Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
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But the sin removed by Baptism isn't just personal sin. It removes original sin and enables the soul to receive Grace lost because of the fall.
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I don't believe baptism removes sin.
That's what Jesus did, Matthew 26:28; John 1:29. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who lay down his life for his sheep, John 10:11. He came to reconcile us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18; Romans 5:11. He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6, and the only name by which we can be saved, Acts of the Apostles 4:12.
Jesus needs no-one and nothing else to save us; he is enough. On the cross he said "it is finished"; he has done it all.
If someone receives Jesus, believes in his atoning death, confesses their sin and asks forgiveness, they are forgiven 1 John 1:9, have peace with God, Romans 5:1 and have eternal life, John 3:36; 1 John 5:12.
If they were to die at that point, or soon after, without being baptised, they would still be saved and belong to God.
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My friend please bare with me
....Iif they didn't know Jesus said we must be Baptized and weren't rejecting what Jesus taught about Baptism, I think you are right. What exactly the obstacle that prevented them from believing what Jesus meant will be reckoned with God. The theif on the cross would have gotten baptized If he could have, just as the eunuch did who was converted by Philip.,Baptism is an entering into something and in this case another person's life. John the Baptist was the most righteous man of human generation. He was a man of severe penance. He is the one man who testified to the Truth of Jesus. Those Baptized into his life received the help to repent and prepare their souls to receive Christ and to survive the judgement that comes with proximity to God . To not be offended by Him. John's Baptism was a real change to the soul because it was an entering into his life. If there were no real change to the soul the admonitions make no sense since those who failed to produce what his baptism offered faced eternal consequences. That's a soul thing.
Luke 20:4
Did the baptism of John come from heaven, or was it of human origin?”
To ask that question one must believe that Baptism is an entering into that is real.
God serves His creation. Every time we produce another body organized in such a way that it can receive a human soul God creates another. Baptism is like that. We do this God does that. You are right in believing Jesus doesn't need Baptism to save us, we do. Baptism is a necessary act of faith because that's how can know we enter into His life. Even though it isn't the only way Jesus can save us it is the way He said salvation is entered into and that makes Baptism a guarantee to do what He said it would.
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My friend please bare with me
If someone is saved, they are saved. Whether another person says "now you must be baptised", or not, doesn't change their salvation or make it any more complete or valid.
The new Christian may wish to be baptised, to confess their faith and witness to the new life that is in them; or they might not think of it - especially if they were baptised as a baby.
He might have done, or he might not have realised the importance of it. Whatever, the fact is that he wasn't baptised, and yet Jesus still said, Today you will be with me in paradise".
Baptism apparently means, or comes from the word which means, to immerse.
So you could be baptised in water, in the Spirit - or, I would guess, in any other substance possible.
What John did, in baptising people for the forgiveness of their sins, was totally new.
The Jews still had the temple and the sacrificial system. When they sinned, they went to the priest, sacrificed an animal and were forgiven. They were never immersed in water. Apparently the only people who were ever baptised were Gentiles who wanted to convert to the Jewish faith.
Because baptism for forgiveness of sin was something new, the Pharisees were uncertain if it came from God. Jesus asked them what they thought - was it from God, or only John's idea?
Other way around - God saves us forgives our sin, reconciles us to himself and gives eternal life, SO we make our response to his love and grace by being baptised. Salvation first; baptism second (if at all.)
That's not what Jesus said, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, John 6:53.
Eternal life is in Jesus, not baptism.
If we are the kind of person who need something physical and tangible to hold onto and say "I know I have new life"; baptism could be that. But if someone was not baptised after becoming a born again Christian, they'd still be saved.
No.
That would mean that Jesus himself wasn't enough; that he went through all that agony on the cross for nothing. If a person could be saved just by giving a testimony and being immersed in water, Jesus wouldn't have been needed.
No; baptism is not magic.
It is not the water that gives us new life, forgives our sin, reconciles us to God, gives us the Holy Spirit and every spiritual blessing; it is Jesus.
