Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So they punished these people for the evil practice of sacrificing their children by, let me get this right, by murdering their children.
And anyway, the biblical god didn't seem too upset about the time a certain Jephthah sacrificed his daughter to him.
I am sure you have heard of the Christian apologist William Lane Craig. His take on the slaughter of mothers and their infants tops anything I have ever heard when it comes to excusing biblical genocide. He thinks the men who carried out the slaughter of the mothers and their children were the ones who suffered. Just imagine how they must have been terribly affected he said, having to go from dwelling to dwelling killing all those mothers and their infants.

Oh, the poor dears. You couldn't make it up!

Perhaps without even realizing it, you are using an assumption that death is final.

If death of this mortal body is the end, then the Bible makes little sense. You'd even be correct in your reaction in that case.

But the same Bible says death isn't final.

You can't use this collection of scripture to point to some deaths of innocents and say any version of 'God should not have killed innocents' (e.g. 'murders') when the same collection of scripture says death is only like 'sleeping' and they will all live again.

Innocents that died are actually safely through the test of this temporary body.

They came from God, were watched over by God, and are with God, and will live forever.

But you and I, we have yet to get safely through the test.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Was I off on the numbers or actions taken?

It would help the discussion if you specify about what you think I'm confused on.

Whatever you were trying to describe, the way you presented it I could not recognize as a definite specific passage even recently reading many books in the Old Testament. If you do have a passage in mind, better to quote it accurately in full or reference it, otherwise it can seem only confused, especially if you incorporate your own re-characterizations into it also.
 
Upvote 0

Non sequitur

Wokest Bae Of The Forum
Jul 2, 2011
4,532
541
Oklahoma City, OK
✟45,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Whatever you were trying to describe, the way you presented it I could not recognize as a definite specific passage even recently reading many books in the Old Testament. If you do have a passage in mind, better to quote it accurately in full or reference it, otherwise it can seem only confused, especially if you incorporate your own re-characterizations into it also.
Exodus 20:1-6
Exodus 32:19-20
Exodus 32:27-28
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exodus 20:1-6
Exodus 32:19-20
Exodus 32:27-28

To help us be discussing the same thing, I'm going to quote those in complete passages, from the clear and accurate modern NIV translation:

Exodus 20 NIV
The Ten Commandments

1And God spoke all these words:
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3“You shall have no other gods before me.
4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13“You shall not murder.

14“You shall not commit adultery.

15“You shall not steal.

16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

------------------
Ok, here we have the 10 commandments. Pretty clear stuff.
________________
Next,
Exodus 32 NIV

The Golden Calf

1When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods a who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

2Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, b Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ”14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

15Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.

17When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”

18Moses replied:

“It is not the sound of victory,

it is not the sound of defeat;

it is the sound of singing that I hear.”

19When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”

22“Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

25Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ” 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

---------------------

Ok, here we have the famous story (some may have seen the popular old movie The Ten Commandments also), of the people building and worshipping a Golden Calf, and the consequences of that.

The idol worshippers were destroyed.

In this instance, they were immediately destroyed. Not after years or generations. Why? The reason can be learned if you have been reading from chapter 1 verse 1 until this point, so you have all the context.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Non sequitur

Wokest Bae Of The Forum
Jul 2, 2011
4,532
541
Oklahoma City, OK
✟45,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
To help us be discussing the same thing, I'm going to quote those in complete passages, from the clear and accurate modern NIV translation:

Exodus 20 NIV
The Ten Commandments

1And God spoke all these words:
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3“You shall have no other gods before me.
4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13“You shall not murder.

14“You shall not commit adultery.

15“You shall not steal.

16“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

------------------
Ok, here we have the 10 commandments. Pretty clear stuff.
________________
Next,
Exodus 32 NIV

The Golden Calf

1When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods a who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

2Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, b Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

7Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ”14Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

15Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.

17When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”

18Moses replied:

“It is not the sound of victory,

it is not the sound of defeat;

it is the sound of singing that I hear.”

19When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”

22“Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

25Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ” 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

---------------------

Ok, here we have the famous story (some may have seen the popular old movie The Ten Commandments also), of the people building and worshipping a Golden Calf, and the consequences of that.

The idol worshippers were destroyed.

