of wrath (Ephesians 2) are dead in their trespasses. How can they accept a ransom payment without being made alive in Christ?
No, this is not true this is why:
Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
What changes us from children of wrath to children of God is God's Sovereign design and action.
No, no this is completely wrong. See above from Ephesians chapter 2. We are in bondage to sin and death before God in His great mercy, love and grace makes us alive together in Christ. He removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. This is what Saved by Grace means!
Here's more of the "I will" statements of God for the New Covenant:
Ezekiel 36: NASB
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
See Ezekiel 36 quote above. YHWH says "I will." Jesus Christ is not like some beggar waiting hat in hand for people to choose Him. Jesus said many would be called but few are chosen. God chooses. (Matthew 22)
Jesus said the Father gives Him the sheep and that He (Jesus) lays down His life for the sheep and none of them will perish or be plucked from the Father. (John 10)
It sure does as God is Sovereign in Salvation. Free will is nowhere to be found. The will of humans yes, that is to be found and we do have choices. Our choices or human will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to Christ and righteousness. (Romans 6)
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Look at the atonement process for individual atonement of unintentional sins found in Lev. 5.
Male Jews would have had experience actually going through the atonement process of Lev. 5 prior to Christ coming on the scene. There is a part the sinner plays and experience. The atonement sacrifice is only part of the process.
NIV 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hilasmos is only use two times 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10
in the Septuagint (Leviticus 25:9; Numbers 5:8; Amos 8:14)
NIV 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
NIV Leviticus 25:9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land
Numbers 5:8 (NIV) 8 But if that person has no close relative to whom restitution can be made for the wrong, the restitution belongs to the Lord and must be given to the priest, along with the ram with which atonement is made for the wrongdoer.
In Numbers 5 you also see Hilasmos describing the sacrifice of the ram and not the complete atonement process
We all agree that Jesus is our “atonement sacrifice”, but is there anything beyond that is the question?
John Stott writes that propitiation "does not make God gracious...God does not love us because Christ died for us, Christ died for us because God loves us". So, what is the sacrifice doing?
Again, In agreement with John Stott, Christ’s cruel torturous murder on the cross is not to help God to be merciful/gracious/forgiving/Loving/ Charitable toward us, but Christ went to the cross as a ransom to be offered to us (a ransom for us) so we can accept His Charity.
God will not be upset with us if we humble accept the Loving discipline and forgiveness, but if we reject this huge ransom payment, we are also rejecting His forgiveness, so His wrath falls upon us.
Hilasterion translated atonement sacrifice, propitiation, mercy seat cover, and expiation is very difficult to have agreement on also, since it is not used much Ro. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5 and is used in different ways.
NIV Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
If you lack “faith” will you reject the blood and sacrifice of atonement (propitiation if you like)?
OK
“Bore” conveys the idea of being carried away going back to the Greek and you said earlier that Christ did not become a sinner so what is this saying?
Christ took away the grief of my sins and by being the way I can now be Lovingly justly disciplined my wounds have been healed. Again Christ is doing all this to help me and not to help God in some way.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
How is the “Law” a curse on us and then we might understand what curse means?
Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of. Lev. 5 maybe a better shadow of the reality. There is some stuff in Lev. 16 which helps a little in explaining what Christ did on the cross, but Christ is not trying to be the replacement for Lev. 16, since the sacrifice on the day of atonement did very little and would not “save” an individual. What specifically are you getting from Lev. 16?
The High Priest is there to help the people and Christ did that. Our substitute at the cross would be those standing around, maybe one of the thieves, one of the Romans, or anyone else but Christ is my substitute standing in for what I would do.
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It means what it says. He carried our sins to the cross. The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the death penalty for sin and death. He did that for us, instead of us.
The Law condemns all mankind---SIN
Jesus' death and resurrection cancelled out the debt owed by us.
Colossians 2: NASB
13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
You misunderstand shadows. Your reference to Lev 5 is also a shadow. Here's another example of a shadow or example of substitution from the OT:
Genesis 22: NASB
9Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the LORD it will be provided.”
The Gospel on "every page" of the Bible.
What makes Lev 16 superior to Lev 5 is that YHWH is prescribing what must be done on the Day of Atonement. Therefore, that has the direct link to the Atonement of Christ.
I don't think the Roman soldiers and those bystanders is what Biblically is called a substitute. They stand in line with us as needing a substitute.
