Is Hell Real?

AlexDTX said:

Hades is merely the Greek word, Sheol the Hebrew while Hell is English. They all mean the same thing: the dwelling of the dead. Hades is the name of the Greek god who ruled over the dead in Greek mythology. Hell is named after Hellas from Norse mythology, of which the English are derived. Hell is culturally confused with the Lake of Fire since when you reject Christ, you choose damnation. When you die Christ less, you go to Hell. There are millions in Hell.

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I am not so much interested in the etymology of the words as I am in how they are used in the Bible. In the NT, hades is used for the place of the dead, correct. It is clearly delineated from the final resting place of the wicked-- which from what I understand is the current usage of the English word hell (at least that is how I have always understood the word)-- in Revelation 20:14. I think we are getting caught up in semantics. Call it hell, call it Gehenna, call it the Lake of fire, there is a reality awaiting those who reject Jesus Christ, and it is not pleasant.

aiki said:

God's "foundation" is not love but holiness. We never read in Scripture of God's loving mountain, or loving throne, or loving angels. But we do read of His holy mountain, and throne, and angels. His word is holy; His justice is holy; His Spirit is holy; His love, also, is holy. It is not "Love, love, love, Lord God Almighty" that the cherubim before God's throne sing eternally but "Holy, holy, holy." (Revelations 4:8) We read in Scripture in only two places (in the same chapter, by the way) the statement "God is love," but we read over and over again throughout the Bible that God is holy. (Joshua 24:19; 1 Samuel 6:20; Psalms 99:5; Psalms 99:9; Isaiah 5:16; 1 Corinthians 3:17, etc.) Our modern Christian culture has distorted God, setting His love as pre-eminent over all of His other attributes, and as a consequence of this distortion, modern Christians are increasingly denying the doctrine of hell that is the consequence of God's holy perfection.

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This is so well said, and so important to know, that I quoted it just so it wouldn't get lost in the larger post.

God bless you, aiki

Invalidusername said:

Exactly. Why believe in the cross if there is no punishment?

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Because Christ will be surrounded by those who desire Life.....not those who only want to avoid the oven. One has to seek Him with their whole heart.....and this is not possible when the fear of avoiding a burning oven, or an expectation to wear a starry crown, is present.

RaymondG said:

Because Christ will be surrounded by those who desire Life.....not those who only want to avoid the oven. One has to seek Him with their whole heart.....and this is not possible when the fear of avoiding a burning oven, or an expectation to wear a starry crown, it present.

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Without hell there is no death only life.

Invalidusername said:

Without hell there is no death only life.

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Do you feel you have life now? Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead. Eternal life is there for you to take now....but it is hard to think about that when we have the toaster oven of the future to fear and worry about.

Get real

Let me put some emotional language situations in context.
My friend, our neighbour is a nice person. But a small thing will upset, or a spider in a room. Not a little upset, but running away from screaming upset.

Now lets put this into the context of ultimate judgement of ones whole life with torment, eternal torment with no escape. If people saw this for real, they would never do anything again in their lives and be total wreaks. I have a hard time thinking about my work and will it be useful and work properly. I can have panic attacks about this. So on the scale of do I get these ideas truly in my soul, nope.

I know how fragile I am, we all are and how much we need the counsel of Jesus and His loving support through the Holy Spirit. So babies, young disabled children dying early without Christ, without support or hope, are these the target of torment and judgement.
Paul was concerned about this issue enough to write a believing parent, sanctifies the child, so if they die they are considered a believer. As a loving parent this was a concern to me also, except I trust the Lord and His loving provision.

Please do not get me wrong. I want the view God gives us and then to know how to preach and share this with others. Jonah did this for Nineveh and they were spared. We are called likewise to bring this to the world, yet I am not sure we fully grasp it well.

By the way, if you meet people and the different states they are living in, you know there is hell on earth, let alone at judgement time.

RaymondG said:

Do you feel you have life now? Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead. Eternal life is there for you to take now....but it is hard to think about that when we have the toaster oven of the future to fear and worry about.

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Jesus also says hell is a real place.

Invalidusername said:

Jesus also says hell is a real place.

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I've never said it wasn't real....you can only quote me saying the opposite...

RaymondG said:

I've never said it wasn't real....you can only quote me saying the opposite...

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So what have we been arguing about then?

Hell is not real.

