Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You must be blind! Friday was the 14th, Saturday the 15th and Sunday the 16th. That is the true chronology. Your problem is you do not understand WHY your theory is impossible. IF Yeshua died on Friday the 15th, then He would have to raise on the 16th...Yom HaBikkurim. NONE of your theory fulfills prophecy or Scripture. Do you understand now that your theory is impossible? Probably not...you will keep repeating the same wrong interpretations.

"But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them” (Antiquities of the Jews 3.10.15)

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep"

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Now, to answer this more directly ...
The "true chronology" you've presented is based upon what hard data? Certainly not the chronology as given in the gospels.

Interestingly enough, the word firstfruits primarily refers to the feast of the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, which is synonymous with the feast of weeks, or Pentecost (Exodus 23:16, 34:22, Leviticus 23:16-21, Numbers 28:26).

Numbers 28:26 — Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.

Leviticus 23:16-21 — Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

You're forcing the firstfruits concept to fit your theological passover interpretation. Firstfruits are the first and best of our increase, and it belongs to God. The statute applied all year, not just on the 16th of Nisan. And if it were to refer to a particular holiday event, it can just as easily belong to the feast of weeks, as it does appear to be connected.
But I'm not looking to argue theology.
Christ was the first and best to be born from the dead, and he belonged to God, as every firstborn male belongs to God. That is the basis of Paul's statement. This scriptural truth hardly requires dismissing three gospels in order to cram Jesus into your theological interpretation.

Colossians 1:18 — And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Numbers 3:13 — Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.

Exodus 22:29 — Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Deuteronomy 18:1-5 — The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them. And this shall be the priest’s due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw. The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him. For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.

Numbers 18:12 — All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.

Numbers 18:26-29 — Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD’S heave offering to Aaron the priest. Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

I grant you, it was a clever idea that made me stop and look into a few things. But ultimately, it doesn't alter what the gospels have to say concerning the physical chronology that actually took place.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I have already explained it to you and gave you the citation. The 16th is Yom HaBikkurim. You have Him being killed on the 15th! Impossible! He died on the 14th. You will NEVER change my mind...because you can't...1 + 1 = 2 period.

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I don't have anyone doing anything. I only quoted scriptures. They say what they say.

Here are the scriptures again:

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

AFrazier said:

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover

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You just don't get it do you...tell me what is wrong with the quote above. What is the 14th? What the 15th? What is the 16th? Why won't you answer my questions to you? You never answered WHY they called Him Yeshua in Matthew 1:21 . You just keep posting the same scriptures over and over like they somehow prove your theory...but in fact they do not...and you do not even know why...

AFrazier said:

Now, to answer this more directly ...
The "true chronology" you've presented is based upon what hard data? Certainly not the chronology as given in the gospels.

Interestingly enough, the word firstfruits primarily refers to the feast of the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, which is synonymous with the feast of weeks, or Pentecost (Exodus 23:16, 34:22, Leviticus 23:16-21, Numbers 28:26).

You're forcing the firstfruits concept to fit your theological passover interpretation. Firstfruits are the first and best of our increase, and it belongs to God. The statute applied all year, not just on the 16th of Nisan. And if it were to refer to a particular holiday event, it can just as easily belong to the feast of weeks, as it does appear to be connected.
But I'm not looking to argue theology.

Christ was the first and best to be born from the dead, and he belonged to God, as every firstborn male belongs to God. That is the basis of Paul's statement. This scriptural truth hardly requires dismissing three gospels in order to cram Jesus into your theological interpretation.

I grant you, it was a clever idea that made me stop and look into a few things. But ultimately, it doesn't alter what the gospels have to say concerning the physical chronology that actually took place.

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You keep quoting regarding the WHEAT firstfruits...Shavuot. Yom HaBikkurim is the BARLEY firstfruits. This is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. This is the day of the counting of the omer. It is not a "clever idea", it is truth. I am not forcing anything, you just won't admit you are wrong.

AFrazier said:

I don't have anyone doing anything. I only quoted scriptures. They say what they say.

Here are the scriptures again:

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

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The scriptures are not wrong...YOU are!

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You just don't get it do you...tell me what is wrong with the quote above. What is the 14th? What the 15th? What is the 16th?

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Clarify your question. What are you wanting to know?
The 14th is the Eve of the Passover. It is the day the passover lambs are sacrificed. It is the day all leaven is removed from the home and destroyed, because there can be no leaven with the sacrifice. The lamb is eaten in the evening, which is before sunset, and into the night. It must be consumed by midnight.
The 15th is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is a holy convocation, and considered a holiday sabbath. The congregation would bring a festive offering, also called a paska.
The 16th is the waving of the sheaf. A portion of the firstfruits are brought and waved before the altar. The count towards Pentecost, historically, began on this day, though current traditions are now different.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The scriptures are not wrong...YOU are!

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I only quoted scriptures. If you're saying something is wrong, you're arguing with the scriptures, not me. Here they are again, just for your ignoring pleasure.

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You keep quoting regarding the WHEAT firstfruits...Shavuot. Yom HaBikkurim is the BARLEY firstfruits. This is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. This is the day of the counting of the omer. It is not a "clever idea", it is truth. I am not forcing anything, you just won't admit you are wrong.

