If my position was not evident, it included the full picture of understanding the naturalistic in light of the supernatural.For the same reason, perhaps, that you did not make it clear earlier that you were operating from a narrow, religious, evidence-light, agenda-rich opinion suite. i.e. it should have been self evident.
My explicit point was that your position was evident, just as Dogma Hunter's position was evident, yet you chose to criticise him for allegedly not making his position clear. I thought your remark skirted the edges of being an ad hominem. My implicit point was to draw this to your attention by mimicing your comments.If my position was not evident, it included the full picture of understanding the naturalistic in light of the supernatural.
As an atheist, Dogma Hunter is not placing your God on trial. He is "putting on trial" the stance that appears to be taken by your God, based upon scripture, which is said to be His Word. (For a conventional theist putting any god on trial would be a questionable act.)I mean if one wants to put God on trial they should at least have their own supernatural abilities. Or even have an Avenger on their debate team.
I was being logically inquisitive.I thought your remark skirted the edges of being an ad hominem. My implicit point was to draw this to your attention by mimicing your comments
As an atheist, Dogma Hunter is not placing your God on trial. He is "putting on trial" the stance that appears to be taken by your God, based upon scripture, which is said to be His Word. (For a conventional theist putting any god on trial would be a questionable act.)
Take your threats elsewhere.
Because you would build it?Well for a start, it'd be real.
nOTThank you for the reply. I think we all share in the common grace of God which gives us the love for family and life as a gift.
I would gather then your hope ends when you take your last breath?
It wouldn't be hope that ended with my last breath, it would be my life. I believe that you hope for things that are outside of your control. If you really want something to happen then it is up to you to make it happen rather than sit around and hope it happens. Even at that, doing your best to make something happen is not always going to guarantee success, but that's all part of life's lottery.Thank you for the reply. I think we all share in the common grace of God which gives us the love for family and life as a gift.
I would gather then your hope ends when you take your last breath?
I don't know why you say I don't understand wickedness as your god sees it. I don't believe in your god so I have no reason to try and understand what it considers to be wicked. I look at slavery and genocide and know that it is totally wrong and without justification. These injustices are the works of man, nothing to do with any god. Sure the bible says that these people sacrificed their children and indulged in inappropriate behavior with animals, things that any sane right-minded person would say was barbaric and totally beyond the pale. But don't you think that acts of genocide and the slaughter of mothers, children and infants are wrong and beyond the pale? Don't you think that claiming another person is your property, someone you have the right to beat, take away his wife and children or tag him like a farm animal are wrong?It's okay to question. Frankly, there is NO answer that we know. All we have is speculation why God allowed slavery in the OT. We do have some understanding why God commanded genocide. It was because of the corruption of those not Israelites because they worshipped other God's and we're exceedingly wicked. That wickedness is no big deal to you because you don't believe in wickedness as God sees it. But that doesn't change the fact that's how God sees it. Again that is irrelevant because it's what you do with Jesus that matters. You will be without excuse.
the slavery that was experienced from the 1400s to the 1800s was in violation of biblical slave law. it was actually a form of man-stealing which is condemned in scripture.
No I'm taking the conversation to its logical conclusion
Slavery is an injustice,
but so are most wars, poverty, people starving to death when others have plenty, sickness and even death
All things which plague mankind and "if" a benevolent God existed why would this God allow these things to continue? That's what is being plied here.
So the question really should be why would a benevolent God even allow His creation to sin and offend Him? Why just ask about slavery something God did not create, why not all injustices?
So based on this "create" for me, Dogmahunter, your ideal god which would be sensitive to fixing all the evils created by mankind.
What does your ideal god look like and why should he or she submit to your will and purpose?
It might be because he/she thinks God has to be like whatever he/she wants he to be.
It's okay to question. Frankly, there is NO answer that we know. All we have is speculation why God allowed slavery in the OT. We do have some understanding why God commanded genocide. It was because of the corruption of those not Israelites because they worshipped other God's and we're exceedingly wicked. That wickedness is no big deal to you because you don't believe in wickedness as God sees it. But that doesn't change the fact that's how God sees it. Again that is irrelevant because it's what you do with Jesus that matters. You will be without excuse.
You remind me of a little kid playing in traffic, who replies to the adults telling him to get off the street with 'don't tell me what to do, you're not the boss of me!'
