Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

ClementofA · Oct 6, 2018

Der Alter said:
My post was dealing with ECF understanding of aionios, I do not see anything here which addresses that.

Your post referred to a different Greek word, not aionios, but aionon:

Der Alter said:
These native Greek speaking ECF considered aionon to mean eternal, everlasting etc

Furthermore, your post didn't indicate where either of those Greek words appear in the text. Neither did you provide any Greek texts of the passages in support of your claim that the English translations you posted even use the Greek word you refer to. Assuming the extant writings of the English you posted even come from a Greek language text, as opposed to, say, Latin, or some other ancient language.

Pneuma3 · Oct 7, 2018

Robin Mauro said:
And sorry my response wound up in the middle of what you said.
I obviously don't know how to use this site correctly. It may be me, may be the site, may be my phone, or may be a combination of all these!

Neckelehamiah said:
God will save people out of hell. The two witnesses will travel there to convert them.

Robin I added you with N (sorry name is just to long :help:

) because you asked if all being saved meant Satan was saved also and N said yes Satan is saved also/

Now there are two different groups as it were in the universalist camps. some believe the salvation of all is only for mankind and some (like me) who believe it is for the salvation of all inclusively.

Here is a small article I wrote on......

......Satan’s reconciliation

When we limit God salvation to just man we do much damage to the scriptures, and put a limit on the only one who is without limit. We diminish the fullness of the cross of our Lord by saying it only reaches to mankind. ALL THINGS in heaven and earth and under the earth are reconciled by way of the cross. And yes that includes Satan.

Ephesians 1:10
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Just by these two scriptures above we can see that all things in the heaven will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But not only those things in the heavens, but those things in the earth and under the earth also confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross of our Lord.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now least any say, but Col.1:16-20 says nothing about Satan being reconciled, I would point out that ALL THINGS in heaven, ALL THINGS in the earth, both visible and INVISIBLE, are reconciled.

Also note that it states that THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS are also reconciled by way of the cross.

So who are these THRONES, DOMINIONS, PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS?

Ephesians 6:12 tells us.

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now according to the above scriptures even those things we war against ( devils in high places ) are reconciled by way of the cross.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Note that the LIGHT shineth IN the darkness.

The darkness also has the Light and in the dispensation of the fullness of times, that Light is going to shine out of great darkness.

Yes the darkness will be gone for only the Light that is within it will remain, same as with us.

ALL THINGS are reconciled by way of the cross , I do not place a limit on Gods salvation for it is without limit.

Ephesians 3:8-10

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Praise God His cross is without limitations.

God bless.

Pneuma3 · Oct 7, 2018

Robin Mauro said:
But aren't the scriptures you quoted here about this life rather than the next? Not that there aren't plenty of hell scriptures too.- there are...just saying.

Robin I believe your reply here was actually directed at DA and not myself as I did not use any scripture. However in DA's response to me he quoted a few.

I had a hard time figuring out this site also, especially the quote function until one posted this and after a couple of tries it became easy.

Highlight a statement in one of my posts by stroking over it with the left button of the mouse held down. That's what I did with the statement above from your post. Lift your finger from the left button and the statement will be highlighted.

Under it will appear a choice to "quote" the highlighted statement. Click the quote box.

Do the same for every statement you want to respond to in my post.

In the reply box at the bottom of the page there will appear a box which says "insert quotes". Click that and all quotes will appear in the reply box.

Reply with what you have to say under each quote separately. Hit the "post reply" button to send your post. It will include the quotes and your replies to them.

Hope this helps you out sis.

ClementofA · Oct 7, 2018

Der Alter said:
Ezekiel 21:31-32
(31) And I [יהוה/YHWH vs. 28] will pour out my indignation upon you, [the wicked, vs. 3] I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(32) You will be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it.

