Prewrath?

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,677
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,160.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Jesus comes from heaven with his bride at His Second Coming. So the church has left the world aforehand..
Another wrong opinion from Douggg.
Easily refuted by the fact that Jesus sends His Angels to gather His chosen, those who will reign and rule with Him, Revelation 5:10, at His Return. Matthew 24:30-31, 2 Thess 4:17

Your opinion on this matter would be plausible, if only you would post the scripture that says God is going to take His people to heaven. And when; not the silly nonsense of an 'anytime rapture'.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Another wrong opinion from Douggg.
Easily refuted by the fact that Jesus sends His Angels to gather His chosen, those who will reign and rule with Him, Revelation 5:10, at His Return. Matthew 24:30-31, 2 Thess 4:17

Your opinion on this matter would be plausible, if only you would post the scripture that says God is going to take His people to heaven. And when; not the silly nonsense of an 'anytime rapture'.
I am not saying that there will be a magnificent temple in the future. What I disagreeing with you on is the timing of when it is built. There is not enough time in half of the seven years to build such a temple.

The issue that you make of the rapture - is not relevant to how much time is available to build a magnificent temple during the half of the seven years.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are correct that the new covenant is everlasting and have provided a scripture to support this. Good job. Somehow I think you are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Do you think that you could find a scripture that shows that the Church age cannot end before the second coming? I have tried to come up with one but I am unable to support your opinion.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a member of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,677
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,160.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I am not saying that there will be a magnificent temple in the future. What I disagreeing with you on is the timing of when it is built. There is not enough time in half of the seven years to build such a temple.

The issue that you make of the rapture - is not relevant to how much time is available to build a magnificent temple during the half of the seven years.
Prophecy makes it clear that a new Temple will be built before Jesus Returns. 2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1
It must be completed before the mid point of the last 7 years, as both verses above prove.

But from the many OT sources; a new Temple will be constructed by the Lord's people, soon after they all go to live in all of the holy Land. About 10 years before the Return. Zechariah 1:16, Isaiah 60:7
All according to the detailed plans and specifications given in Ezekiel 40 to 46 and the Glory of God will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4, Malachi 3:1
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Prophecy makes it clear that a new Temple will be built before Jesus Returns. 2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1
It must be completed before the mid point of the last 7 years, as both verses above prove.

But from the many OT sources; a new Temple will be constructed by the Lord's people, soon after they all go to live in all of the holy Land. About 10 years before the Return. Zechariah 1:16, Isaiah 60:7
All according to the detailed plans and specifications given in Ezekiel 40 to 46 and the Glory of God will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4, Malachi 3:1
There will be essentially two temples built in the future. One will be the downsized temple. Which will be replaced when Jesus returns during the millennium. The entire earth is going to have to be restored because of the effects of the great tribulation. At the time of the millennium temple, the dead sea will be made fresh water and have fish.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a member of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.
I'm sure you must have accidentally posted the wrong scriptures as I see nothing there that says the Church age cannot end before the second coming. I thought the effort was good, but the results were left wanting.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,677
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,160.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
There will be essentially two temples built in the future. One will be the downsized temple. Which will be replaced when Jesus returns during the millennium. The entire earth is going to have to be restored because of the effects of the great tribulation. At the time of the millennium temple, the dead sea will be made fresh water and have fish.
I can find absolutely no scriptures to confirm your belief of two new Temples in the future.
That will be, of course, why you fail to provide scriptural proofs for your unbelievable notions.

The entire earth will not be so damaged at the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of wrath, as to require total restoration. Only the holy Land area will be depopulated and burned over. The Lord promises to quickly regenerate it for His people; Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 35:1-10, Joel 1:15-20
 
Upvote 0

Berean Tim

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2017
577
207
67
Houston TX
✟146,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The ones in the 5th seal are persons who became Christians after the rapture and will have been martyred by the beast and company. Not by God.

The first mention of the wrath of God (in textual words) on the 7 year timeline is in Revelation 16, not the seals, but in the vials.

Revelation 16:
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
___________________________________________________________________

The trumpets are before the vials, and are judgments coming from God - but are not called the wrath of God in the text.