Maybe there is a gross misunderstanding between us on what is meant by substitution.
If I am a High School teacher and come down ill (nothing serious of course) but take a sick day. The school calls in another teacher to take on my classes and my curriculum. What would we call such a teacher who comes in my place to teach my class?
If I am a Quarterback on a football team and take a tackle and receive a compound fracture, and the backup Quarterback comes in for me, what is that called?
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I was defining substitute for another poster.
When someone does the work in place of someone else that is substitution.
The examples are fine. Neither the starting QB, nor the sick teacher have the capability to do the work. The substitutes do.
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I have found I am not curious about the details of substitution/atonement/whatever due to the revelation God gave about His nature regarding how one may redeem another from slavery to sin as our Kinsman-Redeemer (illustrated in the book of Ruth). It explains a variety of passages such as why Jesus had to become like His brothers (Hebrews 2:17), a major argument about how He fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17), et al.
Suffice it to say, it is clear Jesus had to die for us, otherwise the price for our redemption has not been paid, and we will have to pay for our sin ourselves after God's grace for time to accept Him by faith expires. Without the rebirth God grants after yielding to His Lordship, we are still dead in our sins. (One can't yield to His Lordship without first believing in Him.)
Suffice it to say, it is clear Jesus had to die for us, otherwise the price for our redemption has not been paid, and we will have to pay for our sin ourselves after God's grace for time to accept Him by faith expires. Without the rebirth God grants after yielding to His Lordship, we are still dead in our sins. (One can't yield to His Lordship without first believing in Him.)
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Sorry I lost track of this.
Was Christ crucified because of us (for us)?
Was Christ crucified because we sinned?
Christ cruel torture, humiliation and murder is described as a ransom payment, so who is the unworthy kidnapper being offered this payment?
If so what is left for Christ to pay?
NIV 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
“He forgave us all our sins” is specifically said so we agree with being forgiven, but it does not stop there but explains what it means “14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, so the forgiveness = canceling the certified written debt against us.
Being under the law our rebellious disobedience against God was to be “paid” as it was written with: “banishment or death”. That payable “debt” was forgiven, but nothing is said about it also being “paid” and if it was forgiven it would not need to be paid. What is said is “He (God) has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross”, but again this does not mean it was also “paid” and “what” is being taken away need to be explained, but we have establish it has been forgiven.
The “…having nailed it to the cross” does not seem to just refer to the one individual debt payment, but the entire law of Moses. The entire Law of Moses was done away with (cancelled) and the Law written on our hearts was put in its place. Remember the Law itself is not the creator of the debt but sin is, so the debt is not being nailed but the “contract” itself is cancelled (nailed to the cross). Most seem to agree that the Mosaic Law was taken away (nailed to the cross), so do you have something else?
James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
The Bible says Abraham did offer up Isaac even though Abraham did not actually kill him and burn him on the altar.
This was done as a test of Abraham’s faith and not for a sin offering.
Where does it say: “Isaac is a sinner being made a sin offering”?
Was Isaac or the ram to be tortured, humiliated and killed?
There are examples especially with the priests, being a kind of “substitute”, representative of all the Jewish people. I see many people at times “taking my place” at the cross (everyone there except Jesus), but the Love Christ had for and showed for others at this time goes way beyond what I am willing to do.
Christ is going to the cross “instead” of us, but not as our substitute, like the Lamb was killed and burned up instead of Isaac, but the Lamb was not offered up “instead” of Isaac, because the Bible says “Abraham did offer up Isaac”.
There is a lot of parallels here with Christ going to the cross, but like Isaac and the lamb were both offered up, we to must be crucified with Christ, so we both go to the cross.
If I had physically been at the cross I would have been like those crucifying Christ (unfortunately), so the represent me there.
We both die physically and spiritually (when we sin), so how is Christ taking our “wage of sin” on himself if we pay by having died spiritually and will die physically?
Was Christ crucified because of us (for us)?
Was Christ crucified because we sinned?
Christ cruel torture, humiliation and murder is described as a ransom payment, so who is the unworthy kidnapper being offered this payment?
Did God forgive the debt we owe to Him?
If so what is left for Christ to pay?
“…He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,” Does the forgiveness of our transgression makes us alive?
NIV 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
“He forgave us all our sins” is specifically said so we agree with being forgiven, but it does not stop there but explains what it means “14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, so the forgiveness = canceling the certified written debt against us.
