The problem with legalism

redleghunter · Oct 5, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Right.
And how does one obey someone they don't love or at least respect?
So, I fail to see the discrepancy when I state we must obey God. It's that word "must" that some take exception to.

Doesn't God DEMAND obedience?

(not that we always will succeed)

I think when we speak of worship and obedience we are speaking of service to God. John Piper had a short note which I would like to share:

What Does It Mean to Serve God

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15). What does that mean?

It means to do what he says in a way that makes him look supremely valuable in himself.
It means to submit to him in a way that makes him look thrilling.

There are ways to submit to God that only make him look threatening, not thrilling. There are ways to do what he says that only call attention to the fact that he is an authority not a treasure.

That kind of service is not the service God commands.

What’s the difference?

The difference is that God has told us not to serve him as though he needed anything.

“He is not served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything” (Acts 17:25).

“The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45).

Both these texts put all the emphasis on God’s giving to us when we serve.

So the kind of service that makes God look valuable and thrilling is the kind that serves God by constantly receiving from God. The key text to describe this is 1 Peter 4:11 —

“Whoever serves, [let it be] as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.”

God is seen as glorious when all our serving is moment-by-moment receiving from God’s supply.

We receive this supply by faith. That is, we trust moment-by-moment that what we need, in serving him, he will supply (“life, breath, and everything”). This is the opposite of being anxious. Such serving is happy. And it makes God look no less authoritative, but infinitely more desirable. This is the glory he means to have. The giver gets the glory.

Therefore, “serve the Lord with gladness” (Psalm 100:2).

Hammster · Oct 5, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
It seems this thread went right back to the claim of salvation by works, so I'll just say this and then leave the thread..

What Jesus said for the reason of parables was this:

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

The parables have the purpose not only of sharing the mysteries of God, but also of separating the sheep from the goats.

Jeremiah 24:7

" "I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart." "

Ezekiel 36:26

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

These things are for today, under the New Covenant.

The most clear picture of this change of heart from God are conversions such as Paul's.. "I was blind, but now I see." Conversions such as mine. But just because these make it more obvious doesn't mean God doesnt change all of us..

While it's our choice to follow Jesus when He calls us out of the world, out of love, it's because He first loved us; not because we had the right mindset or intellect to "get it" when others seemingly can't.

God sanctifies us, from the inside out. It only seems to us, to our limited minds, to be our own work or our own righteousness that got the ball rolling so to speak.

Yes, we chose to follow Him. Yes, He gave us the ability in some indescribable way, He changed us.. our entire life led to the moment of our salvation, indeed, that is the entire purpose. From there, we follow Him.. not by our own ability, but by His finished work.

But, but, but...

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Hammster said:
I don’t do carpet bombs. It’s a sure sign that you’ve lost the argument.

Now, if you have a specific passage, that’s fine. But my history with you is that no matter what passage I post and explain, you just come back with “what about this verse?”, and we get nowhere. So I’m not wasting my time.

I just asked to explain 10 verses using Scripture (5 from each list). For me, that is not hard to do that. As for not bothering to give an explanation because you know it is not going to help me: Well, don't it for me, do it for some the other readers out there who needs that kind of help or advice.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree,
may God's love shine upon you this fine day;
And may your day be good.

Hammster · Oct 5, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I just asked to explain 10 verses using Scripture (5 from each list). For me, that is not hard to do that. As for not bothering to give an explanation because you know it is not going to help me: Well, don't it for me, do it for some the other readers out there who needs that kind of help or advice.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree,
may God's love shine upon you this fine day;
And may your day be good.

You don’t even explain one, but want me to do the work.

Nice.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Emli said:
The Pharisees were legalists, and I believe that everyone here will agree to that. But they were also extremely disobedient to God, though they were following the Law, which is why Jesus said that their father was the devil. Not because they obeyed the Law, but because they were using the Law (and their religious authority) to put burdens on people instead of setting them free, (Isaiah 58 is a great chapter that explains their mindset and what God thought of their actions), and because they were living for their own pride and self-righteousness and not the Glory of God. They did not understand who God is, and they did not understand what mercy means or how love does no harm to a neighbour.