You are referring to Exodus 21:16: "Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession.
The man-stealing law was a prohibition against kidnapping. It didn't prohibit:
- enslaving non-Hebrew enemy captives taking during war (Explicitly allowed by Deuteronomy 20:10-18)
- buying non-Hebrew slaves at the markets (Explicitly allowed by Leviticus 25:44-46).
The following article shows that slavery in the US was almost exactly the same as that in the Bible:
Yes, Biblical Slavery Was the Same as American Slavery
Turning to the question of how most African slaves became slaves: According to John K. Thornton, Europeans usually bought enslaved people who were captured in endemic warfare between African states. Some Africans had made a business out of capturing Africans from neighboring ethnic groups or war captives and selling them. I would imagine that non-Hebrews obtained their slaves in a similar way in ancient times.
The American laws that regulated slavery was based on the Bible:
Extract from Wikipedia: (History of slavery in Massachusetts - Wikipedia)
In 1641, Massachusetts passed its Body of Liberties which gave legal sanction to certain kinds of slavery:
There shall never be any bond slaverie, villinage or captivitie amongst us unless it be lawfull captives taken in just warres, and such strangers as willingly selle themselves or are sold to us. And these shall have all the liberties and Christian usages which the law of God established in Israell concerning such persons doeth morally require. This exempts none from servitude who shall be judged thereto by Authoritie
Wiecek notes that the reference to "strangers" is derived from Leviticus 25: 39–55 and explains that they could be ruled and sold as slaves.[12][14] For the Puritans and citizens of the colony, "strangers" would eventually mean Native Americans and Africans.[12] Even though the Body of Liberties excluded many forms of slavery, it did recognize four legitimate bases of slavery.[12] Slaves could legally be obtained if they were captives resulting from war, sold themselves into slavery, were purchased as slaves from elsewhere, or were sentenced to slavery through the governing authority.[15] This made Massachusetts the first colony to authorize slavery through legislation.[15] In 1670, Massachusetts made it legal for the children of slaves to be sold into bondage.[16] By 1680, the colony had laws restricting the movements of blacks.[16] A 1703 law required owners to post a bond for all slaves to protect towns in the case that a slave became indigent should the master refuse to continue caring for him or her.[2]
In Biblical times, slaves were supposed to be treated humanely and their treatment was regulated by Biblical law.” The same was applicable in America:
- the 1739 South Carolina code limited the number of hours that slaves could be made to work and fined anyone who killed a slave £700.
- The 1833 Alabama law code dictated, “Any person who shall maliciously dismember or deprive a slave of life, shall suffer such punishment as would be inflicted in case the like offense had been committed on a free white person.”
- Ten Southern codes made it a crime to mistreat a slave.... Under the Louisiana Civil Code of 1825 (art. 192), if a master was "convicted of cruel treatment," the judge could order the sale of the mistreated slave, presumably to a better master
- In 1791, the North Carolina legislature made the willful killing of a slave murder unless it was done who was resisting or under moderate correction
- The South Carolina slave code was revised in 1739, with the following amendments:[46]
No slave could be taught to write, work on Sunday, or work more than 15 hours per day in summer and 14 hours in winter.
The willful killing of a slave was fined £700, and "passion" killing £350.
point being that the African was obtained through these condemned means. Africa never went to war with Europe outside of defending themselves from being invaded.
what needs to be understand about the wars that Israel had with other nations was that is was an extension of God's judgement on those nations(Deuteronomy 9:1-6). the LORD would either order Israel to attack these nations in judgement on them or have those nations attack Israel to give them into their hand. slaves laws from the LORD to treat them roughly goes along with His judgement on them.
this can't be said for Europe against Africa.
these points all become immaterial due to the fact that, again, Africa was never at war with Europe. furthermore, most of this only applies to European slaves, who were, more or less, indentured servants, serving for a period of time.
excerpt from the cornerstone speech for the confederacy:
“Corner Stone” Speech | Teaching American History
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
"Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system."
to think this way of people whom you kidnapped and made slaves is in every way a violation of slave law and an utter betrayal of these "devout Christians" professions of faith.
Ah yes - yet another bad thing from Replacement Theology.Europeans viewed themselves as the God's chosen people (just like the Hebrews viewed themselves) and the Africans as pagans that had to serve them. To be chosen by God means that you are superior to other pagan nations