What is it about?

ewq1938

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This seems to neglect God's holiness.
If a offender were to stand before a judge and the judge said, "I forgive you because I love you" and them let the offender go free, that would be an unjust judge. The person committed a crime and the penalty must be paid.
But, if the judge were to say what the penalty was, and them pay the penalty himself, and then say, "You are forgiven, you are free". That would be a just judge.

This is what Christ did on our behalf. We were the offender and God the Judge. We were guilty of a crime and were unable to pay the penalty, so God gave His only begotten Son to pay our penalty.

There are two penalties though. The one of sin sacrifice that we couldn't pay and the other is the second death which a person can pay but doesn't want to.
 
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BobRyan

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Matthew 26:36-46 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 He took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and became anguished and distressed. 38 Then he said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, even to the point of death. Remain here and stay awake with me." 39 Going a little farther, he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not what I will, but what you will." 40 Then he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. He said to Peter, "So, couldn't you stay awake with me for one hour? 41 Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if this cup cannot be taken away unless I drink it, your will must be done." 43 He came again and found them sleeping; they could not keep their eyes open. 44 So leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same thing once more. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is approaching, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Get up, let us go. Look! My betrayer is approaching!"

Why did Jesus pray that way? What is it about?

Jesus was in an extreme situation - and wanted out. But would not let that extremity deter Him from following the Father's perfect will.
 
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BobRyan

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But Jesus did endure torture and punishment. He suffered the death penalty.

That was outwardly - and it only amounted to the torture of one man... but Jesus suffered far more than that -- the torture and death owed by each and every sin - for all of mankind.
 
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BobRyan

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Do you think that is how it all works, God punishes Jesus on the cross because you did bad things?


sorta

2 Cor 5: 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Phil 2:5 ...in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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The wages or result of sin is the second death.
Yes, but people are not saved because they did not sin. So in one sense sins don't matter. Those in heaven and hell both have sinned. The difference is faith that brings atonement for sins.
The first death happens because we are created mortal beings.
Not what God said.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

But, many think the first death a curse, it is a blessing to not live forever in this sinful world.
 
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ewq1938

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Not what God said.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”


That only strengthens my position that man is created mortal and needs the tree of life (Christ) to have immortality.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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That only strengthens my position that man is created mortal and needs the tree of life (Christ) to have immortality.
No it does not. There is a tree of life and river of life in the next age.

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.​
 
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ewq1938

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bling

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Because “for” means “for” and “in place of” does not mean “instead of.”
The only Greek word used in the first century consistently translated: in exchange of, payment for, because, instead of, or "in place of" is “anti” used 22 times in the NT, but as I said only twice in reference to the atonement process. The other Greek words translated “for” mostly convey the idea of the gift being “for” you or this happened “because of” you.

When we read “died for our sins”, it is not Christ’s death “in place of” our sins (that does not make sense), but “because of” our sins.


I truly can’t believe given the context of every passage I produced is not explanatory and the context is not clear enough.
In every one of these verse you could exchange the Greek word translated “for” in the English with another likely translation of that Greek word which can be: because of, on account if, on behalf of, for the sake of, as a benefit to.

Your only considering one definition of the English word “for” which the translates did not require.
Perhaps because scholars of Hebrew and Greek don’t use lexical aides like a Chinese menu?
This has nothing to do with the translating scholars but the inspired writers of the NT and the Greek word they chose.
 
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bling

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This is not a clear statement. Please explain.
There is a huge difference between the humane way sacrificial animals were killed and the way Christ was murdered. When we talk about the "death" of Christ we are mostly referring to the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ, because Christ could give up His life at any time or call angels to take him down at any time, Christ gave up His own life stopping the pain and suffering. Christ moving from life on earth to life in heaven was like our dying without the suffering He did. Yes, Christ had to die in order to rise again, but the significance of the death is in the suffering.
 
