Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
No, it's not born out by other usages of the word neshama. I just think it's interesting.

What is it that you believe than?

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
What is it that you believe than?

That is a very broad question. With regards to neshama you mean?

DamianWarS · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
There is a popular belief among some Jews that Adam was a super-soul from which all other souls come, because God breathed his neshama into Adam. The largest category of references to neshama speak of all living beings dying when God inhales his neshama.

Is that what you are trying to show too?

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Most Real Christians understand there was a major disconnect between modern Judaism and the Bible based religion of 1st century Jews.

This is the 1st I've ever heard of that. What are your sources?

Daniel Martinovich said:
Some NT verses are pretty clear on the subject that as far as the nation is concerned. The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation that will bear its fruit. Matt 21:43

How do you comport this with statements in Romans 11 that Christianity is an ingrafted branch on the olive tree and that Jews are members of the elect? It gives a Prodigal Son image, from my perspective. In other words, that was then, this is now.

I believe we're nearing the end of the 1st Tribulation which has been going on for 200 years by my count, so a few decades is soon.

Daniel Martinovich · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
That is one of my wild arguments! That all real thought and dramatic new ideas come from the soul and spirit. But don't you see how that is highly suggestive of their being conscious well before the brain? So why would a superconscious spirit want to be tied to an utterly unconscious microbe?

No because you are suggesting the human spirit is not created by God but exists throughout eternity past. To reject a scriptural constant of God being the creator of everything seen and unseen is to reject the scripture. Then there is all the arguments on here about how he procreates with his creation. or grows his creation numbers wise. The laws of nature and natures God is a simple enough answer for that.

Fascinated With God said:
I don't get that from the following verse? 1 Cor. 15:44. "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

That is because that is not a stand alone verse in those paragraphs. Nor for that matter are the Apostles teachings on resurrection stand alone teachings. Start with what Jesus the Word said.

Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to differ with the culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today; as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true.
Here's an example to bring the significance of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who from a family where they were all professing Christians. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It's comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "He is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.

There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not flesh and bone as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.

Here are three Bible stories that demonstrate point #1 again but also point #3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day. 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31.Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.: We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, caught away to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, resurrected, and they have the appearance of angels. If resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are physically. like the angels?

In another example of point #1 we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there "was" a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Also these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Then there is the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Plus he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. So how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of people already resurrected?

This is from my article: Resurrection

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
That is a very broad question. With regards to neshama you mean?

In regards to everything you said about Jewish beliefs.

Daniel Martinovich · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
Only because it is a traditional Jewish belief, I didn't intend to get stuck on it but got multiple know-it-all denials from people who don't understand Jewish theology. It wasn't my intent to linger on the topic.

Well, Hasidics don't do it, that's all I know. I've never seen or heard of it except in Isreal.

Kabbalah is a denomination of Judaism. The Zohar is the book, which is only held universally in esteem by the Orthodox. Conservatives run the range from coy admirers of Kabbalism to overt antipathy. Reforms pay it no attention at all. So the answer is, mostly, yes.

So then I misunderstood because i was just lightly glancing at all the comments before I wrote anything? You don't believe in reincarnation?

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
The modern demonic disconnect that thank God is losing its power over Jewish people happened at the end of the fist century. When a small group of very wicked anti Christ rabbis who blamed the destruction of Jerusalem on Jesus and Christians. the same group were constantly urging the Roman emperor to persecute Christians created modern Judaism as a means for them to control the Jewish populations and their religious beliefs.

I see what you're referring to. I've done some studying on this and the actual historical records of Roman persecutions beyond Nero is fairly scant. So the reason why the NT is the shortest scripture in the world is that the Jews were killing all the Christians they could find. And Nero was deposed by the Senate and committed suicide. The 1st record of any prosecution after that is from Pliny the Younger who finds what he considers a rat's nest of people that won't do the Roman version of the pledge of allegiance as they saw it, and asked Emporer Trajan what to do. Trajan responded to only punish outspoken Christians and to ignore accusations. There are several other examples like that. And Domitian has a horrible rep when the 1st actual allegation to a purge under his reign is 200 years later, and Ireneous, who was from the region allegedly persecuted makes no mention of it in his writings 80 years later.

So, ironically, the Romans get a bad rap and the Jews were the only persecutors before Nero.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
No because you are suggesting the human spirit is not created by God but exists throughout eternity past.

I never said eternity past. That violates the Nicene Creed, Christ is the only uncreated being. You are confusing me with Origen, one of the early most dominant Church fathers. He said that. I don't agree with him.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
So then I misunderstood because i was just lightly glancing at all the comments before I wrote anything? You don't believe in reincarnation?

