A Verdict in search of Evidence: (360 words)

Daniel Martinovich

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Most of what people believe about the end times today has no scriptural support. It comes from a theory based on what might happen if we insert a gap of indefinite duration, now thousands of years long and counting, between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks. And then recreate the Roman Empire, to place it in its foretold setting, rounding it out for the sake of detail.

1. That would be to imagine a revived Roman empire. The same setting the original 70th week would have had if left intact.

2. Then, instead of Jesus who died for our sins in the middle of the 70th week, as the angel Gabriel predicted. Ignore this, and turn Jesus into a future “Antichrist” ruling over the 70th week, now a tribulation 7 years long, thousands of years into the future.

3. And then squeeze in a pre-trib rapture according to Margaret MacDonald’s fever induced visions of the 1800s. Even though scripture mentions only one rapture Paul says will happen after the resurrection on the last day.

4. Then add a rebuilt temple, and return to animal sacrifice with red heifers, all the time assuming Ezekiel’s temple visions were blueprints for a third temple. Even though the book of Hebrews solidly rejects a return to animal sacrifices giving the temple spiritual meaning.

5. And more, let’s say, Russia marching on Israel where ancient prophecies can come alive a second time. If, we sever them from their context and original historical settings. And turn spears into nuclear weapons and horses into aircraft. And Israel’s cattle, the reason Gog and Magog originally invaded Israel, now changed into oil and commerce. (They say their ignorance of this ever happening is proof it must happen in the future).

All based on the idea of what might happen if we sever Daniel’s 70th week from the rest of the bible. And lift scripture at will, here and there to build a case around it. All of this despite the fact Gabriel presented the weeks in an adjoining fashion. Jesus fulfilled them in the first century, and scripture doesn’t mention a gap.
The reason behind the darkness is to blind people to the fact that we are now in the age of promise that have a hundred plus chapters of prophecy about it. To rob them of a scriptural vision for the future which then empowers Satan and those he influences.
End Time Prophecy
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Albion

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The Episcopal church that I was referring to is part of the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta, of the Episcopal Church. They do hold charismatic services.
Okay. There is a coincidence involved, then. There is a denomination named the Charismatic Episcopal Church, as I mentioned, but you did not capitalize the first word there (charismatic) and I just jumped to an erroneous conclusion. The Episcopal church you referred to has charismatic services, and that's not surprising.

Your question, then, concerned the difference between the Episcopal Church and the Anglican churches. As I explained, the terms are almost synonyms but different branches of the faith are usually identified by which of the two they call themselves. The Episcopal Church is generally considered more liberal while the Anglican churches which broke away from The Episcopal Church over some of its changes in recent years are more traditional in faith and practice.

If this sounds strange, I am aware that it happens in other branches of Christianity, too, as for example with the Methodists and the Wesleyans. Both terms refer to the same movement started by John Wesley who in his day was called, derisively, a "Methodist" (meaning too methodical). Yet there are today churches calling themselves by the one term and others using the other one.
 
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Here is a verse which disproves a rapture (separate from the Second Coming).

Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane:

15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.[a]
John 17:15 Or from evil
--John 17:15 RSV


15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
--John 17:15 NIV

Jesus does NOT ask God the Father to take Christians out of this world.
Instead, He requests God the Father to protect Christians from the wiles of the Devil.

Actually it doesn't disprove a rapture separate from the Second Coming.
In that awesome prayer by Jesus , He was referring to the apostles at that particular time.
Why?
Because He knew He would be crucified soon and would no longer be with them in the manner that He was .
It had NOTHING to do with the future event of the rapture of the Church whatsoever.
 
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Dale

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Actually it doesn't disprove a rapture separate from the Second Coming.
In that awesome prayer by Jesus , He was referring to the apostles at that particular time.
Why?
Because He knew He would be crucified soon and would no longer be with them in the manner that He was .
It had NOTHING to do with the future event of the rapture of the Church whatsoever.



Itisfinished,

Just take a look at another verse from the Gospel. According to Matthew, the final words of Jesus before He ascended into heaven were "I am with you always, to the very end of the age." The "end of the age" means the end of the world, so Jesus promises to be with believers until the Second Coming, until the Final Judgment. Jesus promises to be with Christians until the world ends, not until the church is removed from the world.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
--Matthew 28:10-20 NIV

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
--Matthew 28:19-20 KJV

Commentators are quite clear on what this means. It means the Jesus Christ with be with the church and with all believers until the Final Judgment.

John Gill Commentary on Matthew 28:20

and lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world:
meaning, not merely to the end of their lives, which would be the end of the world to them; nor to the end of the Jewish world, or state, which was not a great way off, though this is sometimes the sense of this phrase; but to the end of the world to come, the Gospel church state, which now took place; or to the end of the present world, the universe: not that the apostles should live to the end of it; but that whereas Christ would have a church and people to the end of the world, and the Gospel and the ordinances of it should be administered so long, and there should be Gospel ministers till that time; Christ's sense is, that he would grant his presence to them, his immediate disciples, and to all that should succeed them in future generations, to the end of time: and which is to be understood not of his corporeal presence, which they should not have till then, but of his spiritual presence; and that he would be with them, in a spiritual sense, to assist them in their work, to comfort them under all discouragements, to supply them with his grace, and to protect them from all enemies, and preserve from all evils; which is a great encouragement both to administer the word and ordinances, and attend on them.