In this instance, they were immediately destroyed. Not after years or generations. Why? The reason can be learned if you have been reading from chapter 1 verse 1 until this point, so you have all the context.
Would you say this behavior is trying to be incremental, in regards to changing a society, or is trying to immediately change it?
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Would you say this behavior is trying to be incremental, in regards to changing a society, or is trying to immediately change it?

This culling was instant practically. And the why for that you learn only by complete reading from chapter 1 verse 1 through, with real listening. Or perhaps really from Genesis through to this point, as one needs a sense of what going on big-picture wise. Without that big picture in full (as compared to the typical bits and pieces that are incomplete many have), it will not make sense.

(The 'incremental' and 'progressive' (both my own wording) regard laws. These adjectives refer not to events, but to laws, to how micro regulations were given, in sequence, over time, such as the laws on slaves, which were added to, progressively, over time, changing, in a direction, to an eventual new outcome, later in time. Events are typically sudden, but the laws gradually progressed, upwards. For a reason.)
 
Upvote 0

Non sequitur

Wokest Bae Of The Forum
Jul 2, 2011
4,532
541
Oklahoma City, OK
✟45,780.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
This culling was instant practically. And the why for that you learn only by complete reading from chapter 1 verse 1 through, with real listening. Or perhaps really from Genesis through to this point, as one needs a sense of what going on big-picture wise. Without that big picture in full (as compared to the typical bits and pieces that are incomplete many have), it will not make sense.

(The 'incremental' and 'progressive' (both my own wording) regard laws. These adjectives refer not to events, but to laws, to how micro regulations were given, in sequence, over time, such as the laws on slaves, which were added to, progressively, over time, changing, in a direction, to an eventual new outcome, later in time. Events are typically sudden, but the laws gradually progressed, upwards. For a reason.)
Was the 1st commandment an event, law or micro-regulation?
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Was the 1st commandment an event, law or micro-regulation?

Good question! A Law, and it did not work to accomplish the needed outcome, yet, for enough people (but only for some). Israel proved, over and over (this is almost an understatement to say 'over and over', as it was dozens of instances at least) that most of the people would fail to obey the general Laws in the 10 commandments, even though they are clear.

They'd break them instead, over and over and over and over.

This is why the Laws, not being followed, then resulted in the micro regulations (my wording) -- little detailed rules given precisely because the general Law of the 10 commandments would not be followed by too many people.

Thus baby steps.

Little regulations, like little steps, upward out of the morass of evil and wrong, tiny steps up, one at a time, to lift them out of their wrong and bad ways of treating each other.

Little steps they could actually manage.

And this works, over time, in a progression, for a larger portion of people.

Still today, because only some people follow Matthew 7:12, we have to have our own secular micro regulation.

Detailed. (Think Kavanaugh; what if Kavanaugh knew the little rules):
Maryland Rape and Sexual Assault Laws - FindLaw

This is our secular law -- little detailed bits -- because only some people obey "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you", and so instead need micro regulations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
If God desired the end of slavery, he could just end slavery (he never did). Failing that, he could make clear in the Bible that he disapproves and that we should stop it (he never did). Failing that, his earthly representation as Jesus could make it clear that he disapproves (he never did). Failing that, one of the epistle writers could make clear that he disapproves so the Bible could say at least something against slavery (no one ever did). Exodus and Leviticus have extensive lists of laws that ban all sorts of behavior, everything from murder, adultery, incest, rape, inappropriate behavior with animals....why not slavery too?

Israel was one of the smallest tribes in the area. The
problem of slavery didn't start with them, and they were
not the ones driving the trade of people. Would you
rather they took captives or, as with some enemies, just
killed them all?
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
8,125
4,529
✟270,357.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Was God condoning slavery, or merely tolerating it temporarily as a concession to human weakness and hardness of heart, as He did divorce for a while?

By the time of Jesus, slavery ownership by Jews was hedged with so many restrictions that there was a saying: He who buys a slave buys a master to himself.

And NOWHERE in the Bible is slave ownership called a good thing.

