Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

Kaon

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Even if it incorporated pagan elements from the converted Christians I will not give Christmas away to the Pagans because of this. The only ones really complaining are mostly the Pagans themselves.

I am not pagan. I didn't truly stop celebrating Christmas until I was in my mid 20's - after a lot of my own research, giving up Christmas-taking it back-giving it up, and a general spiritual odyssey for truth. It was not easy to reconcile how historically pagan some "Christian" holidays are, but I had to get over if since it is a matter of the spirit.

What is the saying, "Can't put lipstick on a pig"? How can we be justified celebrating Solis Invictus by calling it Christian and claiming we are crusading against the pagans?
 
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Albion

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It is a word with many meanings. Clearly "sect" in Acts 15:5 (hairesis is the underlying Greek), a bad "choice" in Acts 24:14, but in this verse... I see information by force, manipulation:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

I guess we must just disagree. To me, false prophets and destructive heresies escribe incorrect teachings and teachers and a breaking of fellowship, not a literal use of force, violence, etc.
 
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Kaon

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Most of the stuff you said is taken for the Anti-Christian Christ Myth Theory that everything related Christianity is a rip off from pagan myths.
Also, we aren't Jews but Christians, and they deny Christ so what does it matter?

If you want to believe it is "anti-Christian Christ Myth Theory" that is your prerogative. However, the Hebrews are the people of the Most High God; they are the main audience target in the bible. Christianity is not a separate entity from Hebrews; any remnant of Hebrews that believe in the Redeemer (not all Hebrews are in Israel by far) are Christians, and the natural trajectory of the Hebrew is to be a Christian.

The disciples were the first Christians, but they wouldn't call themselves "Christian" because they always believed in the Most High God, and the resurrection of the Word of God. They are just Hebrews (natural progression of an Hebrew).

It is the Christians of modernity that make the distinction between Christian and Hebrew. If we are adopted as Hebrews, we need to behave like them; we don't get to get the title without reflecting it.
 
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Ken Rank

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I guess we must just disagree. To me, false prophets and destructive heresies escribe incorrect teachings and teachers and a breaking of fellowship, not a literal use of force, violence, etc.
Brother, Thayer bible lexicon and Liddell-Scott bible lexicon are who defined the word first as storming a city or taking by force, not me.
 
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Ronald

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Important Note:
(Please read this before posting and or reading the rest of my OP):

I want to first say that I love you in the Lord Jesus Christ. I also want to say that I love all people. I am commanded by God to even love my enemies. My message today here is not that I want to be of hate or of malice, but of love. I say what I do in love to you. God tells me to even love the sinner and hate the sin. I am especially fond of my fellow Christians who truly desire to follow Christ and who seek to obey Him in everything that He tells us to do within His Word. That is what this thread is about. If you are offended by what I will say with Scripture, please know I am not saying I am better than you or that I do not care about you. I am nothing. The Lord our God is everything; And I love you deeply. I am merely calling you in love to follow God's Word and His Word alone. Only God can open our eyes, and change our hearts to see what His Word says in so many ways. I am only speaking and doing that which I believe is right by the Word of God. This thread is merely to show you what the Bible says about a popular celebration of the world when we compare it with Scripture. For surely we can love our families without a specific calendar day telling us to do so. We can most assuredly love our family by God's Word alone. In fact, speaking of God's Word, we are told within His Word to test everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21). We are to hold fast to that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21). My friends, I call you all in love to look at the Holy Scriptures today with a fresh new pair of eyes. Before you begin, I would like you to take a moment and pray. I would like for you to pray to the Lord and ask Him for wisdom and understanding before reading what I am about to share with you in love involving the Scriptures. For I write this because I love you in Christ Jesus.
Side Note: Did you pray yet? Did you really do it? Please do so now if you have not done so. Anyways, may the Lord's love and goodness be upon you this day that the Lord has made.​


Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical.

#1. Christmas is not celebrated anywhere in the Bible.

(a) Jesus is not a baby right now but He is our risen Lord.