Paul says that the Holy Spirit is a deposit, which guarantees our future inheritance as heirs of God, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14 - not baptism.
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Jesus never said "in some spiritual manner," and you are doing exactly what I said to the Baptist - interpreting the words of Christ through your own particular theological lenses without any reference to the Early Fathers, who never taught a "spiritual flesh and blood" of Christ in the Eucharist.
John 6:63 is taken out of context by Protestants who wish to deny the rest of the Scriptures, particularly those in which our Lord said "This IS my Body, this IS my Blood" Jesus never gave us any wiggle room in the Upper Room when He said this. So you have a problem. You are making the Scriptures contradict, which means that one of the interpretations is wrong.
1. The Early Fathers taught to a man, even heretics, that the Eucharist is the real and true Body and Blood of Christ, not some "spiritual flesh and blood."
2. The idea of a "spiritual flesh and blood" did not start until the Protestant Rebellion against Rome started. You cannot find it in the writings of the Church prior to that, or in the understandings of the Church Fathers.
3. Therefore, there must be another understanding of what Christ was teaching in John 6:63. Looking at this verse in context of this event, we see that the majority of the people there understood Jesus literally and turned away in confusion/disgust. Jesus states the reason for this: they have not been "quickened" by the Spirit of God, that is, they have not "ears to hear, nor eyes to see."
Jesus is saying that in order to understand what He has just said, you must hear spiritually (be quickened by the Spirit). The hearing of the flesh profiteth nothing, it is the hearing of the spirit which leads us to Christ.
Do you also realize that if one takes your interpretation literally, you just nullified the Cross and our salvation because if the "flesh profiteth nothing" (in your interpretation), then that means that a death in the flesh for our salvation also means nothing!!! This would mean that you are among those who are Gnostics who feel that there is nothing good in the flesh and that spirit is all that matters.
You really need to rethink your position.
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Who said I do?
Let me make it very clear. The ONLY proper mode of baptism is that which the Early Church practiced: full immersion (preferably three times in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Only full immersion is the proper sign of our death, burial, and resurrection in Christ.
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The Good Thief was still in the Old Covenant. The New Covenant, and baptism into Christ, had not started yet. Therefore, the Good Thief had no need to be baptized because he was a circumcised Jew living in the Old Covenant. What he did was to return to his covenant vows by a profession of faith to Christ. He didn't need to be baptized into the covenant community (i.e. the Church) because he was already a member of the covenant community by his circumcision.
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Jesus didn't teach some faux idea of "the rapture of the Church" either, but apparently the ice cream and pickle induced dreams of a Scottish lass hold more weight than a good understanding of the Bible.
In other words, we can find anything we want to if we twist and torture the Scriptures hard enough.
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I hope you're not suggesting that those who administer the Holy sacrament of baptism to a child are "twisting and torturing" Scripture.
The words, "you shall baptise children" may not be there, but there are reasons to suggest that this sacrament is for all.
i) people say "babies can't repent or profess faith, so they can't be baptised". Well male babies aged 8 days could not consent to circumcision nor declare their wish to be part of God's covenant - yet they were, and still are. People decide for them; their own faith does not come into it.
ii) Jesus welcomed and blessed children.
iii) He did not tell his disciples to baptise and teach everyone except children; he didn't mention baptising children at all.
iv) We are not told that the jailer had children in his household, but we are not told that he didn't. If he had had; they were baptised when the head of the household was.
v) Baptism in Scripture - and remember, it's only mentioned in regard to adults - is about people showing that either they are sorry for their sins and wish to repent, or that they have already been saved and are demonstrating what has happened to them. (Dying to sin and being raised to new life.)
The Gospel, though, is also that none of us can earn God's love; that Jesus died for us long before we were born and knew anything about it. This is why baptism is fitting for babies - they can't earn God's love, favour or grace.
If you still see this as an attempt to "twist and torture" Scripture to fit a doctrine; so be it.
It's not MY doctrine, I'm just trying to explain the reasons behind it.