Then comes Jesus and tells everyone that in order to come to Heaven, we would have to actually obey God's commandments, by walking according to Truth (faithfulness to God) and in love, and the Pharisees wanted to kill Him and eventually did. We obey God's commandments by walking in Love, loving God first, then loving our neighbours as well as our enemies through Him and in Him, by the Holy Spirit. Jesus preached obedience to God, but obedience to God's merciful and loving nature rather than obedience to the Law. That is why we must be conformed to the image of God, which is Christ. That is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit in us, but we get there by doing what Jesus did when He was a man. That is how we are sanctified and transformed, by doing what Scripture tells us, worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth. And that is obedience to Christ. We follow His teachings, and He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law, by revealing to us what God wants from us. Which is that we live righteous, holy, loving lives in Him.

We are not saved by our own actions, but we are also not saved by not acting at all. Too many Christians believe that all we need to do is pray and let God be God, but do no works. But how can we become like Jesus unless we let Him lead us to do the things He was doing and has commanded us to do? We are supposed to glorify God in our bodies and be His light to the world. We cannot expect God to do all the work, because He wants us to be His servants and be faithful to His nature, to the new nature that He has given us. If we think that we can refuse to live and love like Jesus did and do the works that He did, in Him, and still be saved, we are deceived. Because we would not be living by God's will or for His Glory.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16

This is not legalism.

I totally agree.

In fact, Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, Matthew 23:23).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Hammster said:
You don’t even explain one, but want me to do the work.

Nice.

I have given explanations and or commentaries many times before. I have no problem in doing that. When people post Scriptures that defends their wrong view, I give them an explanation with Scripture that this is not so. Why you are not doing the same is beyond me. Anyways, if you want, I can lead if you like.

Hammster · Oct 5, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I have given explanations and or commentaries many times before. I have no problem in doing that. When people post Scriptures that defends their wrong view, I give them an explanation with Scripture that this is not so. If you want, I can lead if you like.

I’ve responded to arguments many times before. I have no problem doing that as long as an argument is actually made.

Hazelelponi · Oct 5, 2018

Emli said:
we are also not saved by not acting at all. Too many Christians believe that all we need to do is pray and let God be God, but do no works.

No one is suggesting a sin all you like lifestyles. All any one is trying to say is that without God it's not possible. Otherwise we end up like the Pharisees - following a law without any Spirit..

We are trying to avoid using Pharisaical statements when describing sanctification, because the Bible declares it to be God's work in us, and we have experienced it thusly.

Hammster · Oct 5, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
No one is suggesting a sin all you like lifestyles. All any one is trying to say is that without God it's not possible. Otherwise we end up like the Pharisees - following a law without any Spirit..

We are trying to avoid using Pharisaical statements when describing sanctification, because the Bible declares it to be God's work in us, and we have experienced it thusly.

Right. It appears that the legalists, with their good intentions, are so afraid that grace means a license to sin that they swing the pendulum too far back the other way.

Emli · Oct 5, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
No one is suggesting a sin all you like lifestyles. All any one is trying to say is that without God it's not possible. Otherwise we end up like the Pharisees - following a law without any Spirit..

We are trying to avoid using Pharisaical statements when describing sanctification, because the Bible declares it to be God's work in us, and we have experienced it thusly.

I know. I'm simply trying to show both sides here that everyone is saying the same thing.

You're just not in agreement, because you're quarreling over words.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Explaining the first verse on my 1st list:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
(Hebrews 3:13-14).

"We are told to exhort (i.e. strongly encourage, urge) the brethren daily." We are to exhort the brethren on what? The author of Hebrews is telling the brethren not to be hardened in their hearts in having an evil heart of unbelief (verse 12) as a result of or through the deceitfulness of sin. So sin can deceive us as brethren. It can cause us to have a hardened evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

"For we are made partakers of Christ."

To be a partaker of Christ:

"For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." (Hebrews 12:10).

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:3).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

To not be fruitful in the Lord means we can be cast aside and burned.

5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
(John 15:5-6).

Seeing we are the branches and Christ is the vine, if we as the branches burn, this suggests that we will be burned in the Lake of fire if we do not abide in Christ and be fruitful for his kingdom.

"If we hold fast the beginning of our confidence."

The word "if" here is a condition.

IF we hold fast the beginning of our confidence.

So this is not forced upon us here. No forced salvation going on here.

We have to hold fast the beginning of our confidence.

What kind of confidence is this?

"In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." (Ephesians 3:12).

It's faith. Belief in Jesus as our Savior. Faith in Him. But.... as pointed earlier, we can harden our hearts by the deceitfulness of sin and depart from the living God by having an evil heart of unbelief.

To depart means to leave.
If Rick departs from Chicago airport, that means he is leaving Chicago and he is going to another place.

"...stedfast unto the end;"

Same theme we see in the rest of Scripture.