We are never told to honor just a baby Jesus alone,
but we are told to live unto a risen Lord (2 Corinthians 5:15).
Focusing on a baby version of Jesus (without mentioning the resurrection of Christ in our message) is to take the focus off of our risen Lord Jesus Christ. If our message does not include a risen Christ, then our preaching is in vain according to Paul:
"And if Christ be not risen,
then is our preaching vain,
and your faith is also vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14).
Tell me, does Christmas focus on a risen Lord or does it focus on His birth?

(b) While there are biblical clues to Christ's birth date, the date of Christ's birth is nowhere specifically mentioned in the Bible and oddly his birth is coincidentally placed upon the date of the worship of other pagan gods, and a popular pagan festival, instead.

Is it okay to worship God in any way we like? In Genesis 4, we see Cain trying to bring the harvest of the ground unto God as a sacrifice instead of offering an animal sacrifice like his brother Abel did correctly (See Genesis 4:3-7). Cain's offering was not accepted. His worship was not accepted. Why? Because he was doing his own thing. Cain grew angry and decided to kill his own brother over this. Friend, do you hate or dislike Christians who do not keep Christ-mass?
Jesus says he seeks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Are we worshiping in truth if there are some pagan elements (which are a lie) mixed in with the truth? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life? (John 14:6). Jesus said, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shalt you serve." (Luke 4:8). But how can we worship God alone if we are involving pagan elements in our worship of Him. Was not Cain's offering of doing whatever he wanted not accepted by God? (See Genesis 4:5). Was Cain truly worshiping God alone by being obedient to him or was he worshiping God his own way?​

#2. Christmas Trees.

21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the Lord thy God, which thou shalt make thee.
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth."
(Deuteronomy 16:21).

2 "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (Jeremiah 10:2-4).

Celts and druids (witches) believe trees are sacred or magical objects.
Meaning, they holds some kind of significance spiritually for them.

Even if you did not put up trees yourself.
You cannot stop others from doing so.
Christmas trees is about the holiday (holy day) season.
Some people sing praises to the Christmas tree (without thinking about it) in Christmas carols. People give attention to a beautiful object and put presents around it (like a gift or offering) to this beautiful object. Some people dance around the Christmas tree. Sure seems like harmless fun, but what if the Bible is really condemning trees?
Also, why would you want to imitate a practice that is similar to the druids and put up a sacred special tree in your home?
Sure, they may not think it is a god or idol exactly because your not bowing down to it or praying to it, but does that mean we can just put statues of demonic idols in our home and God would be okay with that?​

#3. Do not imitate the heathen's ways or men's traditions.

Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Is Christmas something in the Bible or is it more like a tradition of men and or after the rudiments of the world? Think about it. Should we let a world recognized holiday tell us how we are to worship our Lord? Or do we let the Bible alone tell us how we are to worship our Lord?

"Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2) (NLT).

"...Learn not the way of the heathen,..." (Jeremiah 10:2).

But it has Jesus in the holiday and we focus on Jesus, so it is okay, right?

It is written,

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Paul is saying to bear with them that preach another Jesus. He does not say to embrace another Jesus in whom they have not preached.

The Jesus that is being preached in Christmas is a baby Jesus and how we must give honor to Him by exchanging gifts (sometimes going into debt) around a Christmas tree.

In fact, 9 out of the 11 times the word "tradition" appears in the King James Bible, it is in reference to the traditions of men that were bad and not good (See this link here at BlueLetterBible). In fact, Jesus says that men were transgressing God's commands by their man made traditions. Christmas is a human tradition of man and it is nowhere to be found within the Scriptures; And we are told not to imitate the way of the heathen or the customs of the world. Christmas is very much a custom or celebration of the world.​

#4. True Giving vs Christmas Giving.

Do not give out of compulsion. For Paul says,

"You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.""
(2 Corinthians 9:7) (NLT).

Yet, Christmas is a time where you feel compelled to give out of pressure.

Christmas is also a time when it is about the exchange of gifts.

Yet, Jesus says,
Give without expecting anything in return.
For do not sinners love their own?
For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

"And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thanks have you? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. (Luke 6:34).

32 "For if you love them who love you, what thanks have you? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks have you? for sinners also do even the same." (Luke 6:32-33).

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." (Luke 6:35).