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I do not know anything that has been said on this subject but I am going to throw in my two cents.
Acts 2:38-39 tells us that the Holy Ghost is promised to all those who get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins having repented first. Therefore baptism is a point of contact for faith, like the handkerchiefs and aprons with Paul, wherein we become risen with Christ through faith in the operation of the Lord.
It is identifying with His death, burial, and resurrection; and in 1 Peter 3:20-21 it becomes clear that baptism doth also now save us, and v.20 of that passage shows that it is water baptism that is being spoken of.
Now in Mark 16 we find that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, while in John 3:16 the less absolute term should is used when referring to faith without baptism. However in Mark 16 it is not saying that failing to be baptized will condemn you; for the condemnation is only to those who will not believe.
So my take on it is that baptism seals the deal. It is like circumcision of the Old Testament, which is spoken of in Romans 4 as a seal of the righteousness which one has before one receives that seal.
Also, I would say that simply calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth will also seal the deal; because in Romans 10:13 the word shall is also used.
So baptism, while not necessary for salvation, can serve as a great benefit to one's faith and the Holy Spirit is also absolutely promised to the one who gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Also, if baptism does save, then baptism in titles would not suffice because of Acts 4:10-12.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.
There is no other way in to the kingdom except by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. You cannot earn it or work your way in. It is by His unmerited favour alone.
The wages of sin is death.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Whoever tries to get in by their works, the reward is not reckoned of grace but of debt. That means you are earning wages before the Lord. Now please take a wild look at Isaiah 64:6.
Acts 2:38-39 tells us that the Holy Ghost is promised to all those who get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins having repented first. Therefore baptism is a point of contact for faith, like the handkerchiefs and aprons with Paul, wherein we become risen with Christ through faith in the operation of the Lord.
It is identifying with His death, burial, and resurrection; and in 1 Peter 3:20-21 it becomes clear that baptism doth also now save us, and v.20 of that passage shows that it is water baptism that is being spoken of.
Now in Mark 16 we find that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, while in John 3:16 the less absolute term should is used when referring to faith without baptism. However in Mark 16 it is not saying that failing to be baptized will condemn you; for the condemnation is only to those who will not believe.
So my take on it is that baptism seals the deal. It is like circumcision of the Old Testament, which is spoken of in Romans 4 as a seal of the righteousness which one has before one receives that seal.
Also, I would say that simply calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth will also seal the deal; because in Romans 10:13 the word shall is also used.
So baptism, while not necessary for salvation, can serve as a great benefit to one's faith and the Holy Spirit is also absolutely promised to the one who gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Also, if baptism does save, then baptism in titles would not suffice because of Acts 4:10-12.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.
There is no other way in to the kingdom except by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. You cannot earn it or work your way in. It is by His unmerited favour alone.
The wages of sin is death.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Whoever tries to get in by their works, the reward is not reckoned of grace but of debt. That means you are earning wages before the Lord. Now please take a wild look at Isaiah 64:6.
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Baptism brings us into Jesus (Galatians 3:27).
That's why Jesus said Mark 16:16.
Paul was not contradicting his own teaching of the necessity of baptism for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12).
Instead, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, and Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, mean that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
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He did (John 6:63).
The bread and wine of the Eucharist/Communion are Jesus Christ's physical flesh and blood, but the manner by which the bread and wine become His flesh and blood is spiritual, by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7). Otherwise, the bread and wine would cease to appear and taste as bread and wine.
John 6:63 means that flesh by itself cannot give us eternal life. John 6:63b is not contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to the flesh. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled in the flesh (Luke 24:39). So "spirit" in John 6:63 does not mean "wholly apart from the flesh".
Compare how obedient Christians can be called "spiritual" even while they are in fleshly bodies (Galatians 6:1).
Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).
Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.
Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).
And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.
So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
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Note that Romans 4:4 does not apply to the ultimate salvation of those who are already Christians, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).
For Christians do not become the employees of Jesus Christ, but must become His willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) (Revelation 1:1), forsaking everything that they have (Luke 14:33).