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Negative. I mentioned it in a single post relative to your post. I haven't brought it up otherwise.

And I'm only posting scripture. If something is wrong, it must be the Bible. Here are the scriptures again:

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

I can do this all day. Let me know when you're ready to accept what they have to say.

AFrazier said:

The 14th is the Eve of the Passover. It is the day the passover lambs are sacrificed. It is the day all leaven is removed from the home and destroyed, because there can be no leaven with the sacrifice. The lamb is eaten in the evening, which is before sunset, and into the night. It must be consumed by midnight.
The 15th is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is a holy convocation, and considered a holiday sabbath. The congregation would bring a festive offering, also called a paska.
The 16th is the waving of the sheaf. A portion of the firstfruits are brought and waved before the altar. The count towards Pentecost, historically, began on this day, though current traditions are now different.

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You don't see the problem with your theory??? You have Yeshua killed on the 15th. So when did he raise then?

AFrazier said:

I only quoted scriptures. If you're saying something is wrong, you're arguing with the scriptures, not me. Here they are again, just for your ignoring pleasure.

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

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LOL, I am not ignoring them, I am ignoring YOUR interpretation of them!

So tell me, is this a rebellious rejection of the scriptures on your part? Or are you just so fixated on your theology that you're blind to them?

Years ago, when my kids were still young, I remember this incident where my eldest son sat with me at the kitchen table. I was trying to help him learn his colors. So I would point to a crayon and say, "The color of this crayon is yellow. Now tell me what color it is." And he would reply, "I don't know." So I would repeat myself and say, "I just told you that the crayon is yellow. So tell me what color it is. I just told you." And he would say, "I don't know."

This went on for several minutes until he was in tears from frustration. Although I was giving him the answer, he just couldn't get past his own thoughts, his own conviction that he didn't know the answer, that he couldn't even repeat the answer when it was given.

Our conversation is becoming very much like that day to me.

Your point of view is this:

Jesus died on Friday, the 14th. He had to die on the 14th because Christ is our passover, and the passover was killed on the 14th. Christ is also our firstfruits, so he had to be resurrected on the 16th.

That is your whole argument, and nothing I've shown you has made a dent. You refuse to accept the scripture. According to two conspicuous verses, Jesus was alive and well on the afternoon of the 14th, and had not yet eaten the last supper, nor been arrested, and most certainly had not been crucified. That, my friend, is not an opinion. That is a hard, scriptural fact, found in a pair of verses that I have cited or quoted to you approximately a hundred times now. Please review Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7. The disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. Leaven is not destroyed until noon on the 14th day, and the passover is not slain until about 2:00 in the afternoon. This, too, is a historical fact, not an opinion.

No matter what theological argument you have convinced yourself of, it nevertheless remains a scriptural fact that Jesus was alive and well on the afternoon of the 14th.

You say I'm wrong. I say, prove it with hard facts if you can. Show me how the disciples came to him on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed, if he was already crucified.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You don't see the problem with your theory??? You have Yeshua killed on the 15th. So when did he raise then?

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On Sunday, the 17th. Duh.

AFrazier said:

Negative. I mentioned it in a single post relative to your post. I haven't brought it up otherwise.

And I'm only posting scripture. If something is wrong, it must be the Bible. Here are the scriptures again:

And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover (Mark 14:12; cf. Luke 22:7), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? (Mark 14:12; cf. Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7-9) And he sendeth forth two of his disciples (Mark 14:13), Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat (Luke 22:8). Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house (Luke 22:11 cf. Mark 14:14), The Master saith unto thee (Matthew 26:18, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11), My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples (Matthew 26:18). Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples (Luke 22:10-11; cf. Mark 14:14)? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us (Mark 14:15; cf. Luke 22:12). And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover (Mark 14:16; cf. Luke 22:13, Matthew 26:19). And in the evening (Mark 14:17), when the hour was come (Luke 22:14), he cometh with the twelve (Mark 14:17), and sat down with the [...] apostles (Luke 22:14, Matthew 26:20). And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer (Luke 22:14). And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me (Matthew 26:21; Mark 14:18, Luke 22:21).

I can do this all day. Let me know when you're ready to accept what they have to say.

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I accept what THEY say, just not what YOU say they say...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You don't see the problem with your theory??? You have Yeshua killed on the 15th. So when did he raise then?

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And one small correction ... I only quoted the scriptures. THEY have him killed on the 15th.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I accept what THEY say, just not what YOU say they say...

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So what are they saying?

AFrazier said:

On Sunday, the 17th. Duh.

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LOL...NONE of your theory fulfills any prophecy nor is historically accurate. Sunday was the 16th.

AFrazier said:

And one small correction ... I only quoted the scriptures. THEY have him killed on the 15th.

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No they actually don't, you just don't understand what they are actually saying.

AFrazier said:

So what are they saying?

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they are saying you are wrong

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No they actually don't, you just don't understand what they are actually saying.

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Again, if you have the skinny on it, what are they saying?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

they are saying you are wrong

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So very mature. Geez, the whole debate just got solved. I'm so glad you put me in my place with that hard bit of fact.