Anytime Rapture View versus the rest.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2018

keras said:
None of your scriptures above say that God intends to take His people away from the earth to heaven.

Honestly, I do not know the real reason behind why you do not see the plain meaning of what these pieces of Scripture say, but let's read it...

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My Commentary on:
1st Thessalonians 4:16-18:

"For the Lord himself [Jesus] shall descend from heaven [where is Jesus coming from? Heaven] with a shout [This shout is the voice of Jesus but this is not the voice of Jesus spoken later at the final resurrection in John 5:25-29 because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 that this event is a new revealed mystery], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God [This is the archangel and this is trumpet of salvation and it is not the seventh angel and the trumpet of judgment in Revelation 11:15-18; For Jesus does not even descend until Revelation 19:11; In fact, the only other appearance of the word "archangel" is in Jude 1:9 where he contends with the enemy in taking of Mose's body - Which could be loosely suggestive of the taking of Christ's body at the Rapture]: and the dead in Christ shall rise first [Those souls who died and are in Abraham's Bosom will rise first - See Luke 16:19-31; Question: Where are they rising to?]: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [This sounds like a Rapture to me; Call it whatever you like, but it says that we believers who are alive and remain on this Earth will be caught up, i.e. "taken up" together as a body of believers in the clouds for what purpose? See the next words in the passage.], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord [We believers meet the Lord in the air. That is step 1. Step 2 is: So shall we ever be with the Lord.] Wherefore comfort one another with these words." [Note: These are words of comfort. This taking up into the clouds to meet the Lord with other believers and being forever with Him are comforting words because what follows is not going to be good, i.e. God's Wrath. For we are not appointed unto wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9].

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

My Commentary on:
1st Corinthians 15:51-53:

Behold, I shew you a mystery [This is a mystery that was not revealed prior to Paul; There are only hints or clues in parables to this "mystery" with us not knowing the full meaning until Paul gives us enlightenment here. This would not be an event clearly explained plainly (in non-parabolic form) in the open by Jesus.]; We shall not all sleep [This ties in with what Paul writes later in Thessalonians 4:16 about how "the dead in Christ will rise first"], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [This is called the "Last Trump" with us being changed and this is not the seventh angel sounding the final trumpet of judgment that brings wrath in Revelation 11:15-18 because they do not sound like similar events; "We shall be changed;" Meaning, the dead will not sleep but they will be changed spiritually, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye: Meaning, this change will happen super quick]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality ["But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

The phrase "sons of God" is a reference to angels in the Old Testament. While the New Testament primarily uses the phrase "sons of God" in reference to believers. In this case in John 1:12, it is talking about angels. For the Lord gave us power to become angels (by the power of His resurrection in the Rapture) to those who believe on his name. Angels are immortal.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

So immortality is not exclusive to just our final state in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection. We will have new immortal spirit bodies like that of angels. Angels are spiritual beings. Angels have spirit bodies. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (See 1 Corinthians 15:44).].

While these commentaries are probably not going to change your mind in any way, it will show other readers who simply desire to read and believe the text plainly for themselves in what it says.

In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.

keras · Oct 9, 2018

I prefer to keep my posts short.
You may be surprised to know that very few people here would bother to read your post above.
I did, but just to see how confused and fixated you are on being taken to heaven. Something that Jesus said 5 times, was impossible.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 - this prophecy of Paul's will happen when Jesus Returns. He does not go back to heaven, but He destroys the armies at Armageddon, chains up Satan and collects His faithful people to be His priests and rulers for the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 - is all about the end of God's decreed 7000 years for mankind. Proved by 1 Cor 15:24, when Jesus hands back the Kingdom to God.
There will be people alive at that time and when the Book of Life is opened and their names are found in it, they will be instantly transformed into immortality. They will never die.

But all the living and all the dead since Adam will stand before the Great White Throne in Judgement. Anyone dead or alive, whose name is not found in the Book of Life, will be consigned to the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

May the Truth of the Prophetic Word shine upon you today.

keras · Oct 9, 2018

Douggg said:
Please open another thread and present what you wrote on Daniel 12. I would like to see how you handled that chapter. For example what nation is this in the first verse? And who is the children of thy people?

