THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY!

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Saint Steven

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The problem arises, if you do not accept any outside sources, then you do not have the New Testament either. The New Testament was assembled during the first two hundred years of church history. From memory, I think the council of Laodicea in 363 AD, listed the letters accepted as the New Testament.

I cannot see how someone who rejects church history can derive a New Testament.
That's a GREAT point.
Most people don't understand that the books in our new testament were chosen from all of the writings of the early church. They chose a set of books to consider, and then the accepted texts were canonized into our New Testament. There was a council that voted them in or out. The book of James almost didn't make it into the Bible. It had many negative votes.

Many seem to have the idea that the writings of the early church happened after "the close" of the new testament writings. That's not how it happened.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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What's your take on this?

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Here is your answer brother.
The Glory that was contained within the Mosaic law was the Glory that was fulfilled. The Glory that came by Moses and the Mosaic Law was done away but the Moral Law that Remaineth is Glorious.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

It was the Law written by Moses that put the Vail upon their hearts not the Law written in stone by God these are two separate sets of law. Reading the Law Written by Moses is different than reading the Law that was written by God(Moral Law).The Vail that was the Mosaic Law was fulfilled/taken away and now the Glory that comes from God and is within the Moral law is able to be perceived as it is part of our new spiritual law.
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Every one of the Ten commandments were reiterated and expanded upon in the New testament showing that they are still in effect. Thus the Ten commandments are now as they have always been, a part of the Lord's law. Christ and the Apostles said that each of the Ten commandments were still in effect and even expanded upon them.

So you Can see brother that each of the Ten commandments can be shown in the New testament, proving that the Ten commandments are still in effect and it was only the Law of Moses along with the Glory that came by the Mosaic law that was fulfilled.

The Moral Law written on stone was not part of the Mosaic law written on parchment.
The stone tablets that were the Moral law are no longer needed as the Moral Law(which is now part of the Law of Christ) is now written in our hearts and stone tablets are not needed.
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This is after the Promise of the New covenant and that the Law(Moral Law and Law of Christ) would be written in their Hearts
A New covenant will be made:Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 28:10,13-19, Ezekiel 36:23-27,29-31
The Old Covenant will not stand:Isaiah 28:13-19
The New law will be written in their Hearts:Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 36:26
The Whole Covenant that was the Book of the Covenant would be Fulfilled:Isaiah 28:15,17

This is the Circumcision of the Heart(Romans 2:28-29; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 10:8; Colossians 2:11-13; Philippians 3:3)

The Moral Law is written in our hearts and the Tablets of Stone are not needed brother, just because the tablets are not needed it doesn't mean the Moral Law is done away with, and given the Fact that each of the Moral laws are restated within the Law of Christ it is easy to see the Moral Law still stands.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Why would you "wait" for something I already told you I had no interest in doing?
Because until you can give a clear interpretation for Hebrews 4(which only speaks of one thing). I have no reason to accept your interpretation of a couple passages taken out of Context.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Do you have any idea how extensive the library of early church writings is?
You already picked apart the Didache. As did I the first time I saw it.

You are completely missing the point here.
I'm not promoting the writings of the early church above the New Testament.
They do however serve as a historic window into the goings-on of the early church.

And from that perspective are a good source for defining a term that is not defined in the New Testament. These early writings clearly define the term "the Lord's Day". I understand that this disagrees with your doctrine. If what I am saying is true it has catastrophic effect your doctrine. It proves that the NT church was not a Sabbath-keeping church. A point that you find impossible to prove otherwise. Let that sink in.
I understand, and as I said I have no more reason to accept these early writings as the truth than I do Mr Crowley's writings. Unless it can be proven that each of these people preached the true Gospel we cannot know who they are of, God or the Devil.

So it doesn't' matter if these people kept that day or not if we can't prove they are God's own.
 