12 "Then said he also to him that bade him, When you give a dinner or a supper, call not your friends, nor your brethren, neither your kinsmen, nor your rich neighbors; lest they also bid you again, and a recompense be made you.
13 But when you give a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And you shall be blessed; for they cannot recompense you: for you shall be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." (Luke 14:12-14).

8 "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, "This day is salvation come to this house,...""
(Luke 19:8-9).​

#5. The focus of Christmas is materialism and not the worship of Christ on this day.

Most do not actually celebrate Jesus's birth on this day but they actually focus more on the gift giving and the decorating and in celebrating or having a good time with their family. For when the holidays come, do you prepare yourself in prayer, fasting, reading Scripture in order to worship Christ on Christmas? Or are you more focused on buying things for others and in getting together with your family to just have a good time? An insane amount of money is spent on Christmas each year and people have gone into financial debt as a result of it. Others beat each other up in department stores all in the spirit of Christmas. Is such a material focused holiday really something that is of God? How are you honoring Christ's birth truly? Are you focusing on those Scripture verses on the Nativity each year as a family? Do you and your family feel like you are drawing closer to God each year by celebrating the Lord's birth? Or is it more about the stuff with you saying that you are honoring Christ? I say this not to get you or anyone else here upset, but I say this as a means to examine yourself in your walk with the Lord in everything you do. To prove to you that Christmas is not materialistic, just tell your kids next year that they are not getting any gifts and watch their reaction. They have depended on being rich with things and not rich in the things of God. For some even look forward to Christmas just so as to receive money. However, the Bible says,
10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
#6. Be ye holy and separate from the world.

Atheists, psychics, and people of many faiths celebrate Christmas. It is the one time of year where everyone gets together to give and whereby some say they are doing it to honor Christ's birth. Everyone is one big happy family celebrating and exchanging gifts and excited over their newly received material goods. Everyone including Christ haters are celebrating Christmas along with Christ lovers. There is even an Atheist Christmas Carol (See here and or here). But the Bible says be ye holy (1 Peter 1:16), and be ye separate (2 Corinthians 6:17). The Bible says what fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For it is written,
17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:" (Ephesians 4:17-21).
#7. Love not the things of this world.

In 1 John 2:15-17, it says love not the world, neither the things in this world, if any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in them.

Christmas is technically a thing of this world. It is world recognized holiday.
But if you tell people you stopped celebrating Christmas, expect some hateful comments from people. Why?
"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19).

Colossians 3:1-3 says,

"Since you were raised from the dead with Christ, aim at what is in heaven, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. Think only about the things in heaven, not the things on earth. Your old sinful self has died, and your new life is kept with Christ in God."

Christmas is not something that is celebrated in Heaven. We are to think about the things in Heaven or above and not on the things of this Earth. Our focus should be on building ourselves up in righteousness, love, and faith according to God's Word and not according to the wisdom or ways of men.​
Anyways, I say all this in love and with the hope you will investigate the origins of Christmas on your own and seek the Scriptures with God in deep prayer and fasting on this matter. I know that if you will seek the truth, God will show it to you. Again, I say these things not condemn or hurt anyone but I say these things in love so as to answer the call of God in your Sanctification in being truly holy for the Lord. So..."Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).
Regardless of whether we have the correct date of His birth take note:
The angels worshipped Him in the field where He laid. Wise men gave gifts to Him as we do eachother.
True, His Resurrection is the most important day in history, but His birth was a miracle. GOD emptied Himself into Mary's womb. She was conceived by the Holy Spirit, a prophecy fulfilled and long awaited for. Keep in mind the Jews celebrated many feasts, special days to remember. Christ's birth is one important one, the day our Savior came. He may have been born on 9-11-3BC, who knows. The Day they chose overshadowed and eventually destroyed a pagan holiday -- good.
We are called to focus on things above and not be slaves to worldly things. His birth was a miracle, not worldly. True the holiday has become materialistic and many lose the meaning, which is about our Savior. Celebrating His birth IS in essence confirming His death and resurrection - they are inseparable.
A monk traveling through Germania long ago passed through a village of Druids (who worshipped trees), to spread the gospel. He told them trees did not have spirits and to prove it, he said he would chop down the largest one in the forest. They said he would be cursed and were frightened. He did it, nothing happened and then he dedicated that tree to the true God, our Lord and Savior. From that time on, it became tradition and decorations were added and so IT'S ALL GOOD.
It's Biblical, and the true spirit of the celebration is not lost in materialism. True Christians know, the rest of the world does not. JW's don't celebrate it but they celebrate little in life, rebeling against and labeling all holidays as pagan except weddings and anniversaries. GOD does not forbid celebrating any holiday where we include Him, where we give thanks to Him for such a day, for all His blessings, or people He has put in our lives.
 
