Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

ViaCrucis

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I posted asking how to start a new thread, and thought this was just for technical questions, but maybe it is for all threads. So...
I wonder a lot about these two questions. Many scriptures seem to make it plain that people go to hell forever, but others imply everyone will be saved.
And do you think Jesus went to hell for us, for 3 days?

In the Apostles' Creed we confess that Christ descended into hell, by this we mean He descended into the place of the dead, She'ol or Hades. As the Apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians that Christ descended into the lower regions, this has been interpreted since ancient times to mean His descent to the place of the dead. Hence the Christian teaching on the Harrowing of Hell. Christ's descent to the place of the dead is an act of conquest and victory. As St. John Chrysostom says, "Hell received a body and encountered God"

"Let no one fear death, for the Death of our Savior has set us free.
He has destroyed it by enduring it.
He destroyed Hell when He descended into it.
He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh.

Isaiah foretold this when he said,
'You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below.'
Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.

Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.

O death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!

Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!
"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JackRT

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People might be interested to know that "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible. Sheole, Hades and Gehenna are mentioned but none of them carry the meaning of "hell" in what has become the traditional Christian sense of the word. Hell is an Anglo Saxon word whose meaning seems to be a conflation of the three Bible terms mentioned above. Perhaps we should try to understand what the Bible actually says rather than imposing centuries of interpretation on it.
 
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Der Alte

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<RM>Der Alter, the problem with all those verses is, they were all written before Jesus, when people did not believe in an after life, as I understand it anyway. But then why did David say if my soul goes down to hell, you are with me?, if he did not believe in an after life? Was it metaphorical?
Not to debate with myself :) but I guess I am. Just trying to understand. Is it not true that the Jews do not and did not believe in an after life, then or now? I need to do more research!
<end>
It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life. If God inspired the scripture and I am absolutely convinced that He did then we should understand/interpret the scripture exactly as they are written.
.....As I understand David there is no place in the entire universe where God's people are separated from Him.
.....Some Jews did not believe in an afterlife, i.e. the Sadduceees did not believe in the resurrection. Others did, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol. See this link.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Der Alte

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<JRT>People might be interested to know that "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible. Sheole, Hades and Ghenna are mentioned but none of them carry the meaning of "hell" in what has become the traditional Christian sense of the word. Hell is an Anglo Saxon word whose meaning seems to be a conflation of the three Bible terms mentioned above. Perhaps we should try to understand what the Bible actually says rather than imposing centuries of interpretation on it.<end>
All this is the internet explanation of hell etc.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
Note, scripture references highlighted in blue.
When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.


 
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Der Alte

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he that ascended is also he that descended into the lower parts of the earth and brought captivity captive.
From memory so might not be worded exactly.
The lower parts of the earth does not refer to hell.
Ephesians 4:8-9
(8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Isaiah 44:23
(23) Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
There are no mountains, forests or trees in hell shouting and breaking forth in singing. The lower parts of the earth refers to the earth which is lower than heaven.
 
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ClementofA

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<RM>Der Alter, the problem with all those verses is, they were all written before Jesus, when people did not believe in an after life, as I understand it anyway. But then why did David say if my soul goes down to hell, you are with me?, if he did not believe in an after life? Was it metaphorical?
Not to debate with myself :) but I guess I am. Just trying to understand. Is it not true that the Jews do not and did not believe in an after life, then or now? I need to do more research!
<end>
It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life. If God inspired the scripture and I am absolutely convinced that He did then we should understand/interpret the scripture exactly as they are written.
.....As I understand David there is no place in the entire universe where God's people are separated from Him.
.....Some Jews did not believe in an afterlife, i.e. the Sadduceees did not believe in the resurrection. Others did, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol. See this link.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

First you say:

"It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life."

Then why do you go on to speak about what "Some Jews...believe" & "did not believe" & among some Jews "there was a belief in a place..." & refer to a Jewish site & say "See this link" re the Jewish site with Jewish beliefs?

Are you Jewish?

And, BTW, there was an ancient Jewish belief roughly 1900 to 2000 years ago that there are those who go down to hell and come up again & another Jewish belief that hell will cease, etc.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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The lower parts of the earth does not refer to hell.
Ephesians 4:8-9
(8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Isaiah 44:23
(23) Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
There are no mountains, forests or trees in hell shouting and breaking forth in singing. The lower parts of the earth refers to the earth which is lower than heaven.


"Ye lower parts of the earth.—These, as in Ephesians 4:9, are equivalent to Sheol, or Hades. Even they, commonly thought of as echoing no song of praise (Psalm 6:5; Psalm 88:12; Isaiah 38:18), are invited to join in the great doxology."

Isaiah 44:23 Commentaries: Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory.

"(9) The lower parts of the earth.—This may mean either the regions of the earth, as “lower” than heaven, or the regions beneath the earth. The reasoning of the text in itself would be satisfied by the former. For St. Paul is simply arguing that the use of the phrase “ascended” from earth to heaven implies a previous corresponding descent, which must be from heaven to earth; exactly as in John 3:13, “No man hath ascended into heaven, but He that came down from heaven.” But form and usage of the phrase itself seem to point to the other meaning, which is held by almost all ancient interpreters and most moderns. It agrees with the strong expression of “filling all things,” in Ephesians 4:10, and is possibly suggested by the leading captive of the powers of hell and death. Though, perhaps, injurious to the strictness of the antithesis, it is quite accordant with St. Paul’s manner to introduce thus a fresh idea beyond the simple idea of descent, which is sufficient for his argument: “He descended—yea, even to the realms below.” For this idea is most apposite to that frequent reference to spiritual powers of evil found in this Epistle, and it may be thought to correspond by antithesis to the “far above all heavens” of the next verse."