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Saint Steven

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Here is your answer brother.
The Glory that was contained within the Mosaic law was the Glory that was fulfilled. The Glory that came by Moses and the Mosaic Law was done away but the Moral Law that Remaineth is Glorious.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

It was the Law written by Moses that put the Vail upon their hearts not the Law written in stone by God these are two separate sets of law. Reading the Law Written by Moses is different than reading the Law that was written by God(Moral Law).The Vail that was the Mosaic Law was fulfilled/taken away and now the Glory that comes from God and is within the Moral law is able to be perceived as it is part of our new spiritual law.
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Every one of the Ten commandments were reiterated and expanded upon in the New testament showing that they are still in effect. Thus the Ten commandments are now as they have always been, a part of the Lord's law. Christ and the Apostles said that each of the Ten commandments were still in effect and even expanded upon them.

So you Can see brother that each of the Ten commandments can be shown in the New testament, proving that the Ten commandments are still in effect and it was only the Law of Moses along with the Glory that came by the Mosaic law that was fulfilled.

The Moral Law written on stone was not part of the Mosaic law written on parchment.
The stone tablets that were the Moral law are no longer needed as the Moral Law(which is now part of the Law of Christ) is now written in our hearts and stone tablets are not needed.
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

This is after the Promise of the New covenant and that the Law(Moral Law and Law of Christ) would be written in their Hearts
A New covenant will be made:Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 28:10,13-19, Ezekiel 36:23-27,29-31
The Old Covenant will not stand:Isaiah 28:13-19
The New law will be written in their Hearts:Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 36:26
The Whole Covenant that was the Book of the Covenant would be Fulfilled:Isaiah 28:15,17

This is the Circumcision of the Heart(Romans 2:28-29; Acts 15:7-9; Romans 10:8; Colossians 2:11-13; Philippians 3:3)

The Moral Law is written in our hearts and the Tablets of Stone are not needed brother, just because the tablets are not needed it doesn't mean the Moral Law is done away with, and given the Fact that each of the Moral laws are restated within the Law of Christ it is easy to see the Moral Law still stands.
You have a real talent for turning the Bible inside out, upside down, and backwards. Hopefully you agree that the Ten Commandments were engraved in letters on stone.

That being the case, this scripture says that the Ten Commandments is the transitory ministry that brought death and condemnation that has no glory now. The opposite of what you said.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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So you are claiming that if two Christians gather at a Jewish synagogue it suddenly becomes a Christian church; but when the Christians leave it becomes a Jewish synagogue again?

And this is how you support your claim of a Sabbath-keeping Christian church? You lost this argument two pages ago. Give it up.
Brother, we are the Church of God and wherever we are Gathered in the Lord's name that is where the Lord is. I already showed you where it says it. If you can't accept that, then that's on you.
I ask you to show any instance of the Apostles breaking the Sabbath day, as in show where they did work for their own monetary gain. Do that and you win.
God bless you brother.
 
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Saint Steven

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Because until you can give a clear interpretation for Hebrews 4(which only speaks of one thing). I have no reason to accept your interpretation of a couple passages taken out of Context.
Suit yourself. What do you know about context?
 
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Saint Steven

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Brother, we are the Church of God and wherever we are Gathered in the Lord's name that is where the Lord is. I already showed you where it says it. If you can't accept that, then that's on you.
I ask you to show any instance of the Apostles breaking the Sabbath day, as in show where they did work for their own monetary gain. Do that and you win.
God bless you brother.
Were the Apostles followers of Jesus?

John 5:17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
 
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You have a real talent for turning the Bible inside out, upside down, and backwards. Hopefully you agree that the Ten Commandments were engraved in letters on stone.

That being the case, this scripture says that the Ten Commandments is the transitory ministry that brought death and condemnation that has no glory now. The opposite of what you said.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Actually brother you are missing where it ceases to speak of Mosaic law and starts speaking of Moral law and it's glory as well as other aspects contained within.

Moral law written in our hearts.
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Not with ink(not by mosaic law) but by the Spirit(law of the Spirit). No longer on stone(moral law) but written in our hearts(Moral law)
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Not of the letter of the law(mosaic law which killeth) but of the spirit(law of the Spirit)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

While under the mosaic law the moral law also became a ministration of Death(being coupled with law written in ink) for the Moral law is easy but the Mosaic law is bondage. The Glory contained within these tablets was Glorious to behold but they who were to be under the law could not behold this law's Glory because of the veil of Moses. Which veil has been taken away and the Glory behind the veil revealed.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

The Glory that was done away(Glory seen through the veil of the Mosaic law) was Glorious. But the Veil being taken away that which remains(moral law which was hidden behind the veil of the Mosaic law) is much more Glorious.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Were the Apostles followers of Jesus?