___________________________________________________________________

The flaw , imo, by the prewrath view is that God not appointing us to wrath (to take place during the Day of the Lord beginning years in 1Thessalonians5) - applies only to God's wrath. But they omit also not to Satan's wrath, which takes place when Satan is cast down to earth with a time times half times left.

Which them martyred in the 5th seal are in large part by Satan's wrath acted out through the beast and company.

_____________________________________________________________________
Tim, let's take another look at prewrath - separate from the flaw I see in the classic prewrath view.

In 1Thesslaonians5, we are not appointed unto wrath that comes when the Day of the Lord years begin.

If the world is supposed to be saying peace and safety at that time - it should be in the early part of the 7 years. But sometime in the middle part (not the exact middle day) of that 7 years, the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. That shatters the peace and safety illusion - and triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord - which the wrath of God is poured out.

So in that version of "prewrath", the rapture would be pre (before) the act of the Antichrist claiming to be God act (which in turn, the rapture, thus would be pre-Day of the Lord, containing the wrath of God).

Would that be something you could accept as a revised version of "prewrath"?
Dougg, a couple of points.
"The ones in the 5th seal are persons who became Christians after the rapture and will have been martyred by the beast and company."

There is no support for this statement. The text just doesn't say that.

"The first mention of the wrath of God (in textual words) on the 7 year timeline is in Revelation 16, not the seals, but in the vials."

After the events of the 6th Seal the people asked to be hidden from "Him who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb" Do you separate the Wrath of God from the wrath of the Lamb ? IMO the wrath of God or Day of the Lord starts at the opening of the 7th Seal. After the 144000 are sealed. There's a great multitude worshipping before the Throne and the Angel states they have come out of the great tribulation. IMO these are the dead in Christ and the raptured saints, then the 7th Seal is opened. I see no reason to chronology change the text,Seals are opened 1,2,3, Trumpets are blown 1,2,3 , Vials are poured out 1,2,3.

"So in that version of "prewrath", the rapture would be pre (before) the act of the Antichrist claiming to be God act (which in turn, the rapture, thus would be pre-Day of the Lord, containing the wrath of God)."

We will see the rise of the antichrist according to 2 Thessalonians ....that day shall not come until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed

Thanks for your input
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm sure you must have accidentally posted the wrong scriptures as I see nothing there that says the Church age cannot end before the second coming. I thought the effort was good, but the results were left wanting.

You cannot see it because your Dispensational glasses filter out the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 10:18.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


The Uppercase text below is quoted word-for-word from Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Your glasses are cutting the word "church" out of the New Covenant passage above.)


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
(This verse kills Dispensational Theology, because those under the blood of the Lamb must be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.)

.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The entire earth will not be so damaged at the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of wrath, as to require total restoration. Only the holy Land area will be depopulated and burned over. The Lord promises to quickly regenerate it for His people; Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 35:1-10, Joel 1:15-20
first trumpet - a third of the trees burnt up. All green grass burnt up. All of the herd animals will thus die. Which in the food chain, the predator animals turn to hunting men.

second trumpet - a third of the sea became blood - meaning a third of life in the sea dies. And a third of the ships destroyed.

third trumpet - a third of the rivers, and springs became poison - killing multitudes

fourth trumpet - a third of the sun goes dark and a third of the moon, and a third of the starts darkened.

second vial - all of the sea, became as the watery blood of a dead man, and everything in the sea died.

third vial - all the rivers and springs became blood.

seventh vial - the cities of the nations fall. every island sinks.
___________________________________________
The earth at the end of the great tribulation is not going to be the pretty green/blue planet like it is now. It is going to be a wasteland, brown and bloody and stenchy poisoned waters, the landscape eroded, and littered with rotting corpses of men, fish and animals, and cities that are in rumbles.

Now, in comparison (maybe not the best word) if you look in Ezekiel 39, in the aftermath of Gog/Magog, it takes 7 months by human effort to clean the land of Israel of just the dead bodies in that event - and that comes before the great tribulation when the entire earth will be devastated.

When Jesus returns, He is going to have to restore the earth, including recreating all the life in the sea and the animal life that was wiped out.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We will see the rise of the antichrist according to 2 Thessalonians ....that day shall not come until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed
Tim, I am going to marry the key elements of what you wrote about 2Thessalonians2:3-4 with some key elements in 1Thessalonians5... along with some of my own commentary.

