Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

DamianWarS · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
I believe souls are conscious, the real source of consciousness in fact, and that no conscious being would want to be trapped in a microbial worm or a fetus that is visually indistinguishable from a chick fetus.

ok so you believe the joining of soul and flesh is not upon conception. So arguably abortion before the incarnation of the soul is morally neutral.

This brings out a bunch of questions such as If not conception then when? And if we as humans can control the life of this pre-incarnate fetus then can it not be said we still manipulate God's hand of when the soul is incarnate and when it is not?

Scripture tells us the Word became flesh so when did this happen? upon conception or some other time? Orthodox Christianity vehemently will say it was upon conception so if you accept the same how does this knowledge influence our knowledge of when the soul and flesh are joined together in humans?

Your main argument seems to be this aversion towards a sentient soul being trapped in a early development of a fetus but what do you think it was like for God to become a new born baby? Is there not some comparison here? Would it have been ok for Mary to abort here baby early in development? Of course Orthodox theology tells us the incarnation of the Word was upon conception not birth so if God can accept this humble position then why should a human soul be spared from this? Even if God simply become a full grown adult man does this still not dwarf in comparison to a fetus having a soul?

You might have something if God himself didn't go through the same process but since he did, regardless when you think it happened, we cannot say anything to the misery of development that a human soul may have to endure.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
As far as Psalm 139:15 and Jer 1:5.

What makes you believe that these verses are not solely talking about God' s omnipresence of time?

I admit that Jer 1:5 is ambiguous, but not Psalm 139:15. It is either a metaphor or a description of preconceived existence of the soul.

Why I believe this is because of numerous empirical experiences which are not admissible in such a debate. Just as in science anecdotal evidence (personal experience) is not considered reliable data.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Ps
139:15 [ Hebrew Font Size: LXX | My substance was not hid (8738) from thee, when I was made (8795) in secret, and curiously wrought (8795) in the lowest parts of the earth.

Where does it say anything about an unformed body?

Which you wrote at the end of the verse and was not included in the KJV.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

DamianWarS said:
This brings out a bunch of questions such as If not conception then when?

Whenever God decides. I believe in omnipotence. What practical significance would an answer to this question make? Sooner or later, it doesn't matter theologically.

DamianWarS said:
And if we as humans can control the life of this pre-incarnate fetus then can it not be said we still manipulate God's hand of when the soul is incarnate and when it is not?

Yes, when the soul is incarnated it is subject to human free will, but that has no bearing on when the soul was created.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Scripture tells us the Word became flesh so when did this happen?

Christ's soul is uncreated and CLEARLY existed before He incarnated.

DamianWarS said:
upon conception or some other time?

Some other time as in never. Uncreated.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Ps
139:15 [ Hebrew Font Size: LXX | My substance was not hid (8738) from thee, when I was made (8795) in secret, and curiously wrought (8795) in the lowest parts of the earth.

Where does it say anything about an unformed body?

Which you wrote at the end of the verse and was not included in the KJV.

The word substance is also translated as "frame" and "bones".

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Ps
139:15 [ Hebrew Font Size: LXX | My substance was not hid (8738) from thee, when I was made (8795) in secret, and curiously wrought (8795) in the lowest parts of the earth.

Where does it say anything about an unformed body?

Which you wrote at the end of the verse and was not included in the KJV.

Here are the other 2 verses where the same Hebrew word is used:

Deu 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might H6108 of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

Job 30:21
Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong H6108 hand thou opposest thyself against me.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
The word substance is also translated as "frame" and "bones".

Yes bones. Strongs 06108. Bones are not the same as a soul being created before conception. Bones or what you call frame are created before a mom even knows she was prego ...ie in secret...but God knows of the formation and He knew everyone before conception.

Kenny'sID · Oct 8, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Why should two people having sex not think that the responsibility of a baby could be an outcome of their self-centered desire to have sex?

Or did God instill in us a very strong desire to have sex because our self centered desire to otherwise not bother would go against his order to be fruitful and multiply? Meaning, following what God wanted us to do and made it very uncomfortable for us not to do, is actually far from self centered but just as he intended things.

Just another way to see it.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
Here are the other 2 verses where the same Hebrew word is used:

Deu 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might H6108 of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

Job 30:21
Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong H6108 hand thou opposest thyself against me.

This doesnt answer where you got the last line of an unformed body. Unformed body was not found in that verse.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Yes bones. Strongs 06108. Bones are not the same as a soul being created before conception. Bones or what you call frame are created before a mom even knows she was prego ...ie in secret...but God knows of the formation and He knew everyone before conception.

you are focused on bones and ignoring frame, substance, power and might

This is Strong's defintinon:
`otsem: power, bones, might

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
This doesnt answer where you got the last line of an unformed body. Unformed body was not found in that verse.

It's not a body. It is one's true might and power that is formed, your soul. Mights are also a category of angels in Thessalonians.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
you are focused on bones and ignoring frame, substance, power and might

This is Strong's defintinon:
`otsem: power, bones, might

Where is "Your eyes saw my unformed body." Found in verse 15?