I already addressed that verse in a post to you earlier in this thread & await your response. Here's my comment on those verses:

This commentary applies the passage to a nation, not individuals: "Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish." (biblehub)

The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

ClementofA · Oct 7, 2018

Der Alter said:
Jeremiah 13:14

Der Alter said:
<Clem>Can you show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also NEVER have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved<end>
What part of God, Himself, saying "I [God]will not pity, [I God will not ]spare, [I God will] destroy them? Do you think God did not mean "I will not have pity" when He said it? Do you think "I will not have mercy" means "sometime in the future I will have mercy?"
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH]I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The burden of proof is on you, and/or all other UR-ites, to prove from scripture that God decided to change His mind and sometime in the future He would have pity and mercy and would undestroy the unfaithful and disobedient Israelites in Jer 13. Your 2 proof texts from Jn and 1 Jn do not, cannot supersede the words of God Himself. There is no NT verse or verses which can supersede the plain meaning of the scriptures I quoted.

You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.

When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?

When God "destroyed" the world with a flood, children & babies included, He did not "spare" the world, or have "mercy" (the same words Jer.13:14 uses) but did "destroy" (same English word as Jer.13:14) the people of the world. Does that prove these people (babies included) could not be saved postmortem? No. And IMO the same applies to Jer.13:14. Now let's see you try to refute that. Also note that Jer.13:14 refers to "fathers and sons". How young might some of those "sons" be? Do you suppose babies will be frying in hell for all eternity, like Augustine (the so-called champion of eternal punishment) believed?

To give another example, God make the king in Daniel 4 eat grass like an animal for 7 years. God did not "spare" him from this ordeal, nor have "mercy" on him to pardon him from this punishment, but instead subjected him to this insanity (a destruction of his soul) for 7 years. Yet afterwards the king was restored to sanity, humbled & worshipped God.

Consider also the following passages from the Bible & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Der Alte · Oct 7, 2018

ClementofA said:
....
This commentary applies the passage to a nation, not individuals: "Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish." (biblehub)

And you think this proves what? Where does God, Himself, say "I know I said I would remember you no more but some UR-ite said I was going to save all mankind so I changed my mind about not remembering you." or words to that effect? The words of John or any other NT writer cannot abrogate the words of God! Your NT UR proof texts must align with what God, Himself, said in the OT. Instead of twisting God's words to make them align with UR false teachings.

The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

Irrelevant, illogical argument. So you are saying God read Paul's writing when He said "no longer be remembered" and really meant He would remember them some time in the future?

If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

This is the most absurd, ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Now you are arguing that God did not know what He was talking about, that people He has destroyed cannot be actually forgotten. Do you want to tell God that He can't actually forget people's sins too?

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2018

Robin Mauro said:
But aren't the scriptures you quoted here about this life rather than the next? Not that there aren't plenty of hell scriptures too.- there are...just saying.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. In the scripture, I quoted, God did not place any time limit on the judgments He pronounced. My point was that in the OT God, Himself, said concerning certain wicked people "you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it." Ezek 21:32, and of other certain wicked people "said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Jer 13:13.
.....The fallacious argument I was responding to claimed that because Jesus is called the "savior of the world," in the NT, He will absolutely, unequivocally, save all mankind the wicked along with the righteous, But that is not what God said in these two passages. There are at least fifteen more scripture in the OT which say the same thing.

[1]Psalms 115:17
(17) The dead praise not the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH], neither any that go down into silence;

[2]Psalms 6:5
(5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the nether-world [color=black][שׁאול/sheol] who will give you thanks?[/color]
[3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?
[4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more[/b]: and they are cut off from your hand.
[5]Psalms 88:10-12
(10) (88:11) Will you work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give you thanks? Selah
(11) (88:12) Shall your mercy be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction?
(12) (88:13) Shall your wonders be known in the dark? and your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
[6]Isaiah 38:18
(18) For the grave [שׁאול/sheol] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your truth.
[7]Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
[8]Ecclesiastes 9:5
(5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[9]Isaiah 26:14
(14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
[10]Psalms 49:17-19
(17) For when he dies he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
(18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise you, when you do well to yourself.
(19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
[11]Proverbs 10:28-29
(28) The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
(29) The way of the LORD ,[יהוה/YHWH] is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
[12]Proverbs 11:7
(7) When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perishes.
[13]Job 8:13
(13) So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:
[14]Job 8:20
(20) Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he [God] help the evil doers:
[15]Ezekiel 21:31-32
(31) And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(32) You will be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it.
[16]Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: ,[יהוה/YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
[17]Psalms 28:4-5
(4) Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
(5) Because they regard not the works of the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH] nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.[color]

ClementofA · Oct 8, 2018

Previously i posted:

The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

Der Alter replied:

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant, illogical argument. So you are saying God read Paul's writing when He said "no longer be remembered" and really meant He would remember them some time in the future?