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Not David

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If you want to believe it is "anti-Christian Christ Myth Theory" that is your prerogative. However, the Hebrews are the people of the Most High God; they are the main audience target in the bible. Christianity is not a separate entity from Hebrews; any remnant of Hebrews that believe in the Redeemer (not all Hebrews are in Israel by far) are Christians, and the natural trajectory of the Hebrew is to be a Christian.

The disciples were the first Christians, but they wouldn't call themselves "Christian" because they always believed in the Most High God, and the resurrection of the Word of God. They are just Hebrews (natural progression of an Hebrew).

It is the Christians of modernity that make the distinction between Christian and Hebrew. If we are adopted as Hebrews, we need to behave like them; we don't get to get the title without reflecting it.
Yet the New Testament was written in Greek.
 
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Loren T.

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We talk a lot about the extravagance of Christmas, the commercialization, and it’s true, but still, we can never be more extravagant than God . So perhaps our attitudes need adjustment. God gave all that he could. He gave himself. Do you think he really frowns when you spend a bit too much on your kids or spouse?


Instead of posting a point by point answer, here is part of a blog post I did on Christmas:
So, we light up the world, we get out the manger scene, we watch the children sing Christmas carols and it’s all good, it’s all beautiful. Should I interrupt the party with the images we don’t put on the mantle?

Like a painfully young and scared Jewish girl whose swollen form writhes on the hay in the agony of labor. She doesn’t wear a halo and her robes are neither white nor clean, but stained with blood. The incarnation itself is a divine mystery, but the birth is normal and messy as births tend to be. With due respect to my Catholic friends, we tend to put Mary on too much of a pedestal, I think. The serene smile and clean robed Mary kneeling adoringly at the foot of the manger without a hair out of place-do you really believe that’s how it was? Perhaps a more accurate image would be of Mary kneeling and trying to sop up Jesus’ blood after his torture session, in the “Passion of the Christ.” Whether this scene really happened or not, it is a perfect illustration of Mary’s role in his story. And it does show both her humble acceptance and raw courage. And isn’t this what good mother’s do? Mopping up after their children both figuratively and often mopping up blood literally, while bleeding inside because she can’t take her child’s pain onto herself. That is a mother’s heart.

But, still, faith is always about trusting in spite of fear, in spite of doubt. I think she felt fear, felt doubt, and cried out in pain and begged God for a normal life. I think she got irritated, even angry, at her perfect son for his sometimes baffling behavior. Because she was human and like the rest of us, in need of forgiveness. As Mark Lowry wrote in “Mary, did you know?” the child she delivered would later deliver her. She needed a Savior as much as the rest of us do.

As another song says, it must have seemed to both her and Joseph, “Such a strange way to save the world.”

We like to say God came to earth in the most humble of ways, but to put an even finer point on it, even if Christ had been born in a castle, the son of a noble woman, on silk sheets, it still would have been a humble birth for the son of God.

The wonder of that night isn’t only in the miracles and the songs of angels and the worshiping shepherds. The wonder is also in how seemingly ordinary it all was. An ordinary girl has an ordinary birth, in an ordinary small town and probably later faces the ordinary gossip by those who knew she was pregnant too soon. What kind of God begins his most important mission with scandal and a helpless baby instead of a warrior and armies?

Sure, the birth was announce by angels, but only to a few grubby shepherds. Other than that, God goes incognito, speaking to Joseph in dreams and nightmares, telling only a handful of people about the most important news the world has ever seen. The Savior sneaks into the world as if on a covert op into enemy territory, which was exactly what he was doing. Certainly, it was a Holy Night to those few who knew that this was no normal baby. To the rest of the human world, the whole thing went unnoticed for a couple of years, at which time King Herod murders a bunch of baby boys because of his paranoia and the loose lips of some “wise men.” from the east. And God doesn’t do anything too dramatic, even then. He sends some more dreams to the not so wise men and to Joseph, so they can get out of Dodge while the getting is good. He doesn’t zap Herod or send an army of angels to protect Jesus. He just has the key players sneak over to Egypt for awhile.

Just a side note: Did Joseph ever get confused about all the dreams? Did he ever wake up and say:

“Mary, we have to get out of town! I had a dream last night that a white elephant knocked the house down and stepped on your foot!”

And Mary rolls her eyes.

“Joseph, not every dream means to run for your life. It was probably just too many egg rolls mixed with the old wine last night.”

As someone who works with his hands, I think it’s way cool that Jesus didn’t grow up spending all his time studying behind a desk. Some have speculated that Joseph was probably more of a stone mason than a wood worker. Still, Jesus grew up learning a craft that required skill and muscles and hard work. The Creator of the Cosmos learned to create the slow and painful way instead of speaking planets into existence.

I heard a sermon once where the main point was that if Joseph had not married Mary, the world would not have had a Savior. Well, I think God is more resourceful then that, and big enough to work out the plan of salvation in spite of what Jesus’ parents did. Still, it seems like God picked the right step dad. Joseph could have said:

“I didn’t sign up for this.”, and dropped Mary like a hot potato. Worse, he could have shamed her in public and had her stoned. But he was an honorable man and Jesus no doubt learned about honor from him, imperfect as Joseph was. Perhaps he learned about subtlety too, and when it was needed, he kept his mission private from most until the time of fulfillment arrived. Jesus knew when to speak and when to remain silent, which is a rare talent for any leader. Is it speculating too much to say he may have learned from his human father that actions speak louder than words?

Now, I know it’s hard to imagine God learning anything, even God in human form, but scripture says he did just that. What does it mean to grow in favor with God and man? There is a question you sometimes hear-whether it was possible for Jesus to sin. We know he didn’t, but could he have? Right off the bat, this brings up another question, just what is sin? Sure, we know the obvious ones, outlined in the Ten Commandments, but what about the not so obvious ones? Jesus would say later that if you did something in your heart, you were guilty of it. How could Jesus, who was already perfect, grow in favor with God? Doesn’t this suggest that God can change somehow? That already being perfect in all his intentions, he somehow became more perfect in his actions?

What did Simeon prophesy about him? (Luke 2:34)

“He will be the cause of the falling and rising of many in Israel and be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.”

Uh-huh. Jesus offends some people. People get uncomfortable when he’s mentioned. We call him the Prince of peace, but he himself said he came to bring division:

34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.…36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Wow, that doesn’t sound too peaceful. He came to divide those whose hearts would choose to accept him and those who would harden their hearts against him. Notice how Simeon puts it: “The thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.” This sword of his cuts not flesh and bone, but it cuts to the heart and lays bare our true selves, so we MUST choose to accept or reject his message.

People like to say: “Keep Christ in Christmas.” The truth is, even people who do not know him say it sometimes, I suppose because it sounds nice and who doesn’t like a cute baby who never cries, laughing at the antics of the animals around his manger on a “Silent Night”? First of all, I think Jesus did cry and I don’t think the animals went out of their way to entertain him. But, who knows? But, in reality, despite appearances, this wasn’t a silent night. Not where it really mattered. This was the night when God invaded Satan’s territory and you can bet swords clashed in the heavens.

It’s great that you love the baby, but he doesn’t stay a baby, and he’s coming back as a warrior king… and that’s a story you don’t hear much on Christmas. If you listen closely, behind the singing angels you might hear the screams of demons being thrown back into the pit. You might hear the sound of a million praying saints and a million sinners cursing them for their prayers. You might hear a crowd chanting; “Crucify him!” and Satan laughing with delight. Or Disciples shouting “He is risen!” and the happy laughter of some of the same people who called for his death, celebrating their own re births. For over two thousand years, a war has raged over this child in the manger, over this bloody, naked man on a Roman cross, and history was split by his coming, B.C. to A.D.

The baby has grown and his question haunts all who care enough to listen:

“Who do YOU say that I am?”

That’s the only question worth thinking about when you know what Christmas is-Christ Mass. Mass meaning “A sending out”. So when you tell someone “Merry Christmas.” you are saying “Merry Christ sending”. He was sent to save a dying world. And that sending was a mission that included his death. Some have taken great offense to the thought that Christ Mass can mean: “Merry Death Sacrifice.” Because, that is what they celebrate. Mass includes the Eucharist-Communion to us Protestants. We celebrate Christ’s birth this time of year, but you can’t celebrate the birth without the death. Remembering the Cross at Christmas isn’t morbid, and you can’t have the baby without the blood. Celebrating his death is totally appropriate, as long as we know death doesn’t get the final word.. and He lives again that death may die.

So, Merry Christ’s Birth and Death and Resurrection to all and to all a good night!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What is most likely, Passover? It might be.... but since Elizabeth's husband was a priest in the order of Abijah, and that order served twice a year at a set time... then since we know Elizabeth became pregnant when he came out of his time of service, and since we know how far along Elizabeth was and Mary was when Mary came to visit... then it is simple math that puts a delivery date anywhere from late August to the first week of October... depending on how the Hebrew calendar (which at that time was observed, not calculated) coincided that year. Now, that is based on her getting pregnant after his first time of service. If the 2nd... then we can argue Passover instead of Tabernacles. But it is one or the other and >>NOBODY<< knows with 100% certainty which. What we do know is that is wasn't in the winter. :)

Blessings.
Ken
One of the greatest prophecies fulfilled.......I love the story of Mary/Jesus and Elizabeth/John

New House New Stones
Birth of Jesus and John the Baptist


Malachi 3:1
"Behold! I am sending My messenger, and he hath prepared a way before Me,
And suddenly come in unto His Temple doth 'Adown/Lord-Master<113> Whom ye are seeking,
Even the Messenger of the Covenant, Whom ye are desiring.
Behold! He is coming" says Yahweh of Hosts
.

The 1st time Jesus and John meet.....what an awesome event between Mary and Elizabeth:

Luke 1:
41 And it came to pass, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby in her womb leaped. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
42 and she cried out in a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 And from where is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For behold! as the voice of your greeting came into my ears, the baby in my womb leaped in exultation
.

Luke 2:34
And Simon blesses them and said toward Mary, the mother of Him, "Behold! this-One is set for the Falling and Resurrection/ana-stasin <386> of many in Israel
and into a Sign spoken against
"-- [Ezekiel 37 "valley of bones]

1st time Jesus comes to the Temple.
They have no idea, [yet], that this 12 yr old boy is in fact the Son of God/Yahweh, that is standing right in front of them.[Revelation 2:18] Oh to have been there!


Luke 2:42
42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast.
46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the Temple, sitting in the midst of the Teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
[Isaiah 11:6 "..and a little child shall lead them"]

Then John and Jesus meet at the Jordan river at the Baptism.........Awesome!


John 1:6
6 There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John.
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Behold! The Lamb<286> of the God Who takes away the sin of the world!
36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold! the Lamb<286> of the God!”
 
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Kaon

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Yet the New Testament was written in Greek.

Because the "World" language was Greek at the time.

People in all around the world speak English; not everyone is American, English, Irish or Scottish, and English may not be their first or second language.
 
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Albion

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Brother, Thayer bible lexicon and Liddell-Scott bible lexicon are who defined the word first as storming a city or taking by force, not me.
...and I don't fault that definition. It doesn't mean, however, that the word heresy, as used in religion, means the same thing as the word originally meant. There is a connection, yes. The meaning in church history and theology is derived from the original meaning, but it certainly does not mean violence, storming a city by force, etc. I tried to explain that earlier but I probably did not do a good job of it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ken Rank said:
Brother, Thayer bible lexicon and Liddell-Scott bible lexicon are who defined the word first as storming a city or taking by force, not me.
...and I don't fault that definition. It doesn't mean, however, that the word heresy, as used in religion, means the same thing as the word originally meant. There is a connection, yes. The meaning in church history and theology is derived from the original meaning, but it certainly does not mean violence, storming a city by force, etc. I tried to explain that earlier but I probably did not do a good job of it.
Hi Albion.
Did you happen to see my post #144?


Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).
Post #144

G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
Thayer Definition:
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city

Liddell-Scott adds "to take by force." I admit that "choice" is a major factor with this word. One doesn't storm a city filled with people they agree with. But the modern definition ONLY means choice, whereas the FIRST definition in the first century dealt with force. I can show it being used as force, as choice, and as sect in the NT.
Ahhh, thanks for that clarification.
Perhaps you are referring to the derivative of #138---#726?


139. hairesis hah'-ee-res-is from 138;
properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.
138. haireomai hahee-reh'-om-ahee probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
726. harpazo from a derivative of 138;
to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The violent ones could still be symbolizing the corrupt murderous Judean Rulers?

Matthew 11:12
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is being violently-forced<971>, and the violent<973> take it by force<726>.
Luke 16:16
“The law and the prophets were until John.
from then the kingdom of the God is being evangelized and every-one into it is violently-forcing<971> and violent-ones<973> are forcefully-taking<726> it
 
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Der Alte

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<K>I am not pagan. I didn't truly stop celebrating Christmas until I was in my mid 20's - after a lot of my own research, giving up Christmas-taking it back-giving it up, and a general spiritual odyssey for truth. It was not easy to reconcile how historically pagan some "Christian" holidays are, but I had to get over if since it is a matter of the spirit.
What is the saying, "Can't put lipstick on a pig"? How can we be justified celebrating Solis Invictus by calling it Christian and claiming we are crusading against the pagans?<end>
The anti-Christmas diatribes are early this year. I have been active on this forum for about 2 decades and every year before Christmas the "Christmas is pagan" diatribes begin. First you have the name wrong. It is not "solis Invictus" it is "Sol Invictus." Strike one. "Sol Invictus" was celebrated at the winter solstice which this year is Dec 21. NOT 25. Strike 2.
.....Some people when they hear something like this "pagan Christmas" nonsense they do actual research others believe anything they read online as long as it attacks or criticizes anything Christian. Nothing pagan has been incorporated into the Christian observance of the birth of Jesus. Nothing! All the commercial stuff trees, wreaths, etc. are outside the church. Christians are not responsible for what non-Christians do on Dec 25 or any other day of the year.
 
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mama2one

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Christmas and Easter are the two biggest celebrations in any and every church that we've ever attended

churches put out their nativities but they also decorate the churches whether it is poinsettias, Christmas trees, or wreaths and garland

should we therefore boycott church at Christmas time?

some churches do extra collections for the needy and one church we've attended donates the entire Christmas collection (to needy outside the church)

I'm wondering why this ^ is all wrong?

Christmas is all about HOPE

this one time of year, people act kinder, give more of their money and themselves, and there's the hope that Jesus who came to us as a baby can change the hearts of people
 
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Dan the deacon

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You can no more separate materialism from Christmas than you can separate wetness from rain. The two go hand in hand.
I suppose you are speaking of gift giving. I see nothing wrong with that. I see much wrong with how those who do not believe celebrate Christmas. But that is not how we celebrate the birth of our Lord. It is not a child's birthday party. I am pretty sure Christmas is not even his birth date. But as we do not know His actual birth date it is the day the Church decided we would celebrate his birth.
Santa and all the lies and deception are not of the Church. That is secular Christmas. To us it is the day God came to live with us as one of us. If you care not to celebrate it then don't. But you would not fit in many churches by doing so. Do you have issue with celebrating his birth? The angels didn't. The bible Doesn't. The shepherds didn't. They all worshipped. I did read your OP. I just did not agree with it. Christmas is a Christian holiday. And just like Easter, the world has made something quite different of it. But that does not make the day unholy. It shows that the world is unholy.
 
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HatGuy

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It's interesting that the "wise men" who visited Jesus at His birth were pagan. They were literally astrologers from the East. And God used something they understood (a star) to point them to Jesus.

Wonder what that's all about?
 
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