Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Oct 3, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
So if God wants to save the whole world and Gods omnipotence is not limited by man's will whatsoever why do you not believe the whole world will be saved?

The only way you can get around that conundrum is by believing God did not want to save the whole world.

Is that what you believe?

(1) You said: "If God wants to save the whole world". I agree. God states that in 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Pet 3:9.
(2) You said: "God's omnipotence is not limited by man's will." I agree. I can cite many things God says in Scripture. Let's start with God created us. The mere fact that we can choose to be disobedient and choose to not believe in the very One who created us is not a testimony to His limited power, but a testimony to His unlimited power. Think about it, if we can truly be disobedient even to the ultimate point of disbelieving our Creator even exists, then He didn't create robots but truly living creatures who can even act stupidly enough to think they can overthrow the absolute Sovereign who created them (as evidenced in Revelation). And, Revelation also testifies to how quickly God dispels of that revolt. Again, His power on display.

(3) You said: "Why do you not believe the whole world will be saved?" My answer: Because God said so. Again, there are so many passages.

(4) You said: "the only way to get around that conundrum is by believing that God did not want to save the whole world." My answer: No, that is not the only way to handle the apparent discrepancy. God can want something to happen while constraining Himself from forcing it to happen. Just because God doesn't force something to happen, doesn't mean that God couldn't force it to happen. He just chooses not to. God has a sovereign reason for willfully allowing man (God chose this first) to make an abiding choice to be reborn into a living relationship with Him and escape judgment that would otherwise claim everyone. Jesus said The Father wants those who will worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4). How can you worship in Spirit and Truth autonomically? You can't. You have to have the free will to do it; just like you need the free will to choose to love someone. It means nothing if you are autonomically compelled and don't even know why. If everyone wanted to worship Him in spirit and in truth, because all WILLFULLY came to the knowledge of the Truth and repentance and therefore none perished but all were saved from His wrath, why wouldn't God want that? But, He is determined to have willing (as opposed to autonomic) worshippers and desires that above the desire that all be saved.

I don't think God's Absolute Sovereignty is damaged one iota by His decision to let humans make a choice. I think it brings Him genuine glory. Just like in our world, without free will there is no such thing as love. Without free will, there is no such thing as obedience. Without free will, God gets no genuine worship--just a bunch of autonomic robots who are incapable of doing anything other than obeying Him because of their preprogramming. But, He desires living entities who make a willful choice to worship and obey Him and because of that, He is willing to endure disobedient loss as well.

So, if we were all sentence to "be under His wrath" and sentenced to "death", the choice He gives us if whether we want to remain there or escape that wrath. He tells us how to escape His wrath; but He doesn't force us to take it. The fact that He doesn't force us, doesn't lessen His Absolute Sovereignty. He absolutely could force us. He chooses not to, because He knows that forcing us (making us robots who simply without choice followed commands) has no value for Him. The idea that He could create creatures who could choose to get to know Him and choose to love Him and choose to worship Him is what allows His creation to bring value back to Him. If only one were to do that, it would be worth it to Him. After all, we were all dead and none of us worshipped Him in spirit and truth from the start.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Oct 3, 2018

royal priest said:
The aspect of the God's glory which is decreased by free-will doctrine is related to God's sovereignty over His Creation, in general. In God, we live, and move, and have our being. He determines the culture and environment in which we are reared. He also determines our personal life-experiences. All of these work to shape our perspectives, thought-processes, and motion of our wills. As the rivers of water, so is the heart of the king in the hand of the Lord; He directs it as He pleases.

I believe He is Absolutely Sovereign; but I don't believe He uses that Absolute Sovereignty to absolutely control all the factors you mentioned. If He was absolutely controlling everything, everything wouldn't look like it does.

You believe God determines everything. I don't. I don't see the value for God, if He makes autonomic worshippers versus willful worshippers, like Jesus suggested He wanted in John 4. If you believe things are predetermined, you cannot believe your worship of God is anything more than autonomic--written into the script of your life. You have no choice, but to worship. You can believe what you want.

I believe my choice wasn't predetermined and thus matters to God. And, I believe since my worship isn't autonomic, that it brings God greater glory than it would if He just pre-wired me to have to worship Him.

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
The Old Covenant hung from the Two Great Commandments. Nobody had the Ten but Israel up until Jesus abolished them.

“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

“And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” etc., etc. (Exodus 20:1–3)

royal priest · Oct 3, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I believe He is Absolutely Sovereign; but I don't believe He uses that Absolute Sovereignty to absolutely control all the factors you mentioned. If He was absolutely controlling everything, everything wouldn't look like it does.

You believe God determines everything. I don't. I don't see the value for God, if He makes autonomic worshippers versus willful worshippers, like Jesus suggested He wanted in John 4. If you believe things are predetermined, you cannot believe your worship of God is anything more than autonomic--written into the script of your life. You have no choice, but to worship. You can believe what you want.

I believe my choice wasn't predetermined and thus matters to God. And, I believe since my worship isn't autonomic, that it brings God greater glory than it would if He just pre-wired me to have to worship Him.

Jesus is the vine. Without Him I can do nothing. If I live for Him then it is because He is producing that fruit from within a dead sinner. I am no better than any unbeliever. God, by that very power He used when He raised Jesus from the dead, makes the difference in me. He is every ounce of my hope and confidence. Soli Deo Gloria

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 3, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus,

[I'm sorry, I still don't understand how this idea brings God glory. ]

not yet...

[If God takes total control ]

God is always in total control...He does not have to "take control". It helps to speak of God by accurately saying what He has revealed about Himself.

[and just makes some be saved and others not saved ]

Are you seeking to advise a perfectly wise God how He should do things?