John 5:17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Working for the Lord. Does the Lord not do the Lord's work? Is that what you are driving at brother?
 
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Saint Steven

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Actually brother you are missing where it ceases to speak of Mosaic law and starts speaking of Moral law and it's glory as well as other aspects contained within.

Moral law written in our hearts.
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Not with ink(not by mosaic law) but by the Spirit(law of the Spirit). No longer on stone(moral law) but written in our hearts(Moral law)
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Not of the letter of the law(mosaic law which killeth) but of the spirit(law of the Spirit)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

While under the mosaic law the moral law also became a ministration of Death(being coupled with law written in ink) for the Moral law is easy but the Mosaic law is bondage. The Glory contained within these tablets was Glorious to behold but they who were to be under the law could not behold this law because of the veil of Moses. Which veil has been taken away and the Glory behind the veil revealed.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

The Glory that was done away(Glory seen through the veil of the Mosaic law) was Glorious. But the Veil being taken away that which remains(moral law which was hidden behind the veil of the Mosaic law) is much more Glorious.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
The Mosaic law is not a law created by Moses, it is the law of God. Because God gave the law to Moses to write down. There is no difference between the Mosaic law and the law. The same law.
 
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The Mosaic law is not a law created by Moses, it is the law of God. Because God gave the law to Moses to write down. There is no difference between the Mosaic law and the law. The same law.
Not according to the chapter you quoted(along with many others) a distinction is made clearly between the two. The Mosaic law was written in Ink by the hand of Moses by the Instruction of God. The Moral Law was written by God's own hand in stone by his own will.
 
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I ask you to show any instance of the Apostles breaking the Sabbath day, as in show where they did work for their own monetary gain. Do that and you win.
God bless you brother.
They were caught red-handed.

Matthew 12:2
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
 
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Saint Steven

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Not according to the chapter you quoted(along with many others) a distinction is made clearly between the two. The Mosaic law was written in Ink by the hand of Moses by the Instruction of God. The Moral Law was written by God's own hand in stone by his own will.
So you are claiming that the Mosaic law was not written according to God's will?
 
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They were caught red-handed.

Matthew 12:2
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
Actually brother if you read what Christ said you will see there was precedent for doing so. Also you should look who the sabbath was made for.
Matt 12:
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mark 2:
23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luke 6:
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I'm still waiting for the Verse that shows the Apostles working for their own monetary gain on the Sabbath day.
 
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So you are claiming that the Mosaic law was not written according to God's will?
I never said such a thing brother. In fact I ask you to read what I said again to see if I said anything of the sort.
 
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Actually brother if you read what Christ said you will see there was precedent for doing so. Also you should look who the sabbath was made for.
Matt 12:
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mark 2:
23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luke 6:
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Yes. I am familiar with the passage.
I suppose you think I am picking verses out of context with no knowledge of their whole-passage meaning.

- The Pharisees caught Jesus disciples violating the Sabbath. This qualifies as "any instance of the Apostles breaking the Sabbath day", therefore I win. (hooray)
- Jesus explains by citing another unlawful act which implicates himself. (David and his companions)
- In a synoptic passage he also uses the example of the priests desecrating the Sabbath with their work.
- Then Jesus gives an insight that a Sabbatarian would never teach. Man was not made for the Sabbath.
 
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Saint Steven

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I never said such a thing brother. In fact I ask you to read what I said again to see if I said anything of the sort.
It was a question. Why do you treat the Mosaic law as if it was not God-breathed? (inspired)
 
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Saint Steven

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… The Moral Law written on stone was not part of the Mosaic law written on parchment. …
The Ten Commandments appear twice in the Mosaic law. Exodus chapter twenty and Deuteronomy chapter five. Were you a slave in Egypt? Maybe you don't remember.

Deuteronomy 5:15
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
 
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