I've shown a biblical example where the English translation "no more" or "no longer" does not equate to "never more". Ezekiel 21:32 that you posted uses the exact same English words "no more". If "no more" there also does not mean "never more", then your position based on Ezekiel 21:32 fails. The burden of proof is on you to prove that those words mean "never more". Until you can do that your argument hasn't got a leg to stand on & is dismissed. Class dismissed!

Acts 20:25:

Berean Literal Bible
And now, behold, I know that all of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face no more.

New American Standard Bible
"And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face.

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2018

ClementofA said:
Previously i posted:
The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?
Der Alter replied:
I've shown a biblical example where the English translation "no more" or "no longer" does not equate to "never more". Ezekiel 21:32 that you posted uses the exact same English words "no more". If "no more" there also does not mean "never more", then your position based on Ezekiel 21:32 fails. The burden of proof is on you to prove that those words mean "never more". Until you can do that your argument hasn't got a leg to stand on & is dismissed. Class dismissed!
Acts 20:25:
Berean Literal Bible
And now, behold, I know that all of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face no more.
New American Standard Bible
"And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face.

Your argument is illogical therefore irrelevant! Do you not understand the difference between man and God? Man is finite, God is infinite. Paul did not have the power to make the church elders at Ephesus, to whom he was speaking in Act 20:25, cease to exist. What Paul meant was I will not be back to Ephesus. God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist.

Eze 21:29-32
(29) Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you, it will be laid on the necks of the wicked who are to be slain, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax.
(30) "'Let the sword return to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your ancestry, I will judge you.
(31) I will pour out my wrath on you and breathe out my fiery anger against you; I will deliver you into the hands of brutal men, men skilled in destruction.
(32) You will be fuel for the fire, your blood will be shed in your land, you will be remembered no more; [תזכרי ] for I the LORD have spoken.'"
225BC LXX Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be fuel for fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of thy land; there shall be no remembrance at all of thee: for I the Lord have spoken it.
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Ammon as the enemy of the kingdom of God will utterly perish, leaving no trace behind, and without any such hope of restoration as that held out in Eze_21:27 to the kingdom of Judah or the people of Israel.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(32) Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish. For her there should be no future, like that promised to Israel in Ezekiel 21:27.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
21:28-32 The diviners of the Ammonites made false prophecies of victory. They would never recover their power, but in time would be wholly forgotten.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
32. thy blood shall be—that is, shall flow.
be no more remembered—be consigned as a nation to oblivion.
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt no where be safe, or thy blood shall not be covered, nor thou buried.
Thou shalt be no more remembered; thy name shall perish
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
thou shalt be no more remembered; but lie in everlasting oblivion, as they do to this day; the name of an Ammonite being nowhere mentioned and heard of:
for I the Lord have spoken it; who never alters the thing that is gone out of his lips; and sooner shall heaven and earth pass away than one word of his.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 32. - For Ammon there is no hope of a restoration like that which Ezekiel speaks of as possible for Jerusalem, and even for Sodom and Samaria. Its doom is written in the words, it shall be no more remembered (comp. Ezekiel 25:7).

ClementofA · Oct 8, 2018

Der Alter said:
Your argument is illogical therefore irrelevant! Do you not understand the difference between man and God? Man is finite, God is infinite. Paul did not have the power to make the church elders at Ephesus, to whom he was speaking in Act 20:25, cease to exist. What Paul meant was I will not be back to Ephesus. God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist.