1. Endure temptation = Receive crown of life (James 1:12).
2. Endure to the end = Be saved (Matthew 24:13).
3. Be faithful unto death = Be given a crown of life (Revelation 2:10).
4. Overcome = Not be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:11).
5. Overcome = Not blot out his name out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Emli said:
I know. I'm simply trying to show both sides here that everyone is saying the same thing.

You're just not in agreement, because you're quarreling over words.

I would like that to be the case, but I am not sure I agree. If I am understanding what the gist of what they are saying, it is highly probable they believe future sin is forgiven them by having a belief on Jesus. I believe we have to confess and forsake sin in order to be saved. I believe just one grievous sin can separate us from God unless we repent (seek God's forgiveness). If this is not the case, then believers are turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Some believers think that we need to be living an excessively sinful lifestyle in order to not be a true believer; But if that is the case, what do they do if they find themselves in a lot of sin one day? Also, is doing a little less evil any better morally speaking than doing lots of evil? In addition, if somebody murders another person just one time and they are not remorseful about it, the crime is no longer less bad just because they did that murder one time. A person does not need to murder excessively or as a lifestyle in order to be bad. It only takes one act of unrepentant murder to be bad. Unless..... they repent (seek God's forgiveness) and forsake that sin.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
No one is suggesting a sin all you like lifestyles. All any one is trying to say is that without God it's not possible. Otherwise we end up like the Pharisees - following a law without any Spirit..

We are trying to avoid using Pharisaical statements when describing sanctification, because the Bible declares it to be God's work in us, and we have experienced it thusly.

Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Hammster · Oct 5, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Explaining the first verse on my 1st list:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
(Hebrews 3:13-14).

"We are told to exhort (i.e. strongly encourage, urge) the brethren daily." We are to exhort the brethren on what? The author of Hebrews is telling the brethren not to be hardened in their hearts in having an evil heart of unbelief (verse 12) as a result of or through the deceitfulness of sin. So sin can deceive us as brethren. It can cause us to have a hardened evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

"For we are made partakers of Christ."

To be a partaker of Christ:

"For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." (Hebrews 12:10).

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:3).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

To not be fruitful in the Lord means we can be cast aside and burned.

5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
(John 15:5-6).

Seeing we are the branches and Christ is the vine, if we as the branches burn, this suggests that we will be burned in the Lake of fire if we do not abide in Christ and be fruitful for his kingdom.

"If we hold fast the beginning of our confidence."

The word "if" here is a condition.

IF we hold fast the beginning of our confidence.

So this is not forced upon us here. No forced salvation going on here.

We have to hold fast the beginning of our confidence.

What kind of confidence is this?

"In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." (Ephesians 3:12).

It's faith. Belief in Jesus as our Savior. Faith in Him. But.... as pointed earlier, we can harden our hearts by the deceitfulness of sin and depart from the living God by having an evil heart of unbelief.

To depart means to leave.
If Rick departs from Chicago airport, that means he is leaving Chicago and he is going to another place.

"...stedfast unto the end;"

Same theme we see in the rest of Scripture.

1. Endure temptation = Receive crown of life (James 1:12).
2. Endure to the end = Be saved (Matthew 24:13).
3. Be faithful unto death = Be given a crown of life (Revelation 2:10).
4. Overcome = Not be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:11).
5. Overcome = Not blot out his name out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5).

This is most likely the message Paul preached in the synagogues when he came to a new city, and transcribed by Luke. But regardless, there’s a distinction that you’ve missed. Here he calls them brethren because the speaker is a Jew talking to Jews. So they were brethren in the traditional sense. But he calls believers “holy brethren” in v. 1. So both groups are addressed, both the believers and unbelievers. The verses you reference are him preaching to the unbelievers and exhorting then to believe.

Hazelelponi · Oct 5, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Of course he was..

We don't believe salvation is dependant upon which minute we happen to die, but rather, salvation is in Christ..

If I stub my toe and say God damn it (speaking of what I stubbed my toe on) will I go to hell if I die before I have a chance to repent of the deed?

Of course not.. to believe that Christ's work is insufficient to save us is a heretical belief, salvation is through Christ alone not Christ + works.

If we belong to Him we will live a changed life, yes, but we won't live a sinless life, and His finished work is sufficient to save.. we cannot and do not save ourselves.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Hammster said:
This is most likely the message Paul preached in the synagogues when he came to a new city, and transcribed by Luke. But regardless, there’s a distinction that you’ve missed. Here he calls them brethren because the speaker is a Jew talking to Jews. So they were brethren in the traditional sense. But he calls believers “holy brethren” in v. 1. So both groups are addressed, both the believers and unbelievers. The verses you reference are him preaching to the unbelievers and exhorting then to believe.