Being under the law our rebellious disobedience against God was to be “paid” as it was written with: “banishment or death”. That payable “debt” was forgiven, but nothing is said about it also being “paid” and if it was forgiven it would not need to be paid. What is said is “He (God) has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross”, but again this does not mean it was also “paid” and “what” is being taken away need to be explained, but we have establish it has been forgiven.
The “…having nailed it to the cross” does not seem to just refer to the one individual debt payment, but the entire law of Moses. The entire Law of Moses was done away with (cancelled) and the Law written on our hearts was put in its place. Remember the Law itself is not the creator of the debt but sin is, so the debt is not being nailed but the “contract” itself is cancelled (nailed to the cross). Most seem to agree that the Mosaic Law was taken away (nailed to the cross), so do you have something else?
Heb. 11: 17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.
James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
The Bible says Abraham did offer up Isaac even though Abraham did not actually kill him and burn him on the altar.
This was done as a test of Abraham’s faith and not for a sin offering.
Where does it say: “Isaac is a sinner being made a sin offering”?
Was Isaac or the ram to be tortured, humiliated and killed?
There are examples especially with the priests, being a kind of “substitute”, representative of all the Jewish people. I see many people at times “taking my place” at the cross (everyone there except Jesus), but the Love Christ had for and showed for others at this time goes way beyond what I am willing to do.
Christ is going to the cross “instead” of us, but not as our substitute, like the Lamb was killed and burned up instead of Isaac, but the Lamb was not offered up “instead” of Isaac, because the Bible says “Abraham did offer up Isaac”.
There is a lot of parallels here with Christ going to the cross, but like Isaac and the lamb were both offered up, we to must be crucified with Christ, so we both go to the cross.
That does not make logical sense since Lev. 5 “is atonement for them for their sin” each individual sinner, but just unintentional sins. Lev.16 is the atonement process for sins you just think you might have done. The atonement sacrifice of Christ covers all sins, especially those which you knew had no way to be atoned which resulted in death or banishment.
Those are substitutes, which Christ going to the cross is not being my substitute. since I go to the cross with Him.
If I had physically been at the cross I would have been like those crucifying Christ (unfortunately), so the represent me there.
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Ephesians 2:1-5
1 John 1:7
See Isaiah 53
Yes. See Ephesians 2
If it was nailed to the same Cross as Christ yes indeed it was paid in full.
1 John 2:1-2
There was no shedding of blood therefore no sacrifice. Abraham willing offered, God said stop and provided a ram instead of Isaac, a substitute.
Again the Day of Atonement sacrifices in Leviticus 16 show us the nature of Atonement. Which is used as the example and shadow of the Atonement in the Blood of Christ.
The only reason we can take up our cross and follow Him is because He accomplished it all by saying "It is finished."
Substitution is evident from Genesis 3 to Revelation 22
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You are giving me scripture verses that have been interpreted many different ways. There are at least 12 different “theories” of atonement supported by Biblical scholars, so if the interpretation of all the scriptures on atonement could only “obviously” be understood one way, there would be no theories, but only one explanation.
Yes, there are a limited number of scriptures that do seem to support Penal Substitution, while others seem to support other theories.
You list whole chapters while I might need to write a page on each verse to show the most likely interpretation of that verse.
Again, we use the same word with different means like “substitution”.
Yes, Christ is physically taking our physical place on the cross, so in that since there is a “substitution”, but Christ is not being punished by God instead of God punishing us (Penal Substitution). The “substitution” taking place does not mean we still do not need to be fairly/justly lovingly disciplined as children of God even though Christ went to the cross. Humbly accepting God’s charity of Forgiven provides salvation, but we still could use Loving discipline.
Do you see the benefits in seeing to the disciplining of your children?
I see people in the New Testament scriptures going through, expressing it themselves and asking Christians to remember being crucified “with” Christ, so why is that not extreme severe disciplining?
I myself have felt and reexperience being crucified with Christ when I really remember what Christ did on the cross because of me, especially with communion, so is that wrong?
Christ crucifixion was done “for” me, something I caused, something I can accept, something I want and need, something that can lift me to a new higher relationship with God/Christ (this is something parental discipline should do for the child/parent relationship) and something that allows me now to comfortably stand justified before God.
Why is this experience I had in being crucified with Christ not true?
If it is true than the question is: “Is there more needing to happen, where is this extra stuff happening shown in scripture and why is it needed?”
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