Ephesians 4:9 Commentaries: (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

"The great majority indeed, especially among Patristic and Lutheran exegetes, understand Paul to affirm that Christ after His death made a manifestation of Himself in triumph to the world of the departed, and fulfilled a certain ministry there."

Ephesians 4:9 Commentaries: (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
 
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ClementofA

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…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel

snip...and you also posted:

The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]


So those - Jewish - beliefs say:

"hell shall pass away" and

"All that descend to Gehenna", i.e. hell, "shall come up again..." with only 3 exceptions.

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ClementofA

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…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources, the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,
But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?


• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50


Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

Early church opposition to endless hell


• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alte

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<Clem>
snip...and you also posted:
So those - Jewish - beliefs say:
"hell shall pass away" and
"All that descend to Gehenna", i.e. hell, "shall come up again..." with only 3 exceptions.
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism<end>
Irrelevant obfuscation. In my post I acknowledged that there were different beliefs among the Jews. Does any of this obfuscation disprove or refute anything I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica or the Talmud?
 
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Pneuma3

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Greg j., I was trying to respond to your statement that showed up in my email, but it takes me to this one instead, so it seems my difficulty with this website is not just me.
In the one in my email you said the scripture about "savior of all men, especially those who believe", was about him dying for all but that not all would be saved. But if you take the scripture as stated, it clearly says savior of all men, especially those who believe. So you are taking other scripture and substituting it for this one.
You may be right, but that does not explain this one, and I am one to take scripture as stated, thus my original questions.
Also you quoted that the demons believe in God too, and then said something like that puts unbelievers on the same level as demons, but that is your own addition, not scripture as stated. That one is simply saying that believing God exists is not enough, even the demons believe that. It does not say peoole are the same as demons.
And as for tne scripture above about not taking gospel other than what we preach, my questions on this issue come directly from reading scripture as stated, not from wishing for some other gospel or God.
I desire to understand scripture, as it is stated.

Hi Robin
Look at the whole chapter. In it you will see Paul telling tim to hold fast to the doctrine that was given him as there are doctrines of devils out there that would try to persuade people from the truth. That so there would be no misunderstanding to what doctrine was being handed down Paul says.


This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.


So any other doctrine according to Paul that teaches anything other then what we are commanded to teach is according to Paul a doctrine of devils.
 
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Pneuma3

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I suggest you stop listening to people's ideas and start spending more time in prayer about what you want the Holy Spirit to reveal to you (along with studying Scripture)

Talk to your pastor regularly as a self-check.

huh? switching advice in mid stride
 
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Pneuma3

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But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8-9, 1984 NIV)

and what gospel is that?

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
 
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ClementofA

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In my post I acknowledged that there were different beliefs among the Jews. Does any of this obfuscation disprove or refute anything I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica or the Talmud?

Why would Jewish beliefs be relevant to you? Especially since you yourself said:

It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life.

Furthermore, Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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1213

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Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

Bible tells Jesus didn’t go in hell, when hell means the eternal fire, second death, where soul and body are destroyed. By what I know, he went to grave or hades.

I don’t think Bible tells anyone will be saved from hell, that is why I don’t believe that will happen.
 
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Robin Mauro

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If Jesus is the savior of all men, especially to those who believe, as it states in 1 Timothy, yet the Bible also clearly states people will also go to hell, the only way that I can think of to reconcile these two seemingly opposing concepts is if Jesus saves peoole out of hell too....not that anyone would want to go to hell, for even a minute.
 
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Robin Mauro

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Paul himself wrote, savior of all m
Hi Robin
Look at the whole chapter. In it you will see Paul telling tim to hold fast to the doctrine that was given him as there are doctrines of devils out there that would try to persuade people from the truth. That so there would be no misunderstanding to what doctrine was being handed down Paul says.


This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.


So any other doctrine according to Paul that teaches anything other then what we are commanded to teach is according to Paul a doctrine of devils.
Paul himself wrote savior of all men, especially to those who believe.
Why did he write this if it is untrue? This does not nullify anything he said before, just adds to it.
 
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Robin Mauro

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Thanks
<RM>Der Alter, the problem with all those verses is, they were all written before Jesus, when people did not believe in an after life, as I understand it anyway. But then why did David say if my soul goes down to hell, you are with me?, if he did not believe in an after life? Was it metaphorical?
Not to debate with myself :) but I guess I am. Just trying to understand. Is it not true that the Jews do not and did not believe in an after life, then or now? I need to do more research!
<end>
It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life. If God inspired the scripture and I am absolutely convinced that He did then we should understand/interpret the scripture exactly as they are written.
.....As I understand David there is no place in the entire universe where God's people are separated from Him.
.....Some Jews did not believe in an afterlife, i.e. the Sadduceees did not believe in the resurrection. Others did, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol. See this link.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Thanks
 
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