Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

Dave L

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I disagree with you. But, I understand why you answered the way you did.
People do not make choices unless they believe what they choose exists. God saved you by grace and choosing to believe was your first act of faith. Normally in scripture, the first choice is baptism and repentance.
 
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Dave L

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Dave, God did not hate Essau... Jacob didn't hate Leah... this is the problem with reading and thinking only in American modern English! The idea that God HATES anyone stands against the character of God... it profanes His name. Romans 9:13 is an IDIOMATIC phrase well know to any Israelite in the first century... it means, "love less."

God so loved the world that He sent His only son to die for them but He really hates the sinners Christ was dying for??? We are to love neighbor but God can hate them? We are to love even our enemy but God can hate them? That isn't consistent with Scripture... but keep trying. :sigh:
Psalm 5:5 says: "The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity"

Psalm 11:5 says: "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates"

Jeremiah 12:8 says: "My inheritance has become to Me like a lion in the forest; she has roared (sinned) against Me; therefore I have come to hate her"

Hosea 9:15 says:" All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed I came to hate them there, because of the wickedness of their deeds";

Malachi 1:3 says: "I hated Esau and destroyed his mountains"

Ray Shaw
 
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BNR32FAN

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“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8)

Peter is speaking of the fate of those who disobey God’s Word and don’t believe. God has foreseen their disobedience and determined their fate. He did not determine their disobedience.
 
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redleghunter

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Yup being all knowing He chose those who chose to believe and endure to the end.
Where does the text give that indication? That would put man sovereign in salvation. Jesus as a beggar hat in hand waiting for someone to choose Him.
 
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Dave L

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Peter is speaking of the fate of those who disobey God’s Word and don’t believe. God has foreseen their disobedience and determined their fate. He did not determine their disobedience.
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
 
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Ken Rank

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I don't agree with all you said, but I appreciate what you shared. I too look at Noah, Abram/Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Job, Elijah, Daniel.....etc...even John the Baptist and the Apostles. If we are 100% depraved, as some claim, none of them could have made a decision to follow God without being born again. Like you said, that just doesn't add up to what Scripture says.

At the same time though, none of us get out of the crib and have a walking/talking relationship with God from the start like Adam and Eve had. That is kind of what I think of as spiritually alive. Because I have a relationship with Him now, nobody is able to talk me out of it. But, before I did....well let's just say there is a big difference between then and now.

As far as what we did to our bodies: I have seen people who were healed from past sins--like drug use--because they came to realize that "all things are created new" and God healed them through the prayer of faith.

I think of
I doubt we are really far off. Just remember, God made a covenant with Israel, called them "My people." He called them, "Holy." That not only isn't spiritually dead, it denotes a relationship. To what degree? Ah... I will let somebody else worry about that. :) Blessings.
 
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Ken Rank

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Psalm 5:5 says: "The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity"

Psalm 11:5 says: "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates"

Jeremiah 12:8 says: "My inheritance has become to Me like a lion in the forest; she has roared (sinned) against Me; therefore I have come to hate her"

Hosea 9:15 says:" All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed I came to hate them there, because of the wickedness of their deeds";

Malachi 1:3 says: "I hated Esau and destroyed his mountains"

Ray Shaw
OK... so you are pitting Scripture against Scripture and then choosing sides. You will have to deal with this one day... apparently not today.
 
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redleghunter

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So you're saying that some people are damned to hell without any possibility of salvation, and that God preordained it? I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.
Paradoxically it is the "many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

Something Charles H. Spurgeon opined on. He was Calvinist but always claimed to be a Biblicist first. Here's a couple of quotes to consider:

"That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring." (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)

"Men who are morbidly anxious to possess a self-consistent creed, a creed which will put together and form a square like a Chinese puzzle, are very apt to narrow their souls. Those who will only believe what they can reconcile will necessarily disbelieve much of divine revelation. Those who receive by faith anything which they find in the Bible will receive two things, twenty things, ay, or twenty thousand things, though they cannot construct a theory which harmonizes them all." ("Faith," Sword and Trowel, 1872)

On 1 Timothy 2:3-6 Spurgeon said thus:

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I think not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they that is, ‘some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ If he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘All sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. ... My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God.(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 26: 49-52)

In an early sermon on “Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility” Spurgeon introduced his subject this way (a prior extension to the first quote above):

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once...Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there is no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free to be responsible, I am driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestinates, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is the fault of our weak judgment...it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. (New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4, 337).

In another sermon, Spurgeon touches on God's Sovereignty and human will. But notice this is flavored with Luther's Bondage of the Will which we can find in Romans 6:

I believe in predestination, yea, even in its very jots and tittles. I believe that the path of a single grain of dust in the March wind is ordained and settled by a decree which cannot be violated; that every word and thought of man, every flittering of a sparrow’s wing, every flight of a fly...that everything, in fact is foreknown and foreordained. But I do equally believe in the free agency of man, that man acts as he wills, especially in moral operations — choosing the evil with a will that is unbiased by anything that comes from God, biased only by his own depravity of heart and the perverseness of his habits; choosing the right too, with perfect freedom, though sacredly guided and led by the Holy Spirit...I believe that man is as accountable as if there were no destiny whatever...Where these two truths meet I do not know, nor do I want to know. They do not puzzle me, since I have given up my mind to believing them both.(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 15, 458).


Romans 6: ESV
15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,c you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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redleghunter

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He must call us first. But even then we're not forced to answer.
Yes, correct and as Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen" from the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22.
 
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aiki

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Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

We can choose God once we have heard the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation) and understand there is a choice to be made. One cannot make a choice about which one is ignorant. Being "dead" spiritually does not mean one cannot recognize, in the light of the Gospel, that one is a sinner in need of a Saviour. This is where Calvinists go seriously wrong: They assume that "dead" means not only that a sinner has no spiritual life but that he cannot even recognize that this is so. And this is why Calvinists think salvation must be a monergistic work of God. If the Calvinist is right in this, then a man is saved in order to recognize that he needs to be saved. This is like a person dying of cancer being told of a cure but being unable to respond to their need for the cure until they have first been cured. Does this make a lot of sense to you? It doesn't to me. But this is what prevenient grace amounts to as far as I can see.

The Gospel and the persuading, convicting and illuminating (though, not preveniently regenerating) work of the Spirit are entirely sufficient to enable a sinner to choose the Saviour. This is why Paul writes, "...we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20) Why would Paul use the word "implore" if God unilaterally regenerates people so that they can recognize that they need to be regenerated? If salvation is entirely a monergistic work of God, what purpose is there in imploring anyone to be saved? Under Calvinism, God will save those who are His whether or not they desire to be saved, so imploring a person to be saved is quite pointless. And yet, Paul, obviously, thought he did need to implore people to be saved. This strongly suggests to me that Paul believed the individual was response-able; they were able to choose to be saved. One does not need to implore a person to do something one knows they will inevitably be made to do - or not do.

www.soteriology101.com
 
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Dave L

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This goes back to our original discussion. Only believers will choose to believe, thinking it is a condition for salvation. Had you not believed, you would not have chose to believe.
If people didn't already believe, they would not choose to believe.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We can choose God once we have heard the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation) and understand there is a choice to be made. One cannot make a choice about which one is ignorant. Being "dead" spiritually does not mean one cannot recognize, in the light of the Gospel, that one is a sinner in need of a Saviour. This is where Calvinists go seriously wrong: They assume that "dead" means not only that a sinner has no spiritual life but that he cannot even recognize that this is so. And this is why Calvinists think salvation must be a monergistic work of God. If the Calvinist is right in this, then a man is saved in order to recognize that he needs to be saved. This is like a person dying of cancer being told of a cure but being unable to respond to their need for the cure until they have first been cured. Does this make a lot of sense to you? It doesn't to me. But this is what prevenient grace amounts to as far as I can see.

The Gospel and the persuading, convicting and illuminating (though, not preveniently regenerating) work of the Spirit are entirely sufficient to enable a sinner to choose the Saviour. This is why Paul writes, "...we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20) Why would Paul use the word "implore" if God unilaterally regenerates people so that they can recognize that they need to be regenerated? If salvation is entirely a monergistic work of God, what purpose is there in imploring anyone to be saved? Under Calvinism, God will save those who are His whether or not His own desire to be saved, so imploring a person to be saved is quite pointless. And yet, Paul, obviously, thought he did need to implore people to be saved. This strongly suggests to me that Paul believed the individual was response-able; they were able to choose to be saved. One does not need to implore a person to do something they will inevitably be made to do - or not do.

www.soteriology101.com

Amen for God so loved the world that He sent more than half of it to the lake of fire to burn for all eternity. That makes a lot of sense.
 
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Dave L

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Amen for God so loved the world that He sent more than half of it to the lake of fire to burn for all eternity. That makes a lot of sense.
World = Jews and gentiles, not each and every person including the Canaanites and Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
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Dave L

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OK... so you are pitting Scripture against Scripture and then choosing sides. You will have to deal with this one day... apparently not today.
If scripture says God hates sinners, and you say he does not, who are we to believe?
 
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BNR32FAN

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We can choose God once we have heard the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation) and understand there is a choice to be made. One cannot make a choice about which one is ignorant. Being "dead" spiritually does not mean one cannot recognize, in the light of the Gospel, that one is a sinner in need of a Saviour. This is where Calvinists go seriously wrong: They assume that "dead" means not only that a sinner has no spiritual life but that he cannot even recognize that this is so. And this is why Calvinists think salvation must be a monergistic work of God. If the Calvinist is right in this, then a man is saved in order to recognize that he needs to be saved. This is like a person dying of cancer being told of a cure but being unable to respond to their need for the cure until they have first been cured. Does this make a lot of sense to you? It doesn't to me. But this is what prevenient grace amounts to as far as I can see.

The Gospel and the persuading, convicting and illuminating (though, not preveniently regenerating) work of the Spirit are entirely sufficient to enable a sinner to choose the Saviour. This is why Paul writes, "...we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20) Why would Paul use the word "implore" if God unilaterally regenerates people so that they can recognize that they need to be regenerated? If salvation is entirely a monergistic work of God, what purpose is there in imploring anyone to be saved? Under Calvinism, God will save those who are His whether or not His own desire to be saved, so imploring a person to be saved is quite pointless. And yet, Paul, obviously, thought he did need to implore people to be saved. This strongly suggests to me that Paul believed the individual was response-able; they were able to choose to be saved. One does not need to implore a person to do something they will inevitably be made to do - or not do.

www.soteriology101.com

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬

So God is not wishing that He didn’t choose everyone to be saved? Does He wish that He chose everyone?
 
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aiki

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“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬

Here's another point to consider in this verse: If God sovereignly decrees a person will be saved and monergistically acts to fulfill this decree, what difference does it make how longsuffering God is? If God must wait on a person to be saved, under Calvinism, it is because He has not yet forced them to be saved. Peter's words here, then, become a bit...peculiar. He seems to be implying that God is doing something gracious in waiting on a person to come to repentance, but that waiting is a consequence of God's sovereign decree so how, then, is it a demonstration of God's gracious patience? God, essentially, is showing patience to Himself.
 
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Dave L

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Here's another point to consider in this verse: If God sovereignly decrees a person will be saved and monergistically acts to fulfill this decree, what difference does it make how longsuffering God is? If God must wait on a person to be saved, under Calvinism, it is because He has not yet forced them to be saved. Peter's words here, then, become a bit...peculiar. He seems to be implying that God is doing something gracious in waiting on a person to come to repentance, but that waiting is a consequence of God's sovereign decree so how, then, is it a demonstration of God's gracious patience? God, essentially, is showing patience to Himself.
God saves all who want to be saved. He doesn't save any who do not want salvation and love their sins more than they do him.
 
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