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniels people are Jews.
They have had conquest and dispersion twice; Babylon and Roman. But Ezekiel 20:14 says that they will face the great Sword of Slaughter three times. Daniel 12:1-3 refers to the final time.
So; as many other prophesies tell us, the House of Judah will be Judged and punished for their sins and only those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will survive.

They will rejoin with their Christian brethren and all God's faithful Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-6

Bible Highlighter · Oct 9, 2018

keras said:
You may be surprised to know that very few people here would bother to read your post above.

Well, walls of texts in each post is one thing, but I do not believe I have done so. Besides, this is not my first rodeo in Christian discussions before. Almost 19,000 posts here so far. 10,000 on another, and even more on another one. There were plenty of times people have read my long posts before (Including my commentaries on the Bible). So what you say is not exactly true. Yes, it is true more people will read shorter posts, but I am not looking to catch Christian readers with short attention spans.

You said:
I did, but just to see how confused and fixated you are on being taken to heaven. Something that Jesus said 5 times, was impossible.

Let me guess. John 3:13, and 1 Corinthians 15:50 are two of them?
I am very familiar with these verses and talked about them before.

The Bible talks about believers in Heaven.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." (Revelation 4:2) (Revelation 4:4).

God goes to prepare a place for us so that we may be where He is.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:3).

There are also treasures we can store up in Heaven, too.

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:" (Matthew 6:20).

What good is treasure in Heaven if you cannot go there?

You said:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 - this prophecy of Paul's will happen when Jesus Returns. He does not go back to heaven, but He destroys the armies at Armageddon, chains up Satan and collects His faithful people to be His priests and rulers for the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 - is all about the end of God's decreed 7000 years for mankind. Proved by 1 Cor 15:24, when Jesus hands back the Kingdom to God.
There will be people alive at that time and when the Book of Life is opened and their names are found in it, they will be instantly transformed into immortality. They will never die.

But all the living and all the dead since Adam will stand before the Great White Throne in Judgement. Anyone dead or alive, whose name is not found in the Book of Life, will be consigned to the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

The Post Trib Position does not work because it has to ignore the Wrath of God being poured out with the Vial or Bowl Judgments; For 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says we are delivered from the Wrath to come. This view also does not work because the dead in Christ are already in Heaven waiting to follow Christ into battle, too (Revelation 19:1, Revelation 19:11, Revelation 19:14). For one, there is no rising up of the dead mentioned in the Olivet discourse or Revelation at Christ's Second Coming. Second, the saints are already in Heaven way back at the fifth seal (Revelation 6:9), and they did not rise up yet again for the Second Coming of Christ. These dead in Christ have been in Heaven with God for quite some time already. Then there is the problem of ignoring Imminency and the Blessed Hope that Paul was looking for, as well (Among many other problems that a Post Trib View presents).

You said:
May the Truth of the Prophetic Word shine upon you today.

May God's love shine upon you this day.

Douggg · Oct 9, 2018

keras said:
Daniels people are Jews

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

Daniel's people are Israel.

Who is the nation in this verse? It is plainly talking about the nation of "Israel", Daniel's people.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

keras · Oct 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The Bible talks about believers in Heaven.

A very few people do seem to have gone to heaven, John did, but just to receive Revelation.
There is nowhere in the Bible where it is said there will be a general removal of people to heaven.

Jason0047 said:
What good is treasure in Heaven if you cannot go there?

Our 'treasure' is kept in heaven. Jesus brings His rewards for our faith and good deeds with Him at His Return. Matthew 16:27

Jason0047 said:
The Post Trib Position does not work because it has to ignore the Wrath of God being poured out with the Vial or Bowl Judgments; For 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says we are delivered from the Wrath to come

Firstly, I am not a post-trib rapture [to heaven] believer. What happens at the Return of Jesus, is a gathering to where He is, in the clouds, then Jerusalem, As Matthew 24:30-31 plainly states.

There are some verses that say we are delivered from God's wrath, but more that say we must stand firm in our faith until the end. So if you believe that you will be removed from any wrath or disaster to come, then how do you resolve the anomaly?
I believe 'deliverance' means protection, not removal and this is supported by many scriptures. Zephaniah 2:3, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 31:23-24, 1 Corinthians 10:13

keras · Oct 10, 2018

Douggg said:
Daniel's people are Israel.