Eze 21:29-32
(29) Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you, it will be laid on the necks of the wicked who are to be slain, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax.
(30) "'Let the sword return to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your ancestry, I will judge you.
(31) I will pour out my wrath on you and breathe out my fiery anger against you; I will deliver you into the hands of brutal men, men skilled in destruction.
(32) You will be fuel for the fire, your blood will be shed in your land, you will be remembered no more; [תזכרי ] for I the LORD have spoken.'"
225BC LXX Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be fuel for fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of thy land; there shall be no remembrance at all of thee: for I the Lord have spoken it.
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Ammon as the enemy of the kingdom of God will utterly perish, leaving no trace behind, and without any such hope of restoration as that held out in Eze_21:27 to the kingdom of Judah or the people of Israel.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(32) Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish. For her there should be no future, like that promised to Israel in Ezekiel 21:27.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
21:28-32 The diviners of the Ammonites made false prophecies of victory. They would never recover their power, but in time would be wholly forgotten.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
32. thy blood shall be—that is, shall flow.
be no more remembered—be consigned as a nation to oblivion.
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt no where be safe, or thy blood shall not be covered, nor thou buried.
Thou shalt be no more remembered; thy name shall perish
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
thou shalt be no more remembered; but lie in everlasting oblivion, as they do to this day; the name of an Ammonite being nowhere mentioned and heard of:
for I the Lord have spoken it; who never alters the thing that is gone out of his lips; and sooner shall heaven and earth pass away than one word of his.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 32. - For Ammon there is no hope of a restoration like that which Ezekiel speaks of as possible for Jerusalem, and even for Sodom and Samaria. Its doom is written in the words, it shall be no more remembered (comp. Ezekiel 25:7).

Der Alter, why did you say "God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist"? Is your theology now Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torments? Or are you admitting Ezekiel 21:32 refers to the nation of Ammonites & not individual destiny? Do you have a point in posting those commentaries? I see nothing in your post that refutes what my previous post said.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Oct 8, 2018

Der Alter said:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. In the scripture, I quoted, God did not place any time limit on the judgments He pronounced. My point was that in the OT God, Himself, said concerning certain wicked people "you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it." Ezek 21:32, and of other certain wicked people "said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Jer 13:13.
.....The fallacious argument I was responding to claimed that because Jesus is called the "savior of the world," in the NT, He will absolutely, unequivocally, save all mankind the wicked along with the righteous, But that is not what God said in these two passages. There are at least fifteen more scripture in the OT which say the same thing.

[1]Psalms 115:17
(17) The dead praise not the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH], neither any that go down into silence;
[2]Psalms 6:5
(5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the nether-world [color=black][שׁאול/sheol] who will give you thanks?[/color]
[3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?
[4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more[/b]: and they are cut off from your hand.
[5]Psalms 88:10-12
(10) (88:11) Will you work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give you thanks? Selah
(11) (88:12) Shall your mercy be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction?
(12) (88:13) Shall your wonders be known in the dark? and your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
[6]Isaiah 38:18
(18) For the grave [שׁאול/sheol] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your truth.
[7]Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
[8]Ecclesiastes 9:5
(5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[9]Isaiah 26:14
(14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
[10]Psalms 49:17-19
(17) For when he dies he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
(18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise you, when you do well to yourself.
(19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
[11]Proverbs 10:28-29
(28) The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
(29) The way of the LORD ,[יהוה/YHWH] is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
[12]Proverbs 11:7
(7) When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perishes.
[13]Job 8:13
(13) So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:
[14]Job 8:20
(20) Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he [God] help the evil doers:
[15]Ezekiel 21:31-32
(31) And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(32) You will be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it.
[16]Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: ,[יהוה/YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
[17]Psalms 28:4-5
(4) Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
(5) Because they regard not the works of the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH] nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.[color]

DA, your list of 15 verses were already addressed here:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

And now i invite you to address these 15 & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Tayla · Oct 9, 2018

Robin Mauro said:
And do you think Jesus went to hell for us, for 3 days?

I think Jesus went into Sheol to preach to all those who had died before his resurrection. At that time, those who believed in him became saved, and those who rejected him were moved to another more suitable location.

I think this is the pattern of what happens to all of us. When we die, Jesus comes to us and reveals his glory to us and preaches the gospel to us, and then we decide.

We each get one opportunity to choose. But our choice is made having full knowledge of who Jesus is and having heard the true gospel message. No one is without excuse.