Except I have a hard time making that work with the same god that killed people for wrong incense, or made many biblical laws that seem bizzare and stupid to us, he managed to micromange many things, but slavery some how he couldn't?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Except I have a hard time making that work with the same god that killed people for wrong incense, or made many biblical laws that seem bizzare and stupid to us, he managed to micromange many things, but slavery some how he couldn't?
See post #148. This is why there are incremental regulations of slavery, gradually progressing, until we arrive at the radical moment of the 1 page letter of Philemon 1 NIV in the New Testament -- an escaped slave becoming fully the social equal of his previous owner -- which is even more radically equal than too many average Americans often practice today, with zero sense of social superiors and inferiors. To get to Philemon took steps, upward, over time.
 
Upvote 0

Willie T

St. Petersburg Vineyard
Oct 12, 2012
5,319
1,820
St. Petersburg, FL
✟68,979.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm glad you agree that this deity had no problem with slavery.
Well if I am going to say I believe the Bible, what else would I say? As I said, it is OUR laws that we have devised, that decreed it illegal.
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps without even realizing it, you are using an assumption that death is final.

If death of this mortal body is the end, then the Bible makes little sense. You'd even be correct in your reaction in that case.

But the same Bible says death isn't final.

You can't use this collection of scripture to point to some deaths of innocents and say any version of 'God should not have killed innocents' (e.g. 'murders') when the same collection of scripture says death is only like 'sleeping' and they will all live again.

Innocents that died are actually safely through the test of this temporary body.

They came from God, were watched over by God, and are with God, and will live forever.

But you and I, we have yet to get safely through the test.
Your words only demonstrate that you cannot bring yourself to say that the murder of children, at the behest of the deity you worship, is wrong.
Instead, you claim that in death they are only sleeping and will be fast-tracked to some celestial Disneyland to enjoy its delights for all eternity. I only hope the men who were slaughtering those children told them of this before they put them to the sword. I'm sure that would make the children feel much happier about their imminent demise. Yeah right!
A question I have asked numerous times of believers, but have yet to receive an answer, is this. What would you call someone who is capable of going from dwelling to dwelling killing mothers and their children? I would call that person an evil psychopath. What would you call that person? Would you be capable of such a thing and if not, why not?
I won't hold my breath.
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Israel was one of the smallest tribes in the area. The
problem of slavery didn't start with them, and they were
not the ones driving the trade of people. Would you
rather they took captives or, as with some enemies, just
killed them all?
According to the bible, the tribe of Israel had no problem in committing genocide or taking captives in order to make them slaves. As is common, even to the present day, the abused often becomes the abuser.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your words only demonstrate that you cannot bring yourself to say that the murder of children, at the behest of the deity you worship, is wrong.
Instead, you claim that in death they are only sleeping and will be fast-tracked to some celestial Disneyland to enjoy its delights for all eternity. I only hope the men who were slaughtering those children told them of this before they put them to the sword. I'm sure that would make the children feel much happier about their imminent demise. Yeah right!
A question I have asked numerous times of believers, but have yet to receive an answer, is this. What would you call someone who is capable of going from dwelling to dwelling killing mothers and their children? I would call that person an evil psychopath. What would you call that person? Would you be capable of such a thing and if not, why not?
I won't hold my breath.


You are using an assumption that death is final.

If death of this mortal body is the end, then the Bible makes little sense. You'd even be correct in your reaction in that case.

But the same Bible says death isn't final.

You want to use this collection of scripture to point to deaths of innocents and say a version of 'God should not have killed innocents' (e.g. 'murders') when the same collection of scripture says death is only like a doorway and they will all live again.

Innocents that died are actually going to live again the same collection of scripture says.

Don't try to use this collection of scripture to claim it means something else, a final death.

They came from God, were watched over by God, and are with God, and will live forever.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
You are using an assumption that death is final.

If death of this mortal body is the end, then the Bible makes little sense. You'd even be correct in your reaction in that case.

But the same Bible says death isn't final.

You want to use this collection of scripture to point to deaths of innocents and say a version of 'God should not have killed innocents' (e.g. 'murders') when the same collection of scripture says death is only like a doorway and they will all live again.

Innocents that died are actually going to live again the same collection of scripture says.

Don't try to use this collection of scripture to claim it means something else, a final death.