1. saying peace and safety [the Jews and world will believe the Antichrist is the messiah]
2. the falling away [many in Christianity will turn away and believe also]
3. the man of sin being revealed [the Antichrist reveals he is not the messiah]
4. the Day of the Lord beginning [his sudden act of claiming to be God triggers the Day of the Lord]

Do you separate the Wrath of God from the wrath of the Lamb ? IMO the wrath of God or Day of the Lord starts at the opening of the 7th Seal.

Jesus is certainly God. But the bible is highlighting that it is Jesus specifically in the sixth seal, because He as the Lamb takes the book and removes the seals, because He is worthy.

The first six seals are the broad overview of the 7 years - from the time the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel, through the following years of his betrayal, the triggering of the Day of the Lord, which contains the great tribulation, the effects of the trumpets and vials, the 666, and martyrdom, right up to when Jesus the Lamb is about to return down to earth to execute judgment on the wicked.

The 7th seal opens the visions of how those things in the first six seals will come together.

Revelation, though, is not a good place to say the The Day of the Lord starts at a certain point. Why so? Because Revelation doesn't speak much about the person when he is in the role of the Antichrist. Revelation is mostly about the person when he is in the role of the beast. It is only as the rider on the white horse given a crown is it talking about the person in the role of the Antichrist.

On a timeline, the person goes through these stages - which can be designated to two tracks - (1) being the King of the Roman Empire (end times) (2) being the King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist.

1. the little horn, (Daniel 7:24) leader of the EU (the 7th Julio-Claudian Roman Empire king) (Revelation 17:10)

2. the prince who shall come (Daniel 9:26) to the middle east (Daniel 8:9) (following Gog/Magog)

3. anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah to the Jews, the Antichrist. (anti - instead of and/or against - Christ Jesus, the king of Israel, Mark 15:32, John 12:13, Matthew 2:2)

4. the revealed man of sin, betrays the Jews, ending his time as their King - the Antichrist. (2Thessalonians2:4 - that's the passage for the Day of the Lord beginning)

5. the beast - for his claim of being God, the person will have been killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and brought back to life (Isaiah 14:19-20) , possessed (Revelation 17:8a) - now the beast (Revelation 17:8b). As the beast, the ten EU leaders give their kingdom to him (Revelation 17:17) - making him the 8th Julio-Claudian Roman Empire King (Revelation 17:11).

Antichrist - is for the time he is the King of Israel, illegitimate.
little horn, then later as the beast - is for the time he is the King of the Roman Empire, end times.
______________________________________________________________
After becoming the beast, the image will be made of him and placed in the temple, triggering the great tribulation. After the great tribulation begins, the trumpets and vial judgements begin, ending with Jesus about to descend to earth in the sixth seal. All of which if you wanted to call the judgments God's wrath - okay.

But the Day of the Lord begins back when the person first goes into the temple and claims to be God. And the resurrection/rapture is before that event.
__________________________________________________________________
The Day of the Lord begins:
2Thessalonians2:4 - the Antichrist claims to be God - the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13). Triggers the Day of the Lord beginning years.

The Great Tribulation begins:
Later, as the beast, Revelation 13, the image is made of him and placed in the temple, Daniel 12:11-12 , Matthew 24:15 - the abomination of desolation. Triggers the great tribulation - which contains the trumpets, vials, sixth seal. Which I think you put under the heading of God's wrath.

The point is the Day of the Lord as found in 2Thessalonians2 begins before the wrath of God in Revelation (due to the image made of the person and placed in the temple).

Prewrath is okay, as long as a person distinguishes the resurrection/rapture is before the person goes into the temple and claims to be God.

I personally say I am "anytime" rapture view, before the Day of the Lord begins. Anytime between now and then. Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib - those designations are going to draw a lot of controversy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You cannot see it because your Dispensational glasses filter out the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 10:18.


Sorry, but I see the word NOW clearly. What I'm looking for is for you to back up your statement that says the Church age cannot end before the second coming. You have somehow tried to sidetrack the conversation and posted a bunch of scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with proving your statement that the church age cannot end before the second coming.