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2018

jesus316 said:
begin

<J316>I think Jesus went into Sheol to preach to all those who had died before his resurrection. At that time, those who believed in him became saved, and those who rejected him were moved to another more suitable location.
I think this is the pattern of what happens to all of us. When we die, Jesus comes to us and reveals his glory to us and preaches the gospel to us, and then we decide.
We each get one opportunity to choose. But our choice is made having full knowledge of who Jesus is and having heard the true gospel message. No one is without excuse.<end>

end

Jesus did go to the grave but He never went to "hell." Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in the Bible. In Luk 4:18-19 Jesus states what His earthly ministry was.

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war" those are the captives Jesus preached freedom to. The primary meaning of the word translated "deliverance" is "freedom." 1 Pet 3:18-20 is the passage which some folks think refers to Jesus supposedly preaching in hell.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This passage does not refer to the dead in the grave, sheol, or wherever, since the only people who were saved were alive, on the earth, not dead in the grave, i.e. Noah and his family.

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Thanks for proving logic is beyond you

This is what I call the "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument. And a little "Because I say so," thrown in.

ClementofA · Oct 9, 2018

Der Alter said:
Your argument is illogical therefore irrelevant! Do you not understand the difference between man and God? Man is finite, God is infinite. Paul did not have the power to make the church elders at Ephesus, to whom he was speaking in Act 20:25, cease to exist. What Paul meant was I will not be back to Ephesus. God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist.

Eze 21:29-32
(29) Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you, it will be laid on the necks of the wicked who are to be slain, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax.
(30) "'Let the sword return to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your ancestry, I will judge you.
(31) I will pour out my wrath on you and breathe out my fiery anger against you; I will deliver you into the hands of brutal men, men skilled in destruction.
(32) You will be fuel for the fire, your blood will be shed in your land, you will be remembered no more; [תזכרי ] for I the LORD have spoken.'"
225BC LXX Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be fuel for fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of thy land; there shall be no remembrance at all of thee: for I the Lord have spoken it.
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Ammon as the enemy of the kingdom of God will utterly perish, leaving no trace behind, and without any such hope of restoration as that held out in Eze_21:27 to the kingdom of Judah or the people of Israel.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(32) Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish. For her there should be no future, like that promised to Israel in Ezekiel 21:27.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
21:28-32 The diviners of the Ammonites made false prophecies of victory. They would never recover their power, but in time would be wholly forgotten.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
32. thy blood shall be—that is, shall flow.
be no more remembered—be consigned as a nation to oblivion.
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt no where be safe, or thy blood shall not be covered, nor thou buried.
Thou shalt be no more remembered; thy name shall perish
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
thou shalt be no more remembered; but lie in everlasting oblivion, as they do to this day; the name of an Ammonite being nowhere mentioned and heard of:
for I the Lord have spoken it; who never alters the thing that is gone out of his lips; and sooner shall heaven and earth pass away than one word of his.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 32. - For Ammon there is no hope of a restoration like that which Ezekiel speaks of as possible for Jerusalem, and even for Sodom and Samaria. Its doom is written in the words, it shall be no more remembered (comp. Ezekiel 25:7).

Der Alter, why did you say "God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist"? Is your theology now Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torments? Or are you admitting Ezekiel 21:32 refers to the nation of Ammonites & not individual destiny? Do you have a point in posting those commentaries? I see nothing in your post that refutes what my previous post said.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2018

ClementofA said:
begin

<Clem>Der Alter, why did you say "God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist"? Is your theology now Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torments? Or are you admitting Ezekiel 21:32 refers to the nation of Ammonites & not individual destiny? Do you have a point in posting those commentaries? I see nothing in your post that refutes what my previous post said.<end>

end

Do not concern yourself about my theology or eschatology. Did not the Ammonites consist of individual human beings? Of course, you don't see anything in my posts, you have your handful of out-of-context proof texts and will not look at anything else. Your proof texts must be interpreted in light of what God, Himself, and Jesus, Himself, said. The writings of the disciples cannot supersede what God and Jesus said. And neither God nor Jesus ever said or implied that all mankind will be saved, righteous and evil alike.