They came from God, were watched over by God, and are with God, and will live forever.
I'm not asking the bible to give any answer. I am saying that you seem unable to say that murdering infants is wrong. Your attempt to justify such a thing by saying you believe they will live again is, quite frankly, extremely distasteful. Not surprisingly you also don't reply to the question as to what kind of person you think is capable of murdering infant after infant and whether or not you could commit such an act and if not, why not. You are in a long line of believers who can't or won't answer that question.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not asking the bible to give any answer. I am saying that you seem unable to say that murdering infants is wrong. Your attempt to justify such a thing by saying you believe they will live again is, quite frankly, extremely distasteful. Not surprisingly you also don't reply to the question as to what kind of person you think is capable of murdering infant after infant and whether or not you could commit such an act and if not, why not. You are in a long line of believers who can't or won't answer that question.

Murderers that don't fully and totally repent will in the Day of Judgment be sent to the "second death".

The death that is final.
 
Upvote 0

Par5

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,013
653
78
LONDONDERRY
✟69,175.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Murderers that don't fully and totally repent will in the Day of Judgment be sent to the "second death".

The death that is final.
That's what you believe, but I am not talking about some imagined afterlife, I am asking if you believe that murdering children is wrong, even if you believed that they were murdered at the behest of the god you worship?
At the moment I am taking your refusal to answer that question to mean that you approve of the murder of children as recorded in the bible. Most people wouldn't even have to think as to how to answer such a question. What is your problem?
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,546
6,064
64
✟337,230.00
Faith
Pentecostal
According to the bible, the tribe of Israel had no problem in committing genocide or taking captives in order to make them slaves. As is common, even to the present day, the abused often becomes the abuser.

No they didn't. And God did allow slavery. I get your struggle. But God is just and his judgements are true. None of us may understand the reasons why God allowed all these things in the OT. None of that really matters in the end. What matters is what do you do with Christ. In the end when you stand before God, that's the only question that matters. Having an excuse of, I didn't believe because of what happened in the OT will be irrelevant. God's ways are not ours, his thoughts are not either.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's what you believe, but I am not talking about some imagined afterlife, I am asking if you believe that murdering children is wrong, even if you believed that they were murdered at the behest of the god you worship?
At the moment I am taking your refusal to answer that question to mean that you approve of the murder of children as recorded in the bible. Most people wouldn't even have to think as to how to answer such a question. What is your problem?

That makes sense. You are talking really from your own belief about death, your own world view in which there is no afterlife.

If that were truly the case, I'd think that every instance of death of this mortal body, young or old, famine or war or illness, any and every, is always tragic and bad, since it's final.

But that's never the end for a person, we know as believers that read the Bible.

We know from the Bible death of this mortal body is only the end of a temporary phase, and then we are revived and face a coming day of judgement, and that eternal life is given to the innocent, the forgiven, the redeemed.

You said: "At the moment I am taking your refusal to answer that question to mean that you approve of the murder of children as recorded in the bible."

Again -- Murder of children is wrong. It's a serious evil, and those that do serious evils and do not utterly repent will go into the "second death", the final and real death.

Time for a couple of questions for you.

If the supreme commander of an army directs the army to wipe out an enemy city with an atomic bomb, and then a bomber crew carries out the orders. (the crew is of course trained and required to carry out the orders, and if they refuse another crew will do so)

Then is the bomber crew responsible for the use of the bomb, or the supreme commander?

If you say the supreme commander is, then we agree on that, and please proceed to the next question below. If you disagree, you could still consider the 2nd question if you like, but we have something to discuss about question 1 if you disagree that the supreme commander is responsible.

-----------
2nd question:

Imagine a clever police officer knocks out a group of people, among which he suspects are a few serious criminals, but he uses sleeping gas on the entire room, and everyone becomes unconscious.

Later, the police officer revives everyone, with the suspects in handcuffs.

Is what the police officer has done at that point 'murder'?

It's not murder if the people are revived of course, and that's the point I've tried to aid you to see above previously.

If a person putatively tries to discuss mortal deaths in the Bible but implies that death of this mortal body is a final and permanent death, that person isn't actually discussing the Bible, but some new thing (new invention), unlike the Bible.

From the Bible we learn that everyone gets revived and faces an accounting.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0