Daniel was a Jew, from the House of Judah, living in Jerusalem when the Babylonians conquered Judah. Daniel 1:1-2
Daniel 9:20; did pray for all of the Israelites, but his people are Jews and only those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be saved. Just a remnant as Paul confirms in Romans 9:27 There is no general redemption of the House of Judah.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2018

keras said:
Daniel was a Jew, from the House of Judah, living in Jerusalem when the Babylonians conquered Judah. Daniel 1:1-2
Daniel 9:20; did pray for all of the Israelites, but his people are Jews and only those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be saved.

Daniel was a Jew and his people were Israel. In verse 7 below: "men of Judah, AND to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, AND unto all Israel" .

When Daniel was confessing the sins of his people in Daniel 9, he said...

Daniel 9:
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel 9:20

Click to expand...

; did pray for all of the Israelites, but his people are Jews and only those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be saved.

Daniel's people are Israel. It says so right in the text. What it says in Daniel 12 is...

Daniel 12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
___________________________________________________________________

Keras, when I have been wrong in the past about something in bible prophecy, like that Gog/Magog happens in the middle of the seven years (wrong), I didn't continue to stonewall my position. What I did I corrected my position and moved forward.

iamlamad · Oct 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Honestly, I do not know the real reason behind why you do not see the plain meaning of what these pieces of Scripture say, but let's read it...

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

My Commentary on:
1st Thessalonians 4:16-18:

"For the Lord himself [Jesus] shall descend from heaven [where is Jesus coming from? Heaven] with a shout [This shout is the voice of Jesus but this is not the voice of Jesus spoken later at the final resurrection in John 5:25-29 because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 that this event is a new revealed mystery], with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God [This is the archangel and this is trumpet of salvation and it is not the seventh angel and the trumpet of judgment in Revelation 11:15-18; For Jesus does not even descend until Revelation 19:11; In fact, the only other appearance of the word "archangel" is in Jude 1:9 where he contends with the enemy in taking of Mose's body - Which could be loosely suggestive of the taking of Christ's body at the Rapture]: and the dead in Christ shall rise first [Those souls who died and are in Abraham's Bosom will rise first - See Luke 16:19-31; Question: Where are they rising to?]: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [This sounds like a Rapture to me; Call it whatever you like, but it says that we believers who are alive and remain on this Earth will be caught up, i.e. "taken up" together as a body of believers in the clouds for what purpose? See the next words in the passage.], to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord [We believers meet the Lord in the air. That is step 1. Step 2 is: So shall we ever be with the Lord.] Wherefore comfort one another with these words." [Note: These are words of comfort. This taking up into the clouds to meet the Lord with other believers and being forever with Him are comforting words because what follows is not going to be good, i.e. God's Wrath. For we are not appointed unto wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9].

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

My Commentary on:
1st Corinthians 15:51-53:

Behold, I shew you a mystery [This is a mystery that was not revealed prior to Paul; There are only hints or clues in parables to this "mystery" with us not knowing the full meaning until Paul gives us enlightenment here. This would not be an event clearly explained plainly (in non-parabolic form) in the open by Jesus.]; We shall not all sleep [This ties in with what Paul writes later in Thessalonians 4:16 about how "the dead in Christ will rise first"], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [This is called the "Last Trump" with us being changed and this is not the seventh angel sounding the final trumpet of judgment that brings wrath in Revelation 11:15-18 because they do not sound like similar events; "We shall be changed;" Meaning, the dead will not sleep but they will be changed spiritually, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye: Meaning, this change will happen super quick]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality ["But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

The phrase "sons of God" is a reference to angels in the Old Testament. While the New Testament primarily uses the phrase "sons of God" in reference to believers. In this case in John 1:12, it is talking about angels. For the Lord gave us power to become angels (by the power of His resurrection in the Rapture) to those who believe on his name. Angels are immortal.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

So immortality is not exclusive to just our final state in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection. We will have new immortal spirit bodies like that of angels. Angels are spiritual beings. Angels have spirit bodies. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (See 1 Corinthians 15:44).].

While these commentaries are probably not going to change your mind in any way, it will show other readers who simply desire to read and believe the text plainly for themselves in what it says.

In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.

This was very well done, Jason!

iamlamad · Oct 10, 2018

Douggg said:
Anytime Rapture View is the rapture view I hold. The term was adapted by me ,taken from Luke 21:34-36, which contains the word "anytime".