(Your glasses are cutting the word "church" out of the New Covenant passage above.)

No, I see the word church quite clearly. Posting a verse with the word church in it doesn't mean it proves anything about your statement....the church age cannot end before the second coming. Your statement is wrong and you have no proof otherwise as of yet.

I'm pretty sure the problem is with your glasses. I've noticed that every time the scripture says Israel you seem to think that means church. It doesn't.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
(This verse kills Dispensational Theology, because those under the blood of the Lamb must be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.)
.

It only kills it in your mind, as God tells us that He is sealing 144,000 from the 12 tribes. The reason he named the tribes is so you would know He is talking about Israel and not about the church. He wants you to see clearly and not make a bunch of garbage up. And these FIRST FRUITS guarantee a harvest of His ELECT.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

If you are looking for proof of a theology being killed you might look over at the nation of Israel. It absolutely obliterates replacement theology for anyone looking for the truth. Aren't you tired of wasting your time on a failed theology. In your heart........you know it's wrong. Face the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Berean Tim

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2017
577
207
67
Houston TX
✟146,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Tim, I am going to marry the key elements of what you wrote about 2Thessalonians2:3-4 with some key elements in 1Thessalonians5... along with some of my own commentary.

1. saying peace and safety [the Jews and world will believe the Antichrist is the messiah]
2. the falling away [many in Christianity will turn away and believe also]
3. the man of sin being revealed [the Antichrist reveals he is not the messiah]
4. the Day of the Lord beginning [his sudden act of claiming to be God triggers the Day of the Lord]



Jesus is certainly God. But the bible is highlighting that it is Jesus specifically in the sixth seal, because He as the Lamb takes the book and removes the seals, because He is worthy.

The first six seals are the broad overview of the 7 years - from the time the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel, through the following years of his betrayal, the triggering of the Day of the Lord, which contains the great tribulation, the effects of the trumpets and vials, the 666, and martyrdom, right up to when Jesus the Lamb is about to return down to earth to execute judgment on the wicked.

The 7th seal opens the visions of how those things in the first six seals will come together.

Revelation, though, is not a good place to say the The Day of the Lord starts at a certain point. Why so? Because Revelation doesn't speak much about the person when he is in the role of the Antichrist. Revelation is mostly about the person when he is in the role of the beast. It is only as the rider on the white horse given a crown is it talking about the person in the role of the Antichrist.

On a timeline, the person goes through these stages - which can be designated to two tracks - (1) being the King of the Roman Empire (end times) (2) being the King of Israel (illegitimate) - the Antichrist.

1. the little horn, (Daniel 7:24) leader of the EU (the 7th Julio-Claudian Roman Empire king) (Revelation 17:10)

2. the prince who shall come (Daniel 9:26) to the middle east (Daniel 8:9) (following Gog/Magog)

3. anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah to the Jews, the Antichrist. (anti - instead of and/or against - Christ Jesus, the king of Israel, Mark 15:32, John 12:13, Matthew 2:2)

4. the revealed man of sin, betrays the Jews, ending his time as their King - the Antichrist. (2Thessalonians2:4 - that's the passage for the Day of the Lord beginning)

5. the beast - for his claim of being God, the person will have been killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and brought back to life (Isaiah 14:19-20) , possessed (Revelation 17:8a) - now the beast (Revelation 17:8b). As the beast, the ten EU leaders give their kingdom to him (Revelation 17:17) - making him the 8th Julio-Claudian Roman Empire King (Revelation 17:11).

Antichrist - is for the time he is the King of Israel, illegitimate.
little horn, then later as the beast - is for the time he is the King of the Roman Empire, end times.
______________________________________________________________
After becoming the beast, the image will be made of him and placed in the temple, triggering the great tribulation. After the great tribulation begins, the trumpets and vial judgements begin, ending with Jesus about to descend to earth in the sixth seal. All of which if you wanted to call the judgments God's wrath - okay.

But the Day of the Lord begins back when the person first goes into the temple and claims to be God. And the resurrection/rapture is before that event.
__________________________________________________________________
The Day of the Lord begins:
2Thessalonians2:4 - the Antichrist claims to be God - the transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:13). Triggers the Day of the Lord beginning years.