[AND neither subset of humanity has the freedom to make any choice that corresponds to which group they end up in, how exactly does that bring glory to God?]

Both groups make choices according to their nature

[And, if our free will is not exploited and developed here, I'm guessing that your glorious vision of heaven is that we simply retain our puppethood--unable to choose for or against God? ]

Free will apart from your nature does not exist....

[So, we aren't really even "like angels" like Jesus said because even angels could make choices (see Satan and his third).]

we make choices against God every day until God saves us.

A

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

“And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” etc., etc. (Exodus 20:1–3)

The two are a summary of the ten.
They did not just place two commandments into the ark of the Covenant.
They put all ten in there.

TCassidy · Oct 3, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
The two are a summary of the ten.
They did not just place two commandments into the ark of the Covenant.
They put all ten in there.

Agreed. I am astounded at how many Christians are oblivious to the meaning of Christ's words regarding the summery of the 10 Commandments.

Love the Lord you God. Your relationship with God.

1. You shall have no other gods before. God's Supremacy.

2. You shall not make for yourself an image. God's Holiness.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. God's Name.

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. God's day.

5. Honor your father and your mother. God's representatives in the family.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Your relationship with others.

6. You shall not murder. Respect his life.

7. You shall not commit adultery. Respect his vows.

8. You shall not steal. Respect his property.

9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Respect his reputation.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Respect his acquisitions.

All 10 summarized in 2.

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
The two are a summary of the ten.
They did not just place two commandments into the ark of the Covenant.
They put all ten in there.

No, the Ten HUNG from the Two. The two must already exist before the Ten can hang from them.
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
No, the Ten HUNG from the Two. The two must already exist before the Ten can hang from them.
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

I already explained this...all ten are unfolded completely in Deuteronomy....TC just laid it out...in the previous post

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
I already explained this...all ten are unfolded completely in Deuteronomy....TC just laid it out...in the previous post

But, the Two preceded the Ten. They could not hang from them otherwise. The Two remain, Christ replace the ten with the New Covenant.

drich0150 · Oct 3, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

Jesus Himself says we are slaves. Slaves to sin or we can choose to be a slave to God. (granted we will wind up in a better position if you approach him as a servant.) So we simply choose. Does God know what we will choose yes? does it mean he orchestrates what we choose.. no. Just because you know how a movie will end does not mean you wrote it directed it or produced it. it may simply mean you've seen it already.

I know we are slaves because Jesus said so.
I know we have a choice because again Jesus point it out
I know we can serve God or we can serve satan again jesus said so
I know God know what we will choose. because I know.. God is outside of time.

Imagine this line is all of time you are outside of this line. You see the beginning and the end at the same time and you see the letters in the middle. now if you were to live on this line you could only see a letter (major event) as you came up to it and you could not see past. How ever being outside of this time line you can see it all. you know what letters start where they are and how they finish without touching and or manipulating anything.

_____i____1______i______J______II_________P.

The same is true with God. He can see the line of time that we live on just like you can see this time line I've draw, and like you He does not have to move the letters around to observe how things will simply play out.

TCassidy · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
But, the Two preceded the Ten.

No. You are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
The Two are like the first and last links of a chain, all the ones in between hang on them. One end of the chain is anchored in the extreme past (eternity past - and yes, I am aware that is an oxymoron) the other in the extreme future (eternity future - and again an oxymoron). True "religion" begins and ends in love to God and man. These are the two grand links that unite God to man, man to his fellows, and men again to God.

Dave L said:
They could not hang from them otherwise.

You are relegating God's love in the past. It is not. His love is Eternal. Anchored in both past and future.

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

TCassidy said:
No. You are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
The Two are like the first and last links of a chain, all the ones in between hang on them. One end of the chain is anchored in the extreme past (eternity past - and yes, I am aware that is an oxymoron) the other in the extreme future (eternity future - and again an oxymoron). True "religion" begins and ends in love to God and man. These are the two grand links that unite God to man, man to his fellows, and men again to God.You are relegating God's love in the past. It is not. His love is Eternal. Anchored in both past and future.

The Ten were for wicked unbelievers. The Two are for believers.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

TCassidy · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
The Ten were for wicked unbelievers. The Two are for believers.

You never seem to get the point, do you? What part of "True "religion" begins and ends in love to God and man" didn't you understand?

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

TCassidy said:
You never seem to get the point, do you? What part of "True "religion" begins and ends in love to God and man" didn't you understand?

So we have 12 commandments now? where is that in scripture?

TCassidy · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
So we have 12 commandments now? where is that in scripture?

Okay, that confirms it. You never seem able to understand the point.

Loren T. · Oct 3, 2018

TCassidy said:
It seems to me you are a universalist.

Ahh, yes the favorite Calvinist tactic.... If you can't answer the question, throw in a diversion.

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

TCassidy said:
Okay, that confirms it. You never seem able to understand the point.

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

The Two Great Commandments preceded the Ten. The Two have love for their motive. The Ten had death threats and reward as their motive for the most part. The Born Again naturally did all the Ten Required and more. But the wicked could not even do the Ten at their lowest demands.

Christ replaced the Ten with the New Covenant (the Two) on the cross. We use the Ten for commentary and instruction, but walk in the light of the Two.

1stcenturylady · Oct 3, 2018

Dave L said:
As I understand, before we experienced the Holy Spirit we had only the flesh to draw from. So we were not free to choose beyond the limits of the flesh.

I would say that an unsaved person can also choose to do good. Adam ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just evil.

Dave L · Oct 3, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I would say that an unsaved person can also choose to do good. Adam ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just evil.

They do good but for the wrong reason.

Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

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