Link to John Gill commentary
Matthew 28:20 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Turning to Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 28:

I am with you to the end of the world, not with your persons, they died quickly, but, First, With you and your writings. There is a divine power going along with the scripture of the New Testament, not only preserving them in being, but producing strange effects by them, which will continue to the end of time. Secondly, With you and your successors; with you and all the ministers of the gospel in the several ages of the church; with all to whom this commission extends, with all who, being duly called and sent, thus baptize and thus teach. When the end of the world is come, and the kingdom delivered up to God, even the Father, there will then be no further need of ministers and their ministration; but till then they shall continue, and the great intentions of the institution shall be answered.


Link to Matthew Henry commentary
Matthew 28 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
 
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Itisfinished,

Just take a look at another verse from the Gospel. According to Matthew, the final words of Jesus before He ascended into heaven were "I am with you always, to the very end of the age." The "end of the age" means the end of the world, so Jesus promises to be with believers until the Second Coming, until the Final Judgment. Jesus promises to be with Christians until the world ends, not until the church is removed from the world.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
--Matthew 28:10-20 NIV

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
--Matthew 28:19-20 KJV

Commentators are quite clear on what this means. It means the Jesus Christ with be with the church and with all believers until the Final Judgment.

John Gill Commentary on Matthew 28:20

and lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world:
meaning, not merely to the end of their lives, which would be the end of the world to them; nor to the end of the Jewish world, or state, which was not a great way off, though this is sometimes the sense of this phrase; but to the end of the world to come, the Gospel church state, which now took place; or to the end of the present world, the universe: not that the apostles should live to the end of it; but that whereas Christ would have a church and people to the end of the world, and the Gospel and the ordinances of it should be administered so long, and there should be Gospel ministers till that time; Christ's sense is, that he would grant his presence to them, his immediate disciples, and to all that should succeed them in future generations, to the end of time: and which is to be understood not of his corporeal presence, which they should not have till then, but of his spiritual presence; and that he would be with them, in a spiritual sense, to assist them in their work, to comfort them under all discouragements, to supply them with his grace, and to protect them from all enemies, and preserve from all evils; which is a great encouragement both to administer the word and ordinances, and attend on them.


Link to John Gill commentary
Matthew 28:20 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Turning to Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 28:

I am with you to the end of the world, not with your persons, they died quickly, but, First, With you and your writings. There is a divine power going along with the scripture of the New Testament, not only preserving them in being, but producing strange effects by them, which will continue to the end of time. Secondly, With you and your successors; with you and all the ministers of the gospel in the several ages of the church; with all to whom this commission extends, with all who, being duly called and sent, thus baptize and thus teach. When the end of the world is come, and the kingdom delivered up to God, even the Father, there will then be no further need of ministers and their ministration; but till then they shall continue, and the great intentions of the institution shall be answered.


Link to Matthew Henry commentary
Matthew 28 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
It was never a question where Jesus would be.
 
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Dale

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It was never a question where Jesus would be.


Really? Dispensationalists/Rapturists are quite clear that there will be Christians after the Rapture. As soon as the Rapture happens, some of the people who missed it will realize they were wrong and become Christians. The Dispensationalists are adamant that there is no church during this period, that is, there are Christians but God will not recognize them as a church. I have also been told that the Holy Spirit is absent, or at least, the Holy Spirit will not be with post-Rapture Christians.

All this completely contradicts what Revelation tells us about great saints coming out of the Tribulation. I did a thread on this once, and got nothing but flak for pointing this out.
 
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Really? Dispensationalists/Rapturists are quite clear that there will be Christians after the Rapture. As soon as the Rapture happens, some of the people who missed it will realize they were wrong and become Christians. The Dispensationalists are adamant that there is no church during this period, that is, there are Christians but God will not recognize them as a church. I have also been told that the Holy Spirit is absent, or at least, the Holy Spirit will not be with post-Rapture Christians.

All this completely contradicts what Revelation tells us about great saints coming out of the Tribulation. I did a thread on this once, and got nothing but flak for pointing this out.

Yes there will absolutely be multitudes of individuals who will accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour during the 7 year tribulation .
But , that is after the Church is taken away as well as The Holy Spirit.
The great saints coming out of the tribulation are the ones who received Christ after the rapture.
Many will die and suffer for Christ .
Those that die will be resurrected at The Second Coming of Christ and the OT saints as well before the Millenial reign of Jesus Christ.

It will be glorious!!!
I cannot wait for that glorious day.
 
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