The Great Tribulation begins:
Later, as the beast, Revelation 13, the image is made of him and placed in the temple, Daniel 12:11-12 , Matthew 24:15 - the abomination of desolation. Triggers the great tribulation - which contains the trumpets, vials, sixth seal. Which I think you put under the heading of God's wrath.

The point is the Day of the Lord as found in 2Thessalonians2 begins before the wrath of God in Revelation (due to the image made of the person and placed in the temple).

Prewrath is okay, as long as a person distinguishes the resurrection/rapture is before the person goes into the temple and claims to be God.

I personally say I am "anytime" rapture view, before the Day of the Lord begins. Anytime between now and then. Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib - those designations are going to draw a lot of controversy.
Dougg, there are many who overlap the Seals , Trumpets and Vials. I don't read it that way. I believe they are consecutive , While I see chapters Revelation 11 , 12 and 13 as detailed chapters of the final years I believe most of Revelation is chronological.
As to your statement "Prewrath is okay, as long as a person distinguishes the resurrection/rapture is before the person goes into the temple and claims to be God." PreWrath folks actually take the position opposite to this. We believe that day " The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered unto him will not come until the Apostasy and the man of sin is revealed.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This seems to me the plain reading of this passage
Hope we can agree to disagree amicably
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm pretty sure the problem is with your glasses. I've noticed that every time the scripture says Israel you seem to think that means church. It doesn't.

Which Israel are you talking about?

Do you know the difference between Israel of the flesh, and Israel of the promise?


Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,


Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Do you know the difference between the Israelite Baal worshippers and the faithful remant of Israelites?

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?

Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Who do you think James is speaking to when he addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in "faith"?
Who are the twelve tribes?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Who was Peter speaking to on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

.


 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Dougg, there are many who overlap the Seals , Trumpets and Vials. I don't read it that way. I believe they are consecutive , While I see chapters Revelation 11 , 12 and 13 as detailed chapters of the final years I believe most of Revelation is chronological.
As to your statement "Prewrath is okay, as long as a person distinguishes the resurrection/rapture is before the person goes into the temple and claims to be God." PreWrath folks actually take the position opposite to this. We believe that day " The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered unto him will not come until the Apostasy and the man of sin is revealed.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This seems to me the plain reading of this passage
Hope we can agree to disagree amicably
Tim, it is the plain reading of the passage. But the wrath of God is not mentioned in 2Thessalonians2:1-4, because that comes not by the Antichrist sitting in the temple, but later when the AoD is placed in the temple.

Day of the Lord begins - then later, maybe about a month or so, as the the Day of the Lord continues, the wrath of God begins when the AoD is placed in the temple.

The element of surprise (maybe not the best word) associated with the rapture would be taken away if after the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. So the resurrection/rapture will be before then - which Christians also avoid the wrath that comes, still during the Day of the Lord, but a little later when the AoD is placed in the temple.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Which Israel are you talking about?

Do you know the difference between Israel of the flesh, and Israel of the promise?


Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,


Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Do you know the difference between the Israelite Baal worshippers and the faithful remant of Israelites?

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?

Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Who do you think James is speaking to when he addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in "faith"?
Who are the twelve tribes?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Who was Peter speaking to on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


.

Let's not get off topic yet again. Try to focus and provide scriptural backup to prove your comment........ the Church age cannot end before the second coming.

Either provide scriptural backup or admit you are in error.....again.
 
Upvote 0

Berean Tim

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2017
577
207
67
Houston TX
✟146,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Tim, it is the plain reading of the passage. But the wrath of God is not mentioned in 2Thessalonians2:1-4, because that comes not by the Antichrist sitting in the temple, but later when the AoD is placed in the temple.

Day of the Lord begins - then later, maybe about a month or so, as the the Day of the Lord continues, the wrath of God begins when the AoD is placed in the temple.