The Anytime Rapture View is that the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians15-18 takes place anytime between now (as you are reading this) and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The rapture, therefore, could be pre-70th week. Or it may be after the 70th week begins. But it is not after Antichrist makes his move - somewhere in the middle part of the 7 years. We can't fix an exact day for his move.

The Anytime Rapture View fits -
1. Luke 21:34-46, the escape from the Day of the Lord beginning like a thief in the night.
2. At a time we think not.
3. The promise to the church of Philadelphia, to be kept from the world-wide time of testing.
4. Not appointed to wrath; neither the wrath of God, nor the wrath of Satan during the time, times, half time.
5. allows for the possibility for the church to be here during the first part of the 7 years, when there will be a falling away from Christianity, as the Antichrist (prior to his revealing to be the man of sin act) will be believed by the Jews and the world to be messiah. Yet, them of the church of Philadelphia will not deny Jesus's name.

______________________________________________________________________

The rest:

Pre-trib - is actually a misnomer for pre-70th week. Which it may happen that way, but it is not for certain. Because, the first half of the 7 years, most of it, the world will be saying peace and safety - a indicator of the times and seasons, for the rapture to take place. It will not be tribulation during that "perceived" messianic age.

The pre-trib rapture mandates that the rapture take place before the confirming of the covenant because in pre-trib thinking that is when the Antichrist is revealed. But that is a misreading of 2Thessalonians2:4. It is not revealing the person as the Antichrist - but the man of sin, which actually ends his time as the Antichrist... the King of Israel, illegitimate....and ends the peace and safety illusion.

Still, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Pre-wrath - pre-wrath brackets the time rapture takes place. To be before the wrath of God (as defined by prewathers) at the end of the great tribulation, when the sun and moon grow dark. But after the church has entered the great tribulation. Which is the major flaw of the pre-wrath view.

That particular views fails on that peace and safety will not be the thinking after the great tribulation begins. The seven years begin with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, made the King of Israel, illegitimate. Peace and safety will be the thinking during that time, the early years of the 70th week.

But once he makes his move to claim to have achieved God-hood, that triggers the Day of the Lord beginning. End of peace and safety.

And in the second seal, peace is taken from the earth. So the world is not saying peace and safety during the great tribulation as proponents to the Pre-wrath view, like Robert Van Kampen, claim. You Tube video - The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 1 of 3 Robert Van Kampen

Post-Trib - mandates that the church go through the great tribulation, to be raptured at Jesus's Return.

This view is untenable because it exposes the church to the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. And fails on the Luke 21:34-36 escape of that time.

Also them in Jerusalem, Jews, at the end of the great tribulation will have become Christians - are not raptured, but escape through a valley created by Jesus when he splits the Mt. of Olives in half.

There is a problem with this view: Paul shows us that HIS gathering or rapture will come a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord - which John shows us is at the 6th seal.

The 70th week begins at the 7th seal, so in truth, the rapture is pretrib.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2018

iamlamad said:
There is a problem with this view: Paul shows us that HIS gathering or rapture will come a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord - which John shows us is at the 6th seal.

The 70th week begins at the 7th seal, so in truth, the rapture is pretrib.

The sixth seal is within the Day of the Lord, but it is not the start. You have to go to 2thessalonians2:4 for the start of the Day of the Lord.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 10, 2018

iamlamad said:
This was very well done, Jason!

Thank you;
May God bless you this fine day.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 10, 2018

keras said:
A very few people do seem to have gone to heaven, John did, but just to receive Revelation.
There is nowhere in the Bible where it is said there will be a general removal of people to heaven.

Our 'treasure' is kept in heaven. Jesus brings His rewards for our faith and good deeds with Him at His Return. Matthew 16:27

Firstly, I am not a post-trib rapture [to heaven] believer. What happens at the Return of Jesus, is a gathering to where He is, in the clouds, then Jerusalem, As Matthew 24:30-31 plainly states.

