Many Do Not Believe Believers Will Be Changed?

ewq1938 said:

Party A is already at the destination waiting for party B to be caught up and arrive to be "with them in the clouds".

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Party A is caught up with Party B at the last trumpet on that Day.

Are you saying that Party A were at destination before Last Trumpet sounded on that Day (definite article)?

Seville90210 said:

I like to hear your opinions too from time to time as I know the truth is in you, and your desires are in His words. Those are great verses as well, especially from the books you got them from: Isaiah 64 and 1st Corinthians. God only reveals His mysteries to those who honestly loves and abide in His truth. Blessed are you Handmaid, your eyes see what others cannot.

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I am just amazed that Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit can disagree so much with each other.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I am just amazed that Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit can disagree so much with each other.

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They're still kinda fleshy as how Paul describes here. It's also unfortunate they think they have the holy spirit but do not. Least a few on this forum I can pinpoint who loves to start arguments. I think we would agree the HS will not tell one Christian one thing and tell another Christian something contradicting.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 New Living Translation (NLT)
1 Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. 2 I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, 3 for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world?

ewq1938 said:

Yes .

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Interesting.

ewq1938 said:

When a Christian dies, do they go to Heaven or remain on the Earth?

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They are with Christ.
We are in a time lag where that day has come for them but we are yet to approach that day. Yet it is the same day event for all.

To wrap your head around it the Trumpet has sounded for them and they have arrived at the destination.

To be raptured with them we need to either die in Christ or wait for them to come for us. That day accompanies them and we are entering his rest day which is that one day to the Lord in Zechariah 14 at the Lord's Appearing that Paul beheld immediately after his departure (2 Timothy 4:6-8).

I asked you have they arrived at the destination before the last trumpet?

You said yes.

But if they have arrived at their destination then that day has come for them and they have entered God's eternal rest day.

This further implies the togetherness with them means we too as party B are hopping onto the same bus and our rapture or catching up can be today if we die in Christ.

Paul elaborates on this turn by turn aspect of harparzo (catching up) at the Lord's Appearing.

shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them in turn also that love his appearing.

Did Paul's turn come first?

Yes.

Then he was caught up onto Christ because that day has come for him and was yet to come for those he was comforting that will eventually get their turn.

When I answered you interesting I was to unravel it for you without simantics involved.

You now in addressing my reply will either do so with an astounding yes or you will revert to simantics.

Semantics is the study of meaning in language. It can be applied to entire texts or to single words. For example, "destination" and "last stop" technically mean the same thing, but students of semanticsanalyze their subtle shades of meaning.

So we agree both the departed and the living are going to the same destination but you may use the word rapture to only the living in contention to muddle the meaning by applyimg a term suggesting a different catching up to the same destination which introduces a complication in language to suggest two different paths to the same destination.

You need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there exists two paths to the same destination.

Either way the ball is in your court.

Remove that simantic of the usage of the term rapture as only applying to the living then you remove the complication in the sentence by agreeing that the departed and the living are being caught up in turn.

Seville90210 said:

I think we would agree the HS will not tell one Christian one thing and tell another Christian something contradicting.

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yes we agree.

History why people believe in no Spiritual body:

It just comes down too traditions of man, the Catholics which were the founders of modern Christianity and spread it world wide, had the belief that on the last trump the dead will be raised. The Catholics took everything literal/flesh, thinking like zombies we will be raised from the dead and our flesh bodies will live forever with God. Why cutting off a head or burning the body was a sin, because it meant they could never be raised from the dead and can not have eternal life. Same is true if you look at Catholic idea of hell, a real fire burning bodies, people with gluttony eat all day but are never full..etc. When Luther nailed the arguments against the church on the door, he still believed in the Catholic religion and lutherism was very close to Catholic. Same with the Anglean Church, they kept everything basically Catholic just didn't want to listen to the Pope. So for thousands of years the same traditions of man were passed down, and spread to new religions which where just off shoots of the protestant parent religion, which was an off shoot of the Catholic church.

Scripture of why there is a spiritual body:

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.


I think Paul explained it rather well, there are two bodies. Our soul is placed into a flesh body, when we die we are changed in that our soul is released from the flesh and takes on it's original spiritual body. The Bible clearly states on more then one occasion, that flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Why? The flesh is evil. Why do you think we were placed in flesh bodies for this test called life? The flesh will constantly be tempting us, it is weak and it's only desire is to survive even if that means doing evil. You are starving, the flesh will suggest to your spirit/mind "kill that man, take his money to buy food so you do not die".


Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Mal'ak said:

History why people believe in no Spiritual body:

It just comes down too traditions of man, the Catholics which were the founders of modern Christianity and spread it world wide, had the belief that on the last trump the dead will be raised. The Catholics took everything literal/flesh, thinking like zombies we will be raised from the dead and our flesh bodies will live forever with God. Why cutting off a head or burning the body was a sin, because it meant they could never be raised from the dead and can not have eternal life. Same is true if you look at Catholic idea of hell, a real fire burning bodies, people with gluttony eat all day but are never full..etc. When Luther nailed the arguments against the church on the door, he still believed in the Catholic religion and lutherism was very close to Catholic. Same with the Anglean Church, they kept everything basically Catholic just didn't want to listen to the Pope. So for thousands of years the same traditions of man were passed down, and spread to new religions which where just off shoots of the protestant parent religion, which was an off shoot of the Catholic church.

Scripture of why there is a spiritual body:

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.


I think Paul explained it rather well, there are two bodies. Our soul is placed into a flesh body, when we die we are changed in that our soul is released from the flesh and takes on it's original spiritual body. The Bible clearly states on more then one occasion, that flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Why? The flesh is evil. Why do you think we were placed in flesh bodies for this test called life? The flesh will constantly be tempting us, it is weak and it's only desire is to survive even if that means doing evil. You are starving, the flesh will suggest to your spirit/mind "kill that man, take his money to buy food so you do not die".


Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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"The Catholics which were the founders of modern Christianity and spread it world wide"
Ironic how you claim Modern Christianity comes from Catholicism, yet you think they are wrong.

Our resurrected body will be like Lord Jesus' resurrected body.It will have all of capability of Jesus' resurrected body.

nevermind

While I don't agree on all you posted. Christ came stood face to face. Did things..that still blow our minds. Then with ALL of that truth and what not.. they take Him..and NO ONE not one of them stood with Him all left Him. So..whats changed? After Christ died rose AMEAN GLORY TO JESUS! We read.. there are none righteous no not one.

When you believe on Christ you have every lasting life. My flesh can die but.. me..my spirit was made NEW not coming its now..when believed as He said.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

DreamerOfTheHeart said:

I am shocked to have multiple posters respond to my post on the rapture claiming there is no change coming for believers.

Maybe this is just semantics on how they define the word "rapture", but one would have to ignore many verses - and the very concept of the inheritance of the imperishable body - in order to deny this.

The many verses which, otherwise, support this:
Sheep and the Goats -- those not chosen see the believers glorified
Ten Virgins -- Believers are shown to have received their inheritance, and unbelievers are locked out
The transfiguration -- Jesus transfigures into his imperishable body, with Moses and Elijah, also in their imperishable bodies. This form, we know, is what Jesus referred to when he spoke of 'son of man'. A term which relates to 'one like a son of man', which is shown in Daniel and Revelation.

Paul - 'We shall exchange the perishable body with the imperishable', 'we will be changed in a 'twinkling of the eye'', 'we are not yet perfect, but be made perfect when we see him on his return', 'now we see as if through a darkened glass, then we will see clearly', 'we will rise up to meet the Lord and live with him in the clouds forever', 'where o sin is your sting, death is swallowed up in victory', 'the last enemy is death', 'the Kingdom of God is not of flesh and blood'

the Prophets -- 'those who fail to live even to one hundred will be considered mere infants, cursed by God'

And, so on.

A core part of the message of Jesus is immortality.

Is anyone really teaching that this does not happen, or is this just disagreement with the term "rapture"?

Note: Do not state I am pre or post tribulational rapture. I hold beliefs which may be similar to either, but is different from both.

I will not engage in arguments, there is no question the Chosen will inherit immortal, spiritual bodies. I would not mind hearing, however, if there are people who do not believe this is for them, and why.

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I do agree when Christ returns the dead in Christ will rise first then those that are alive and in Christ will meet them in the air. This is a true statement BUT:

You use the term believers - I know what it takes to be called a believer - what do you call a believer?
Also the main point in the scripture regarding the second coming is to be in Christ. I know what you must do to be in Christ and to be saved: What is your belief?

Blade said:

While I don't agree on all you posted. Christ came stood face to face. Did things..that still blow our minds. Then with ALL of that truth and what not.. they take Him..and NO ONE not one of them stood with Him all left Him. So..whats changed? After Christ died rose AMEAN GLORY TO JESUS! We read.. there are none righteous no not one.

When you believe on Christ you have every lasting life. My flesh can die but.. me..my spirit was made NEW not coming its now..when believed as He said.

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The secret is to know what it means to be a true believer.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I am just amazed that Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit can disagree so much with each other.

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No kidding. Especially on this forum (Eschatology) and about the Rapture (esp. the Pre-Trib Rapture)