Whether I do or not is irrelevant, it is not orthodox so no argument using reincarnation as a supporting point is ever going to fly. That's why I said I had no intention of dwelling on it.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
Whether I do or not is irrelevant, it is not orthodox so no argument using reincarnation as a supporting point is ever going to fly. That's why I said I had no intention of dwelling on it.

It doesnt seem hard IMHO to answer yes or no.

Daniel Martinovich · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
This is the 1st I've ever heard of that. What are your sources?

How do you comport this with statements in Romans 11 that Christianity is an ingrafted branch on the olive tree and that Jews are members of the elect? It gives a Prodigal Son image, from my perspective. In other words, that was then, this is now.

First off the subject matter of that chapter begins with chapter 9. Lots of people love to remove the verse you just quoted from its context of chapters 9-11. That being said. Christianity is not the in-grafted branch nor is any form of Judaism the tree. The root of the tree is the faith of Abram not the physical linage Abraham. That is why faith is the condition of being grafted into the tree whether the branches grafted in are the "natural" branches (the physical descendants) or the "unnatural" branches, (non physical descendants.)
I think the scripture is a good enough source and my long term experience with Jewish people and their beliefs. But as far as the creators of modern Judaism. Here is my source:
Alexandrian LXX
Septuagint Comments

Fascinated With God said:
I believe we're nearing the end of the 1st Tribulation which has been going on for 200 years by my count, so a few decades is soon.

Yeah...no. Not even within a million years. We are long past the end time prophecies of the OT age and then the end time prophecies about the four gentile empires that ended 500 years ago. We are in the age of promise that has its own prophecies. Most everybody is so pathetically wrong on this issue and blinded by false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teaches as to the wonderful things God has wrought in the world through the influnce of the Gospel and the Word of God. And to the very slow but continuous growth of this phenomena.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
In regards to everything you said about Jewish beliefs.

Natsumi Lam said:
It doesnt seem hard IMHO to answer yes or no.

Well, I answered the question at length. I'll have to go back and search thru the posts. I don't want to write it again.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
First off the subject matter of that chapter begins with chapter 9. Lots of people love to remove the verse you just quoted from its context of chapters 9-11. That being said. Christianity is not the in-grafted branch nor is any form of Judaism the tree. The root of the tree is the faith of Abram not the physical linage Abraham. That is why faith is the condition of being grafted into the tree whether the branches grafted in are the "natural" branches (the physical descendants) or the "unnatural" branches, (non physical descendants.)
I think the scripture is a good enough source and my long term experience with Jewish people and their beliefs. But as far as the creators of modern Judaism. Here is my source:
Alexandrian LXX
Septuagint Comments

Yeah...no. Not even within a million years. We are long past the end time prophecies of the OT age and then the end time prophecies about the four gentile empires that ended 500 years ago. We are in the age of promise that has its own prophecies. Most everybody is so pathetically wrong on this issue and blinded by false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teaches as to the wonderful things God has wrought in the world through the influnce of the Gospel and the Word of God. An to the very slow but continuous growth of this phenomena.

A good read you might want to pick up by a God inspired author on endtimes prophecy: This Side of the Whirlwind by Steven R Harrel.

It reads like an indepth textbook.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Yeah...no. Not even within a million years. We are long past the end time prophecies of the OT age and then the end time prophecies about the four gentile empires that ended 500 years ago. We are in the age of promise that has its own prophecies. Most everybody is so pathetically wrong on this issue and blinded by false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teaches as to the wonderful things God has wrought in the world through the influnce of the Gospel and the Word of God. An to the very slow but continuous growth of this phenomena.

So we are already resurrected??

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
Well, I answered the question at length. I'll have to go back and search thru the posts. I don't want to write it again.

Then why dont you write yes or no

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
Then why dont you write yes or no

What is this the Inquisition? LOL I just don't care anymore. I spent way too long on the subject already and I've had enough of it.

Fascinated With God · Oct 7, 2018

Natsumi Lam said:
A good read you might want to pick up by a God inspired author on endtimes prophecy: This Side of the Whirlwind by Steven R Harrel.

It reads like an indepth textbook.

What kind of eschatology is it? Pre-millennial, post-millennial, etc..?

Natsumi Lam · Oct 7, 2018

Fascinated With God said:
What is this the Inquisition? LOL I just don't care anymore. I spent way too long on the subject already and I've had enough of it.

Lol u cant answer then i suppose since the answer yes or no is too difficult you are deflecting.

Pro-Life means sex creates souls?

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