That makes no senes. After the author of Hebrews addresses the "holy brethren" in verse 1, and he makes no mention of unbelievers in-between verses 1-6 before he says,

"Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts,..." (Hebrews 3:7-8).

It also says from the beginning hold fast your confidence stedfast until the end (See Hebrews 3:14).

How can unbelievers hold fast from the beginning a confidence they never had?

GodsGrace101 · Oct 5, 2018

Hammster said:
So God loves unconditionally and you don’t.

Not much of an argument.

You love your kids unconditionally?
No matter what they do?
You'd show more love for them if you set some limits.
Didn't you teach them not to go in the street when they were little? And if they didn't listen...?

Not much of an argument.
Just remember that the Father said the Prodigal Son was LOST and now he was found again. Lost means lost; in the N.T. lost means we don't have salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 5, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Of course he was..

We don't believe salvation is dependant upon which minute we happen to die, but rather, salvation is in Christ..

If I stub my toe and say God damn it (speaking of what I stubbed my toe on) will I go to hell if I die before I have a chance to repent of the deed?

Of course not.. to believe that Christ's work is insufficient to save us is a heretical belief, salvation is through Christ alone not Christ + works.

If we belong to Him we will live a changed life, yes, but we won't live a sinless life, and His finished work is enough to save.. we cannot and do not save ourselves.

But if somebody deceives themselves into thinking they are saved while they commit one sin, what is going to prevent them from committing lots of sin with the thinking they are saved?

What about George Sodini? If David was saved, then he was probably saved, too, right?

To learn about George Sodini (Who was a huge Eternal Security proponent), see this article here.

Emli · Oct 5, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I would like that to be the case, but I am not sure I agree. They believe future sin is forgiven them by having a belief on Jesus. I believe we have to confess and forsake sin in order to be saved. I believe just one grievous sin can separate us from God unless we repent (seek God's forgiveness). If this is not the case, then believers are turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Some believers think that we need to be living an excessively sinful lifestyle in order to not be a true believer; But if that is the case, what do they do if they find themselves in a lot of sin one day? Also, is doing a little less evil any better morally speaking than doing lots of evil? In addition, if somebody murders another person just one time and they are not remorseful about it, the crime is no longer less bad just because they did that murder one time. A person does not need to murder excessively or as a lifestyle in order to be bad. It only takes one act of unrepentant murder to be bad. Unless..... they repent (seek God's forgiveness) and forsake that sin for good.

I agree with both of you. Jesus took all of our sins on the Cross, past and future after we are born-again. We were already forgiven when He died, but we still have to confess our sins to God in order to actually receive that forgiveness in our lives today if we sin. 1 John 1:9. We don't earn the forgiveness, but the Blood of the Lamb cleanses us.

Both sides are saying that many who call themselves Christian will not be saved, but you say that salvation can be lost (to which I agree), they are saying that those who fall away were never saved to begin with. (I say that they were born-again, but never truly surrendered to Jesus). But how does that affect our lives? Does it lead to fear of the Lord either way? I think it does.

No one here has been preaching legalism, nor false grace (unless I have missed a post). But both sides have been accusing the other side of legalism or false grace.

Both sides believe that we are saved by grace through faith, and that we have to conform to the image of Christ and works will follow, and that we cannot do it on our own, but that it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Jason, your posts edify me in Christ, and speak Truth into my heart. They make me a lot more eager and zealous to truly live for God. Hazelelponi's posts fills my heart with the Love of God, also making me more eager to help people and heal people, and to be merciful. It's just two different parts of who God is, and they work well together.

So I ask again, how does these beliefs affect our lives? What does both sides look like in reality? Does it result in conformity to the image of Christ? Does it result in works? Does it result in loving God, and through Him loving our neighbours and our enemies? I think both sides have agreed that our faith should, and if it doesn't, we're not saved.

Now, we know in part and prophecy in part, and we don't know the depths of God's nature or the nature of salvation or how He judges us. But if we are saved, we will through the Holy Spirit know the heart of God. That's what matters the most.

GodsGrace101 · Oct 5, 2018

Hammster said:
Not really.

Sure it is.

The problem with legalism

Thank You Jesus!

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

:sighing:

Psalm 144:1

Growing daughter of God

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

:sighing:

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Growing daughter of God

Well-Known Member

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