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
This doesnt answer where you got the last line of an unformed body. Unformed body was not found in that verse.

Interesting, Powers and Mights are both categories of angels in Ephesians actually.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Where is "Your eyes saw my unformed body." Found in verse 15?

It's not. No translation says that.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Where is "Your eyes saw my unformed body." Found in verse 15?

New International Version
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

New Living Translation
You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.

English Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

Berean Study Bible
My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

New American Standard Bible
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

King James Bible
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, when I was formed in the depths of the earth.

Contemporary English Version
Nothing about me is hidden from you! I was secretly woven together out of human sight,

Good News Translation
When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there--

Holman Christian Standard Bible
My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was formed in the depths of the earth.

International Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from you while I was being crafted in a hidden place, knit together in the depths of the earth.

NET Bible
my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.

New Heart English Bible
My frame wasn't hidden from you, when I was made in secret, woven together in the depths of the earth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And my bones were not hidden from you; when I was made in secret, I went down to the lower parts of the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, when I was being skillfully woven in an underground workshop.

JPS Tanakh 1917
My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

New American Standard 1977
My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth.

Jubilee Bible 2000
My body was not hid from thee, even though I was made in secret and brought together in the lowest parts of the earth.

King James 2000 Bible
My frame was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

American King James Version
My substance was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and curiously worked in the lowest parts of the earth.

American Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
My bone is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: and my substance in the lower parts of the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
My bones were not hidden from thee when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth.

English Revised Version
My frame was not hidden from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
My substance was not hid from thee when I was made in secret, and curiously formed in the lowest parts of the earth.

World English Bible
My frame wasn't hidden from you, when I was made in secret, woven together in the depths of the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
New International Version
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

New Living Translation
You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.

English Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

Berean Study Bible
My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

New American Standard Bible
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

King James Bible
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, when I was formed in the depths of the earth.

Contemporary English Version
Nothing about me is hidden from you! I was secretly woven together out of human sight,

Good News Translation
When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there--

Holman Christian Standard Bible
My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was formed in the depths of the earth.

International Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from you while I was being crafted in a hidden place, knit together in the depths of the earth.

NET Bible
my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.

New Heart English Bible
My frame wasn't hidden from you, when I was made in secret, woven together in the depths of the earth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And my bones were not hidden from you; when I was made in secret, I went down to the lower parts of the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, when I was being skillfully woven in an underground workshop.

JPS Tanakh 1917
My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

New American Standard 1977
My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth.

Jubilee Bible 2000
My body was not hid from thee, even though I was made in secret and brought together in the lowest parts of the earth.

King James 2000 Bible
My frame was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

American King James Version
My substance was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and curiously worked in the lowest parts of the earth.

American Standard Version
My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
My bone is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: and my substance in the lower parts of the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
My bones were not hidden from thee when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth.

English Revised Version
My frame was not hidden from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
My substance was not hid from thee when I was made in secret, and curiously formed in the lowest parts of the earth.

World English Bible
My frame wasn't hidden from you, when I was made in secret, woven together in the depths of the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.

My point ....u wrote the verse as follows in your OP...in fact you keep rewriting your original post.

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body.
Psalm 139:15

The red is not found in the KJV.

Fascinated With God · Oct 8, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
My point ....u wrote the verse as follows in your OP...in fact you keep rewriting your original post.

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body.
Psalm 139:15

The red is not found in the KJV

Apologies, that is the next verse.

New International Version
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

New Living Translation
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

English Standard Version
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Berean Study Bible
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

New American Standard Bible
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

King James Bible
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Christian Standard Bible
Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all my days were written in your book and planned before a single one of them began.

Contemporary English Version
but with your own eyes you saw my body being formed. Even before I was born, you had written in your book everything about me.

Good News Translation
you saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all my days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began.

International Standard Version
Your eyes looked upon my embryo, and everything was recorded in your book. The days scheduled for my formation were inscribed, even though not one of them had come yet.

NET Bible
Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.

New Heart English Bible
Your eyes saw my body. In your book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there were none of them.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And my eyes saw my germination upon your Scriptures; all these things were written; behold, the days were cut short, and there was no person in them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Your eyes saw me when I was only a fetus. Every day [of my life] was recorded in your book before one of them had taken place.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance, And in Thy book they were all written-- Even the days that were fashioned, When as yet there was none of them.

New American Standard 1977
Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Thine eyes did see my substance yet being imperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which were then formed, without lacking one of them.

King James 2000 Bible
Your eyes did see my substance, being yet unformed; and in your book they were all written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.

American King James Version
Your eyes did see my substance, yet being imperfect; and in your book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

American Standard Version
Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me , When as yet there was none of them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them.

Darby Bible Translation
Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all [my members] were written; [during many] days were they fashioned, when [as yet] there was none of them.

English Revised Version
Thine eyes did see mine unperfect substance, and in thy book were all my members written, which day by day were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thy eyes saw my substance, yet being imperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

World English Bible
Your eyes saw my body. In your book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there were none of them.

Young's Literal Translation
Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 8, 2018

Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

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