There are some verses that say we are delivered from God's wrath, but more that say we must stand firm in our faith until the end. So if you believe that you will be removed from any wrath or disaster to come, then how do you resolve the anomaly?
I believe 'deliverance' means protection, not removal and this is supported by many scriptures. Zephaniah 2:3, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 31:23-24, 1 Corinthians 10:13

One truth revealed in Scripture is not nullified by the frequency of many other verses. Take for example the Trinity. There is only one verse that clearly speaks of the Trinity point blank and that is 1 John 5:7, that says: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (Note: Many people falsely think 1 John 5:7 should not be in their Bible but it is good or helpful that it is there; However, this kind of thinking to me is wrong because if a man was marooned on an island (who later came to the faith on that island through a Bible), he would be more likely to know about the Trinity if the correct full version of 1 John 5:7 was in his Bible).

I can see to an extent how your view sort of works (looking at it from your perspective), but it fails because you have to ignore that believers are not appointed unto Wrath and you have to ignore Jesus's words that says we can pray so as to escape all these things (i.e. the whole of the bad things that will come to pass in the Olivet Discourse). You have to ignore verses on Imminency, looking for that blessed hope, make exceptions on verses on people going to Heaven to make your view fit, etc. You have to realize that Christians were persecuted in the past, they are persecuted today, and always will be. But that does not mean they will go through the time of Wrath because Scripture says they will not go through that. Scripture even says that they are to look up during the midpoint of the Tribulation because their redemption draws near. Why? Because they are not appointed unto Wrath.

When his disciples ask where they are being taken and Jesus says where the carcass is, the eagles will be gathered together he is not referring to an immediate transfer to the fight; Otherwise, why would the Lord bother to take them up? Couldn't God send down an angel? It doesn't make sense for them to go up just to come back down again immediately unless they were taken out of the way so as not to go through the time of Wrath (Which is really really really really really really really a bad time that is for unbelievers).

The eagles (believers) who are taken up into heaven are to eventually eat (gain victory, not actual cannibalism) the carcass (those who will not repent of their wickedness) to eventually follow Christ in Him fighting the battle. They need to prepare for following Christ into battle and the things we shortly hear right before the battle does not make sense if they are just hovering up in the air or the clouds somewhere for just a short time. They actually will be in Heaven for a time with the ultimate destination of following Christ into battle (Because they are not appointed unto Wrath) .

I know what I have said here is not going to convince you. You believe you need to be persecuted. I would say go to a country where Christians are being persecuted right now if you want to be persecuted. You do not need to go through the Tribulation in order to do that. I say what I do here so as to help other believers to search out the Scriptures and weigh the evidence for themselves in coming to an honest verdict for the truth. So I am sorry. I just do not see your view as being what the Bible teaches. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 are supposed to be words of comfort. Your version of the story offers no comfort because they have to go through Wrath and then immediately fight.

iamlamad · Oct 10, 2018

Douggg said:
The sixth seal is within the Day of the Lord, but it is not the start. You have to go to 2thessalonians2:4 for the start of the Day of the Lord.

I disagree. Pauls assertion is that when one sees the man of sin enter the temple, that is proof they are IN the Day of the Lord - that it had previously started.

Douggg · Oct 10, 2018

iamlamad said:
I disagree. Pauls assertion is that when one sees the man of sin enter the temple, that is proof they are IN the Day of the Lord - that it had previously started.

No, you got it mixed up or the translation you are reading from does. The day of the Lord does not come until the man of sin is revealed by him committing the act. That act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Bible Highlighter · Oct 10, 2018

* Pre-Trib Rapture takes place (Which is a new mystery revealed by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51), and it is the call to marriage to Christ (Matthew 25:10)).

* 1st seal.
* 2nd seal.
* 3rd seal.

* Midpoint of Tribulation
(The antichrist and his forces seizes control of the Jewish temple and he desecrates it, i.e. the Abomination of Desolations).
To see highlighted verses on why this is the Midpoint of the Tribulation click on the following spoiler button:

The Anti-Christ Sets Up the Abomination of Desolation in the Jewish Temple:

We see that the abomination of desolation take place in the midst (middle) of the week (i.e. the 70th week or year year Tribulation) followed by great tribulation:
(Also, the time of the Tribulation, the days shall be shortened, too - Which is the 1st 3 ½ years of the Tribulation).

• Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

• Mark 13:14-20

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

• Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

• Daniel 11:31a NIV

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.

• Daniel 12:11a NLT and Daniel 12:11b NLT

From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.