The element of surprise (maybe not the best word) associated with the rapture would be taken away if after the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. So the resurrection/rapture will be before then - which Christians also avoid the wrath that comes, still during the Day of the Lord, but a little later when the AoD is placed in the temple.
But thats exactly what it says. Not until these things happen will the Coming of the Lord and our being gathered unto Him happen. As far as surprise or imminence, we don't know the day but we know the times and season. It's the world that will be surprised not us.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's not get off topic yet again. Try to focus and provide scriptural backup to prove your comment........ the Church age cannot end before the second coming.

Either provide scriptural backup or admit you are in error.....again.

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115

The "church" is made up of all those individuals who have placed their faith in the work of Christ at Calvary.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.



Mat_16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Mat_18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Act_2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Act_5:11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

Act_8:1 Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act_8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Act_11:22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Act_12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

Act_12:5 Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.

Act_13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Act_14:23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Act_14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Act_15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.

Act_15:4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
Act_15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

Act_18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up and greeted the church, he went down to Antioch.

Act_20:17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.

Act_20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Rom_16:1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

Rom_16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

Rom_16:23 Gaius, my host and the host of the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the treasurer of the city, greets you, and Quartus, a brother.

1Co_1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co_4:17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

1Co_6:4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?

1Co_10:32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,

1Co_11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

1Co_11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

1Co_12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co_14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

1Co_14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

1Co_14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

1Co_14:19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1Co_14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

1Co_14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

1Co_14:35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

1Co_15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1Co_16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal_1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

Eph_1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

Eph_3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Eph_3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Eph_5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph_5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Eph_5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

Eph_5:27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Eph_5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Php_3:6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Php_4:15 Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only.

Col_1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Col_1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Col_4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

Col_4:16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th_1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti_3:5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);

1Ti_3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1Ti_5:16 If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

Phm_1:2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

Heb_12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Jas_5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

3Jn_1:6 who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,

3Jn_1:9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

3Jn_1:10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

Rev_2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

Rev_2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Rev_2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:

Rev_2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

Rev_3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev_3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "HE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DAVID, HE WHO OPENS AND NO ONE SHUTS, AND SHUTS AND NO ONE OPENS":

Rev_3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:


You have invented an imaginary group of people called "tribulation saints", which is a term not found in scripture.

You claim they are saved by the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, and at the same time you claim these people are not members of Christ's church.

Your definition is an oxymoron in and of itself.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Total KJV occurrences: 115

The "church" is made up of all those individuals who have placed their faith in the work of Christ at Calvary.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.



Mat_16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Mat_18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Act_2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Act_5:11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

Act_8:1 Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act_8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

Act_11:22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Act_12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

Act_12:5 Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.

Act_13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Act_14:23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Act_14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Act_15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.

Act_15:4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
Act_15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

Act_18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up and greeted the church, he went down to Antioch.

Act_20:17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.

Act_20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Rom_16:1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

Rom_16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

Rom_16:23 Gaius, my host and the host of the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the treasurer of the city, greets you, and Quartus, a brother.

1Co_1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co_4:17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

1Co_6:4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?

1Co_10:32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,

1Co_11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

1Co_11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

1Co_12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co_14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

1Co_14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

1Co_14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

1Co_14:19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1Co_14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

1Co_14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

1Co_14:35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

1Co_15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1Co_16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal_1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

Eph_1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

Eph_3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Eph_3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Eph_5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph_5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Eph_5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

Eph_5:27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Eph_5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Php_3:6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Php_4:15 Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only.

Col_1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Col_1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Col_4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.

Col_4:16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th_1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th_1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti_3:5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);

1Ti_3:15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1Ti_5:16 If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

Phm_1:2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

Heb_12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Jas_5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

3Jn_1:6 who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,

3Jn_1:9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

3Jn_1:10 Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

Rev_2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

Rev_2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Rev_2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:

Rev_2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

Rev_3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev_3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "HE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DAVID, HE WHO OPENS AND NO ONE SHUTS, AND SHUTS AND NO ONE OPENS":

Rev_3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:


You have invented an imaginary group of people called "tribulation saints", which is a term not found in scripture.

You claim they are saved by the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, and at the same time you claim these people are not members of Christ's church.

Your definition is an oxymoron in and of itself.

.
Where's the confusion. It's pretty simple.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Feel free to respond with the times of the Gentiles scripture that you take out of context.........that you should be wise in...........
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0