Our modern Bibles use the word hell a lot, but they're simply bad translations. Take for example the KJV. It is completely inconsistent in it's translation of the following four words, which are sometimes translated as "hell", but only when it refers to the wicked dying.

Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Taratarus.

The words sheol and Hades both mean "underworld / abode of the dead", and this is a place where all people are said to go upon death, not only the wicked.

The KJV however conveniently translates sheol as "hell" when it refers to the wicked dying (Proverbs 9:18) but translates it as "the grave" when it refers to the righteous dying (Genesis 44:31). The bias should be obvious.

The NIV does not use the word in the old testament, only the new. Young's Literal Translation doesn't use the word hell at all, because it's a literal translation. Go figure. Hell does not exist in the original manuscripts. It's a pagan concept that was usurped by the church to scare people into obedience, and especially into paying the tithe.

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." Polybius

"I further believe, although certain persons deny it, that the influence of fear is to be exercised over the minds of men and that it ought to operate upon the mind of the preacher himself." Charles Spurgeon

"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Strabo

Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R in his book The Sight of Hell (A Catholic book for children)
"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in he evening, a child is just going into hell. To-morrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning; Go in a year and asks the same answer comes--it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same--it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer--it is burning in the fire.) --

More from Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R "The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor."

If you can imagine Jesus Christ telling those same stories, then I could understand why you would believe in hell. Personally, I can't imagine Christ ever saying these things, but this is what the church teaches. How horrible must our God be for this to be true.

LastSeven said:

Hell is not real.

Our modern Bibles use the word hell a lot, but they're simply bad translations. Take for example the KJV. It is completely inconsistent in it's translation of the following four words, which are sometimes translated as "hell", but only when it refers to the wicked dying.

Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Taratarus.

The words sheol and Hades both mean "underworld / abode of the dead", and this is a place where all people are said to go upon death, not only the wicked.

The KJV however conveniently translates sheol as "hell" when it refers to the wicked dying (Proverbs 9:18) but translates it as "the grave" when it refers to the righteous dying (Genesis 44:31). The bias should be obvious.

The NIV does not use the word in the old testament, only the new. Young's Literal Translation doesn't use the word hell at all, because it's a literal translation. Go figure. Hell does not exist in the original manuscripts. It's a pagan concept that was usurped by the church to scare people into obedience, and especially into paying the tithe.

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." Polybius

"I further believe, although certain persons deny it, that the influence of fear is to be exercised over the minds of men and that it ought to operate upon the mind of the preacher himself." Charles Spurgeon

"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Strabo

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Yet we have evidence of a resurrection and ascension, and it wasn't to hell... That we are told could be ours as well...

BTW, I used to be a JW and happen to know about this, I think, and, if I recall, Sheol is only used in the OT, and did refer to the grave or just simply dying, (but were not completely sure if that mean they did not exist anymore or not, or were destroyed and or completely lost (but also, come now, is anything at all or anyone really ever "lost" completely to God, I don't think so, anyway)...

But when Jesus and others of Jesus time and day spoke of it (to heathens mind you), (for the concept maybe, IDK...?) (anyway), it was in Greek... and Hades and Gehenna, are the ones used most often by all or most of them most of the time....

Hades referring to an abode of the dead, and is used in a parable about the rich man and Lazarus, (notice only Lazarus is named by name), unless that is a lie of course...

And Gehenna is the refuse pile outside the gates and walls of the physical city of Jerusalem, (meant to mean metaphorically, the Kingdom and City of God) that is constantly burning and on fire, day and night, where the trash and garbage, or waste, or refuse is disposed of, which is meant to be the like the Lake of Fire... I do not know, but I do think they were the same thing, but I could be wrong...

Are you saying you don't believe in an afterlife...?

God Bless!

LastSeven said:

Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R in his book The Sight of Hell (A Catholic book for children)
"Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in he evening, a child is just going into hell. To-morrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning; Go in a year and asks the same answer comes--it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same--it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer--it is burning in the fire.) --

More from Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R "The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor."

If you can imagine Jesus Christ telling those same stories, then I could understand why you would believe in hell. Personally, I can't imagine Christ ever saying these things, but this is what the church teaches. How horrible must our God be for this to be true.

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For one Children don't burn in the afterlife, they have to lose their innocence first, and then have to have, and have a need for someone to help them and have a way to get it back (Jesus)... But the innocent are always saved...

And how else should an angel or God describe hell, to say a child who cannot understand it yet (us) other than it is a place where people are burning to death and yet not dying... And among other things about it, bad things... I think that's why they purposely try to use some very generic, kind of vague, broad terms that could mean many things to describe it...

But, as I said in an earlier post, I think Hell is here and is staying here forever...

God Bless!

LastSeven said:

Hell is not real.

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How would you know? The Bible says there is a hell. Who is more trustworthy and authoritative on this matter? You or God? God, I think.

LastSeven said:

Our modern Bibles use the word hell a lot, but they're simply bad translations. Take for example the KJV. It is completely inconsistent in it's translation of the following four words, which are sometimes translated as "hell", but only when it refers to the wicked dying.

Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Taratarus.

The words sheol and Hades both mean "underworld / abode of the dead", and this is a place where all people are said to go upon death, not only the wicked.

The KJV however conveniently translates sheol as "hell" when it refers to the wicked dying (Proverbs 9:18) but translates it as "the grave" when it refers to the righteous dying (Genesis 44:31). The bias should be obvious.

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What does any of this have to do with whether or not the Bible speaks of eternal, conscious torment in a place of fire, darkness and separation from God? It does and this place is called Gehenna in the original language(s) of the New Testament.

LastSeven said:

Young's Literal Translation doesn't use the word hell at all, because it's a literal translation. Go figure. Hell does not exist in the original manuscripts. It's a pagan concept that was usurped by the church to scare people into obedience, and especially into paying the tithe.

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First of all, there are no surviving original manuscripts of the New Testament. Second, while the word "hell" itself does not appear in ancient copies of the New Testament, the term "gehenna" does and Scripture depicts it is a place of eternal fire, darkness, separation and suffering. If there is a demonic counterfeit of hell to be found in pagan religions (as there is of the Flood story and of Christ dying), it is because such a place actually exists - just as the Bible says it does.

LastSeven said:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." Polybius

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This merely repeats your assertion; it does not prove it. As far as I can see, Polybius is offering his opinion, here, not providing fact. And he says nothing in the quotation about the origin of the notion of Gehenna in the Bible.

LastSeven said:

"I further believe, although certain persons deny it, that the influence of fear is to be exercised over the minds of men and that it ought to operate upon the mind of the preacher himself." Charles Spurgeon

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This, too, does not prove your view of hell merely being contrived as a tool of control by the writers of Scripture. It is an out-of-context comment by Spurgeon that makes no assertions about hell and its allegedly pagan origin or, for that matter, about controlling others.

LastSeven said:

"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Strabo

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Again, this makes no comment on the origin or purpose of hell as it appears in the Bible. That the "threatenings of the gods" may have had a constraining effect upon their followers has no bearing upon the legitimacy of the threat of hell in Scripture. The hell of Scripture is no "scarecrow" but the promise of the Creator to all those who live in unrepentant rebellion to Him.

Neogaia777 said:

Are you saying you don't believe in an afterlife...?

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I wasn't saying that, but it depends what you mean by an afterlife. If you mean that when we die, we don't actually die but instead leave our bodies to go either to heaven or hell, then no, I don't believe that. If that were true, then Jesus would not have died either, but I believe he died. Also, if that were true then our destination would have been determined upon death, and not at the throne judgment as the Bible teaches. So why would I believe such things?

aiki said:

How would you know? The Bible says there is a hell. Who is more trustworthy and authoritative on this matter? You or God? God, I think.

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For the question who is more trustworthy, God or myself, I would have to concede that battle right off the bat, but to concede that there is a place of eternal torment for the wicked you would first have to show me where God claims such.

aiki said:

What does any of this have to do with whether or not the Bible speaks of eternal, conscious torment in a place of fire, darkness and separation from God? It does and this place is called Gehenna in the original language(s) of the New Testament.

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Gehenna is a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where people used to sacrifice their children in fire. Hence the reference by Jesus.

Neogaia777 said:

For one Children don't burn in the afterlife, they have to lose their innocence first.

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Are you saying children are not guilty of sin?

LastSeven said:

For the question who is more trustworthy, God or myself, I would have to concede that battle right off the bat, but to concede that there is a place of eternal torment for the wicked you would first have to show me where God claims such.


Gehenna is a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where people used to sacrifice their children in fire. Hence the reference by Jesus.

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So Jesus casts people into a place that no longer exists?

.....

LastSeven said:

Are you saying children are not guilty of sin?

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They commit sins in innocence, but at some point that changes inevitably...

God Bless!