• Revelation 11:2 NLT

The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Important Note:

If you took the 7 year tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) and you cut this 7 years in half, you get either: 3 ½ years, or 42 months, and or 1,290 days. See how the Bible all lines up perfectly?
...

* 4th seal - Death: Saints are martyred by antichrist.

* 5th seal - The saints who were just recently killed or martyred for their faith cry out unto God for vengeance by what the antichrist has done unto them.

Note: The remaining resistance of believers who were not captured and executed by the antichrist (and or those saints who are imprisoned by the antichrist who have yet to still be slaughtered) are told to look up at this point (looking to the signs in Heaven - the blood moon, no stars, a black sky) because their redemption draws near (See Luke 21:28 cf. Luke 21:25).

* Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place (Which is part of the focus in the Olivet discourse). (Christians are still not appointed unto Wrath, so they will be taken up before God brings forth His Wrath upon the world) (This Rapture is the call to invite more in after the Wedding (See Luke 12:36 in the KJV here (See "Important Note 3" below).

* 6th seal - Day of Wrath (God's response or answer to the saints' call to being martyred by the antichrist in the breaking of the 5th seal).

* 7th seal.

---------------------------------
Important Note 1:
Some points to consider about the sixth seal:

1. The Day of the Lord is called the Day of Wrath (See Zephaniah 1:14-15).
2. The 6th seal is said to be a Day of Wrath (See Reading all of Revelation 6:12-17: Compare Revelation 6:12 with Revelation 6:17).
3. The 6th seal has the sun turning dark, and a blood moon (Revelation 6:12-13).
4. The Day of the Lord has the sun turning dark, and a blood moon (Acts of the Apostles 2:20) (Joel 2:31).

Important Note 2:

We are told to watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy so as to escape all these end times things that are mentioned in the Olivet discourse.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (See Luke 21:36).

What would all these things include that Jesus just talked about?

Luke 21:
10 "Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

2nd seal: Wars (Peace taken from the Earth) (See Revelation 6:3-4). This lines up with nation rising against nation in Luke 21:10.

3rd seal: Famine (Revelation 6:5-6) This lines up with the famine mentioned in Luke 21:11.

Jesus said we can watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21:36).

Important Note 3:

In regards to Luke 12:36: The KJV rendering just says "wedding" and not a "wedding feast." The KJV has the correct rendering. Some Modern Translations mention "wedding feast" which is incorrect; Luke 12:36 is just in reference to the wedding itself. For the Marriage supper of the Lamb is the 2nd Coming of Christ destroying the nations of the world. To explain this would take another post with Scripture.

keras · Oct 10, 2018

Douggg said:
Daniel's people are Israel.

You don't make the separation between the House of Judah and the House of Israel. Every Bible prophet does, in over 160 scriptures they are mentioned separately.
Douggg lumps them into one. But the great rejoining prophesied in Ezekiel 37, remains to be fulfilled, proved by how the Blessings promised have not happened yet.

When Daniel was alive, at the time of King Jehoiakim of Judah, Daniel 1:1, the house of Israel; the ten Northern tribes had been exiled by Assyria 135 years ago. They are out of the picture.

Yes, Judah was a tribe of the original Israel and it isn't wrong to call individual Judahites; Israelites. But plainly God has a separate destiny for each House.
The Archangel Michael is the great captain who stands guarding Judah. He has maintained them as a people thru many pogroms and the Holocaust, now back into the holy Land. [Part of Judah and part of the holy Land]
BUT NOW they face: a time of anguish, such has never been known.....and only those Christian Jews whose names have been Written in the Book of Life, will be saved.
A remnant, as Paul says in Romans 9:27 The rest will die; Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

The House of Israel, still scattered among the nations, is now; in the main, the Christian peoples. They are people from every race, nation and language and John sees them in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed all the holy Land. Revelation 7:9-14, Deuteronomy 32:34-43

keras · Oct 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I say what I do here so as to help other believers to search out the Scriptures and weigh the evidence for themselves in coming to an honest verdict for the truth.