ClementofA · Oct 9, 2018

I posted:

Der Alter, why did you say "God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist"? Is your theology now Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torments? Or are you admitting Ezekiel 21:32 refers to the nation of Ammonites & not individual destiny? Do you have a point in posting those commentaries? I see nothing in your post that refutes what my previous post said.

Der Alter replied:

Der Alter said:
Do not concern yourself about my theology or eschatology.

This is a theology forum & it is a concern whether your theological positions have changed or contradict each other. On the one hand you have in many threads opposed annihilationism and argued for endless conscious torments. Yet here you refer to Ammonites ceasing to exist. If they cease to exist as individuals, then they will not be subject to endless conscious torments. That would be a contradiction. You can't have it both ways. So if you are opposing universalism, you should make up your mind which view you hold to. If its endless conscious torments, then you can't have Ezek.21:32 referring to annihilation of the individual Ammonites.

Der Alter said:
Do not concern yourself about my theology or eschatology. Did not the Ammonites consist of individual human beings? Of course, you don't see anything in my posts, you have your handful of out-of-context proof texts and will not look at anything else. Your proof texts must be interpreted in light of what God, Himself, and Jesus, Himself, said. The writings of the disciples cannot supersede what God and Jesus said. And neither God nor Jesus ever said or implied that all mankind will be saved, righteous and evil alike.

See above.

Der Alte · Oct 9, 2018

ClementofA said:
begin

<Clem>Der Alter, why did you say "God did have the power to make the Ammonites cease to exist"? Is your theology now Annihilationism instead of eternal conscious torments? Or are you admitting Ezekiel 21:32 refers to the nation of Ammonites & not individual destiny? Do you have a point in posting those commentaries? I see nothing in your post that refutes what my previous post said.
This is a theology forum & it is a concern whether your theological positions have changed or contradict each other. On the one hand you have in many threads opposed annihilationism and argued for endless conscious torments. Yet here you refer to Ammonites ceasing to exist. If they cease to exist as individuals, then they will not be subject to endless conscious torments. That would be a contradiction. You can't have it both ways. So if you are opposing universalism, you should make up your mind which view you hold to. If its endless conscious torments, then you can't have Ezek.21:32 referring to annihilation of the individual Ammonites.<end>

end

In the post I was replying to, quoted below, you seemed to be suggesting that Paul would not see the saints in the after life.

ClementofA said:
begin

<Clem>Previously i posted:
The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?...<end>

end

ClementofA · Oct 10, 2018

Der Alter said:
Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in the Bible.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in ***PRISON***. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Der Alter said:
In Luk 4:18-19 Jesus states what His earthly ministry was.

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war" those are the captives Jesus preached freedom to. The primary meaning of the word translated "deliverance" is "freedom." 1 Pet 3:18-20 is the passage which some folks think refers to Jesus supposedly preaching in hell.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This passage does not refer to the dead in the grave, sheol, or wherever, since the only people who were saved were alive, on the earth, not dead in the grave, i.e. Noah and his family.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A commentary opines:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit." "

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

ClementofA · Oct 10, 2018

I posted:

If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

Der Alter replied:

Der Alter said:
This is the most absurd, ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Now you are arguing that God did not know what He was talking about, that people He has destroyed cannot be actually forgotten. Do you want to tell God that He can't actually forget people's sins too?

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do you take that literally that God will forget something? Do you also take all other Scriptures literally? Should we take it literally that God has "feathers" & "wings"? Or that people should pluck out their eyes that offend them? Will God literally cast sins into the depths of the sea? If God literally forgets something is He flawed or not omniscient anymore?

Der Alter said:
Ezekiel 21:31-32
(31) And I [יהוה/YHWH vs. 28] will pour out my indignation upon you, [the wicked, vs. 3] I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
(32) You will be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] have spoken it.

This commentary applies the passage to a nation, not individuals: "Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish." (biblehub)

The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

Ezek.16:53 But I will restore Sodom and her daughters from captivity, as well as Samaria and her daughters. And I will restore you along with them. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state. You and your daughters will also return to your former state

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Universalism is Not in the Bible

Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads