Do you believe the Orthodox Church is the rock?

JohnB445 · Oct 3, 2018

KJV Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe in what Jesus says, and there is a Church that has stood strong which I am starting to believe it is the Orthodox Church. Would the above verse imply that there is an original Church?

The view of salvation for Orthodox isn't really any different than Protestant. Orthodox believes we are saved by grace through faith. What Jesus did on the cross for us.

When it comes to losing salvation, I am still confused on this one, however. Because who would want to forfeit it?

Dan the deacon · Oct 3, 2018

I do but I am Orthodox. Quite a few choose to forfiet salvation for the here and now. It is a flesh thing. It is stupid but that is also a human issue.
I.do not think such is common but it does happen. I have seen pastors become atheists because God did not answer a prayer the way they saw fit. I habe seen a good Christian man come to hate God for allowing his wife to die. Odd as she has her reward but he got angry.

Greg J. · Oct 3, 2018

Which rock's name is going to be on your lips when torrent strikes your house?

He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” (Luke 6:48-49, 1984 NIV)

Dan the deacon · Oct 3, 2018

Greg J. said:
Which rock's name is going to be on your lips when torrent strikes your house?

He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” (Luke 6:48-49, 1984 NIV)

So what is your point?

Shempster · Oct 3, 2018

I dunno....

If you read it slowly it separates the phrases "That thou art Peter" and "upon this rock...".
The English just doesn't quite jibe on many levels.
The first part just identifies the person in the discussion. The second part speaks of a rock which is a chunk of Earth crust and is nothing like a person. It reads as if the "rock" is referring to something else...perhaps in the passages preceding it. So I looked it up. Here's what I found:

MATTHEW 16
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

So it appears that the statement "You are the Christ, the son of the living God" is the ROCK Jesus spoke of. He was saying that this profession will mark those who believe in and follow Jesus.Plus, he emphasizes “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you...
So Jesus is emphasizing Peters STATEMENT, not him as a person specifically.
Even after this event, there are events recorded about Peter that he was still sort of a wild child. He was still a little thick in the head. I believe his heart was in the right place, but he was still fully human, with all his weaknesses and shortcomings....Just like the rest of us.
Do you honestly think God would choose the "hot dog" "quick-tempered" short fuse" "shoot from the hip" Peter to be the head of his church? I would think he would have chosen a mild-mannered, quiet-type businessman to run the show if he really wanted an organized group with overlords and union dues.

Greg J. · Oct 3, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
So what is your point?

Who or what do you desire your rock to be?

thecolorsblend · Oct 3, 2018

Shempster said:
The English just doesn't quite jibe on many levels.

Yeah, it's almost like that passage wasn't written in English originally or something.

Not David · Oct 3, 2018

JohnB445 said:
KJV Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe in what Jesus says, and there is a Church that has stood strong which I am starting to believe it is the Orthodox Church. Would the above verse imply that there is an original Church?

The view of salvation for Orthodox isn't really any different than Protestant. Orthodox believes we are saved by grace through faith. What Jesus did on the cross for us.

When it comes to losing salvation, I am still confused on this one, however. Because who would want to forfeit it?

I would ask that on TAW.

There are people here who aren't Orthodox so it's obvious they are going to say no.

bekkilyn · Oct 3, 2018

The rock is Christ and what he did for us on the cross. He's the rock we build our hope upon. So no, I don't believe the Orthodox church (or any other denomination or human-created institution or organization) is the rock.

"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable to you,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer." (Psalm 19:14)

TuxAme · Oct 3, 2018

I believe that Peter (Petros) is the Rock. His name was originally Simon, but here Jesus changes his name (the only named changed by God in the New Testament) to one that literally means rock. He blesses Simon, calls his name Rock, and promises to build His Church on rock.

dzheremi · Oct 4, 2018

The Orthodox Church is not a human-created institution. The faith which is professes is revealed by God, not man, and the manner by which it professes that faith is revealed by God, not man.

The Orthodox faith is that which was confessed by St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, upon which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said that He would build His Church, so, yes, it is the rock. And when he had confessed this, Christ said to Him "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

It has always been this way, that by direct revelation from God the Church has been guided, that we worship Him in spirit and in truth, as He has revealed Himself to us. As we pray in the Agpeya/Coptic Horologion, under the heading "The faith of the Church":

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

It is not such that anyone who calls themselves or their church Orthodox ought to boast, because we didn't come up with the faith, either. The faith came to my particular Church by the preaching of St. Mark the Apostle, no differently than it came to Antioch by St. Peter and St. Paul, or to India by St. Thomas, and so on. But in all of these cases, whether from the 12 or from the 70, what our Lord and God said to St. Peter also applies to all of them, and hence through their apostolic teaching to all of us. We can and do praise St. Mark for what he brought us, but we know he didn't create anything, so much as take what he had already been given by God to new places, as they had all been told to do.

HTacianas · Oct 4, 2018

JohnB445 said:
KJV Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe in what Jesus says, and there is a Church that has stood strong which I am starting to believe it is the Orthodox Church. Would the above verse imply that there is an original Church?

The view of salvation for Orthodox isn't really any different than Protestant. Orthodox believes we are saved by grace through faith. What Jesus did on the cross for us.

When it comes to losing salvation, I am still confused on this one, however. Because who would want to forfeit it?

I believe that the Orthodox Church is the original Church founded by Jesus Christ. The Churches in Jerusalem and Antioch are the oldest and they are still there. They hold to the same faith they have held to from the beginning.

I have to point out that there is a difference between the Orthodox and protestant views of salvation. Protestants generally believe that they are "saved", past tense, while Orthodoxy holds that we are "being saved", continuing present tense. Every day, through our faith and works, we hope for salvation at the end.

And while salvation can never be taken away, salvation can be forfeited through loss of faith or gross sin.

Phil 1:21 · Oct 4, 2018

Short answer: No. Nor is it the Catholic church, the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, or any other particular denomination.

eleos1954 · Oct 4, 2018

JohnB445 said:
KJV Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe in what Jesus says, and there is a Church that has stood strong which I am starting to believe it is the Orthodox Church. Would the above verse imply that there is an original Church?

The view of salvation for Orthodox isn't really any different than Protestant. Orthodox believes we are saved by grace through faith. What Jesus did on the cross for us.

When it comes to losing salvation, I am still confused on this one, however. Because who would want to forfeit it?

Jesus/God is the rock ... His church is built upon Him. The church is the body of believers who believe in Him ... and His church "members" encompass the entire globe.

Psalm 78:35

And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24

But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15

"But Jeshu run grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3

"The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 42:9

I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29

You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12

Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32

"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31

For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2

"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31

"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7

On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1
Verse Concepts
To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3

In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2

From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3

Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4

"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22

But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

2 Samuel 22:3

My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

God Bless

Francis Drake · Oct 4, 2018

To claim that the Orthodox Church is the rock of Matt16 is to insult the Lord. The same goes for the Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc churches.

Thank you @eleos1954, for your excellent list of scriptures, you saved me the trouble.
The starting point of any interpretation of Matt16 has to be in searching the scriptures to find if the "rock" is referred to elsewhere, and as you show, it is extensively used as a title of the Lord himself.
From beginning to end the rock has always been God himself, so anyone attributing the title to a man or church is insulting Christ himself, the one and only the rock of salvation.

I will also add one very significant verse.-
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
This could not be clearer. The Rock is neither Orthodox nor Catholic Church, nor Peter the man (Greek = pebble not rock) nor Peter's revelation.

There is only one rock and that is Christ Jesus.

But do go on and read the rest of the verses posted by @oleos1954.

eleos1954 said:
Jesus/God is the rock ... His church is built upon Him. The church is the body of believers who believe in Him ... and His church "members" encompass the entire globe.

Psalm 78:35

And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24

But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15

"But Jeshu run grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3

"The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 42:9

I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29

You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12

Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32

"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31

For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2

"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31

"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7

On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1
Verse Concepts
To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3

In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2

From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3

Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4

"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22

But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

2 Samuel 22:3

My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

God Bless

Dan the deacon · Oct 4, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Yeah, it's almost like that passage wasn't written in English originally or something.

Ya think?

Dan the deacon · Oct 4, 2018

Francis Drake said:
To claim that the Orthodox Church is the rock of Matt16 is to insult the Lord. The same goes for the Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc churches.

Thank you @eleos1954, for your excellent list of scriptures, you saved me the trouble.
The starting point of any interpretation of Matt16 has to be in searching the scriptures to find if the "rock" is referred to elsewhere, and as you show, it is extensively used as a title of the Lord himself.
From beginning to end the rock has always been God himself, so anyone attributing the title to a man or church is insulting Christ himself, the one and only the rock of salvation.

I will also add one very significant verse.-
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
This could not be clearer. The Rock is neither Orthodox nor Catholic Church, nor Peter the man (Greek = pebble not rock) nor Peter's revelation.

There is only one rock and that is Christ Jesus.

But do go on and read the rest of the verses posted by @oleos1954.

Or the rock is steadfast faith. The rock is anything steady and unmoving.

bekkilyn · Oct 4, 2018

I have a lot of respect for Peter the apostle, but he isn't my Rock and my Redeemer. He's not and never will be God. Building a church around anything other than Christ is idolatry.

Francis Drake · Oct 4, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
Or the rock is steadfast faith. The rock is anything steady and unmoving.

Can you not read? The scriptures are extremely specific in countless places that it is the Lord alone who is the rock.

I suggest you look at an online concordance such as biblehub.com and search under the words rock and God, or rock and salvation, or rock and Lord.

Francis Drake · Oct 4, 2018

bekkilyn said:
I have a lot of respect for Peter the apostle, but he isn't my Rock and my Redeemer. He's not and never will be God. Building a church around anything other than Christ is idolatry.

Amen amen and amen.

Added to which, the Greek is clear that Peter was not a rock, he was a stone or pebble!

Do you believe the Orthodox Church is the rock?

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