Jason, you are a sincere person, doing your best to promote what you believe.
However the issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study the Bible and this belief. So you cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

You say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What you should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say; Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

iamlamad · Oct 10, 2018

Douggg said:
No, you got it mixed up or the translation you are reading from does. The day of the Lord does not come until the man of sin is revealed by him committing the act. That act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It is the tenses of the Greek words. That day shall not have arrived and be present. Anyway, those words were added by the translators.

iamlamad · Oct 10, 2018

Jason0047 said:
* Pre-Trib Rapture takes place (Which is a new mystery revealed by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51), and it is the call to marriage to Christ (Matthew 25:10)).

* 1st seal.
* 2nd seal.
* 3rd seal.

* Midpoint of Tribulation
(The antichrist and his forces seizes control of the Jewish temple and he desecrates it, i.e. the Abomination of Desolations).
To see highlighted verses on why this is the Midpoint of the Tribulation click on the following spoiler button:

The Anti-Christ Sets Up the Abomination of Desolation in the Jewish Temple:

We see that the abomination of desolation take place in the midst (middle) of the week (i.e. the 70th week or year year Tribulation) followed by great tribulation:
(Also, the time of the Tribulation, the days shall be shortened, too - Which is the 1st 3 ½ years of the Tribulation).

• Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

• Mark 13:14-20

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

• Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

• Daniel 11:31a NIV

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.

• Daniel 12:11a NLT and Daniel 12:11b NLT

From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.

• Revelation 11:2 NLT

The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Important Note:

If you took the 7 year tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) and you cut this 7 years in half, you get either: 3 ½ years, or 42 months, and or 1,290 days. See how the Bible all lines up perfectly?
...

* 4th seal - Death: Saints are martyred by antichrist.

* 5th seal - The saints who were just recently killed or martyred for their faith cry out unto God for vengeance by what the antichrist has done unto them.

Note: The remaining resistance of believers who were not captured and executed by the antichrist (and or those saints who are imprisoned by the antichrist who have yet to still be slaughtered) are told to look up at this point (looking to the signs in Heaven - the blood moon, no stars, a black sky) because their redemption draws near (See Luke 21:28 cf. Luke 21:25).

* Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place (Which is part of the focus in the Olivet discourse). (Christians are still not appointed unto Wrath, so they will be taken up before God brings forth His Wrath upon the world) (This Rapture is the call to invite more in after the Wedding (See Luke 12:36 in the KJV here (See "Important Note 3" below).

* 6th seal - Day of Wrath (God's response or answer to the saints' call to being martyred by the antichrist in the breaking of the 5th seal).

* 7th seal.

---------------------------------
Important Note 1:
Some points to consider about the sixth seal:

1. The Day of the Lord is called the Day of Wrath (See Zephaniah 1:14-15).
2. The 6th seal is said to be a Day of Wrath (See Reading all of Revelation 6:12-17: Compare Revelation 6:12 with Revelation 6:17).
3. The 6th seal has the sun turning dark, and a blood moon (Revelation 6:12-13).
4. The Day of the Lord has the sun turning dark, and a blood moon (Acts of the Apostles 2:20) (Joel 2:31).

Important Note 2:

We are told to watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy so as to escape all these end times things that are mentioned in the Olivet discourse.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (See Luke 21:36).

What would all these things include that Jesus just talked about?

Luke 21:
10 "Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

2nd seal: Wars (Peace taken from the Earth) (See Revelation 6:3-4). This lines up with nation rising against nation in Luke 21:10.

3rd seal: Famine (Revelation 6:5-6) This lines up with the famine mentioned in Luke 21:11.

Jesus said we can watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21:36).

Important Note 3:

In regards to Luke 12:36: The KJV rendering just says "wedding" and not a "wedding feast." The KJV has the correct rendering. Some Modern Translations mention "wedding feast" which is incorrect; Luke 12:36 is just in reference to the wedding itself. For the Marriage supper of the Lamb is the 2nd Coming of Christ destroying the nations of the world. To explain this would take another post with Scripture.

Jason, you are MILES off from truth. The antichrist does not show up until chapter 11, which will be 3 1/2 years after the 6th seal.
Your theory of the seals is faulty. Of course it is, because you are prewrath and that has thrown EVERYTHING off.

The truth is, the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven- so 32 AD. they are CHURCH AGE, not end times. Endtimes begins at the 6th seal. The 5th seal is martyrs of the church age.

Anytime Rapture View versus the rest.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Lamad

Lamad

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Lamad

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Lamad

Lamad

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