On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).
Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
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No it doesn't.
Otherwise my humanist cousins and atheist brothers, who were all baptised as babies, would be in Christ - or at the very least, interested church goers.
With regards to adult baptism, I had been a Christian for some years before being baptised. In fact, if I had not already been forgiven, saved and knew something of the Bible and the love of God, I would not have requested adult baptism
If someone says that Jesus saves but that to have "ultimate salvation" you need baptism, that's saying that Jesus only did part of the job; that his atoning death was not enough.
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You are not only wrong, your answers, both in this post and throughout the thread have shown an amazing lack of knowledge of what the Christian faith has taught from the beginning.
The reason that people fall away from Christ is that we are not robots. Covenant means relationship, and like any relationship, we can chuck it and go our own way. The idea of "once saved - always saved" is a false idea of salvation based on a forensic soteriology which the Church never knew.
According to the Church and the Early Fathers, as well as the principles of "covenant cutting," one is not in the covenant until one goes through the ceremony of covenant cutting. The analogy we have in Scripture is marriage, and you do not get married by sitting around thinking of the other person and then declaring yourself married. You must go through a wedding ceremony and finalize that ceremony in the nuptial bed. Without either of these, you can think all the sweet thoughts you wish about some other person, but you are not married to them.
Baptism is the "wedding ceremony" of Christianity and the Eucharist is the nuptial bed where the two become one flesh. Christ enters us (if you can't see the parallels, you need glasses here) and his Flesh enters into and unites with our flesh to produce new life - the "new man" St. Paul speaks about.
Honestly, please get Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER - Dominion by Covenant and read it. Sutton is a Protestant, so you won't get Catholic cooties by reading it, but it will educate you properly in covenant principles.
After that, get Patrick Seamus O'Hara's book THE DANCE OF ISAIAH, which corrects some of Sutton's Calvinist errors in an otherwise good book of covenant principles.
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justbyfaith
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All of that to give your own view, contrary to the biblical teaching of Romans 4:4.
All of that to give your own view, contrary to the plain teaching of Isaiah 64:6.
There is a time and a place for everything. If the Holy Spirit attempts to do one work, and you attempt to prohibit that work, you will be held accountable by the Lord. This is is why the Bible teaches that as brothers and sisters in Christ, we are to speak the same things. If you are going to say things that are contradictory to what has just been said previously, you need to provide information that is reconciling of the scriptures that may now seem to have come into contradiction to each other, so that the Bible does not seem to contradict itself in certain people's eyes. Otherwise you are not a good minister of Jesus Christ but may even be a false teacher. I make exceptions for those who have reconciled verses for years and have simply begun to grow weary of the work that it takes to reconcile the scriptures in people's eyes.
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Yes we are not employees as believers; however it is the unbeliever who attempts to earn salvation before God and thus who earns wages for his behaviour. An unbeliever is never sanctified according to the latter part of your post;
and therefore Isaiah 64:6 applies to him.
A person who is trusting his works to save him is an unbeliever.
A doulos is someone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ and who loyally serves Christ out of love for Him. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."
Salvation 2 Corinthians 5:17 style is by grace through faith alone. It means a transformed heart: the person is now a sheep and not a dog or a pig. The devil is not Omnipotent and can never change one of Jesus' sheep back into a dog or pig once they have been transformed into a sheep.
Works done to serve the Lord always stem out of the new birth. If a person ever does stop doing those works, it is either because they have simply grown weary in well-doing and have desired to retire from ministry or else they have lost their salvation. I do not presume to judge the former thing as being the latter. One cannot expect a minister to keep going his whole life when the enemy is fighting so hard against him that he does not think that he can continue. Jesus Christ was the only one who was truly perfect. Yes, He requires perfection for salvation; but this perfection is provided for us in the substitution. We stand forgiven as saints of the Most High; and even if we blow it, the Holy Spirit dwells within us and will show us our sin so that we can confess it to Him and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. Everything will come to light.
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