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bling

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Seems like you have a theory of the atonement to offer and it is one you formulated for yourself? Or is it one that you learned from another - perhaps a book or from the teaching of a church?
I studied with four sincere Muslims about "why Christ went to the cross" and found my answers and the answers in books were illogical, not consistent and really did not make since, which was the conclusion of my Muslim friends. I went back to all the scriptures, thought about it logically, prayed a lot about it and felt I was being led to another alternative explanation. These Muslims told me in the end: "if that is the way it is than we cannot argue with that conclusion." They were open to talking more, but to this day they have not yet become Christians, but hopefully I set a seed.
 
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bling

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The wages or result of sin is the second death. The first death happens because we are created mortal beings.
From the context it would appear that “the wages of sin is death” is being contrasted with “gift of God is eternal life” so second death would work.

It sounds like if you do not want to receive the wage from sin, you need to obtain the gift of eternal life from God?

We earn the second death by sinning, but we do not earn eternal life because it is a gift.

How in this description of Ro. 6:23 is Christ paying anything, since the only payment being talked about is for sin and to us.

Our sins always make us deserving of the second death as a wage and really undeserving of eternal life, but there is nothing suggesting Christ took our payment and God gifts us eternal life.

If you have the gift from God of eternal life, why would the second death not be avoided?

There is nothing in this passage that says: “Someone, even an innocent person, has to accept my wage”, if the second death is being avoided by having eternal life?
 
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bling

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This seems to neglect God's holiness.
If a offender were to stand before a judge and the judge said, "I forgive you because I love you" and them let the offender go free, that would be an unjust judge. The person committed a crime and the penalty must be paid.
But, if the judge were to say what the penalty was, and them pay the penalty himself, and then say, "You are forgiven, you are free". That would be a just judge.

This is what Christ did on our behalf. We were the offender and God the Judge. We were guilty of a crime and were unable to pay the penalty, so God gave His only begotten Son to pay our penalty.
You are making this out to be like a traffic ticket where the Judge pays it and lets you go.

The first thing to realize is the “crime” is an unbelievable huge offence against the Almighty Judge. It is not some crime against society or some “Law”, but directly against the Judge Himself.

The “penalty” (punishment) is forever separation from the Judge.

What could possibly be “done” in the positive to offset this crime directly against an infinitely Powerful Judge?

I would suggest nothing, it is beyond being paid for, even any portion of it.

The main thing to realize is the Judge you gravely offended is also your Loving Father. Some appointed judge or a judge sworn to preside over some “Law” is controlled by that Law created by others, but that is not the case with God. God our Father is like the father in the prodigal son story, yes, He will be totally fair/just, consistent and Loving. As the very best Parent, God can forgive His children of anything, but if at all possible He also needs to see to our Loving just disciplining which is not the same as the punishment given to those not accepting the disciplining.

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
 
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GingerBeer

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I studied with four sincere Muslims about "why Christ went to the cross" and found my answers and the answers in books were illogical, not consistent and really did not make since, which was the conclusion of my Muslim friends. I went back to all the scriptures, thought about it logically, prayed a lot about it and felt I was being led to another alternative explanation. These Muslims told me in the end: "if that is the way it is than we cannot argue with that conclusion." They were open to talking more, but to this day they have not yet become Christians, but hopefully I set a seed.
Do you see no dangers in inventing your own theology of the atonement? What guarantee do you have that your theory is any better than the ones you rejected?
 
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bling

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Do you see no dangers in inventing your own theology of the atonement? What guarantee do you have that your theory is any better than the ones you rejected?
The real danger is teaching others something that is not the truth and you can get untruths from others or from your own study.
I mostly teach by asking questions and answering questions with questions.
I can certainly tell you what I feel and have experienced and just quote scripture, without saying this is the way you need to feel or understand the scripture.
Pointing out the personal problems "I" am having with other interpretations is not telling them an untruth.
I do not have confident in myself, but the Spirit within me is always right if I am not quenching the Spirit at the time. The Spirit will not be with you if your learning is for the wrong motive.
When I study with nonbelievers like my Muslim friends I want them to be as open to new ideas as I am, I want us to learn together, use only the scripture (no commentaries [Muslims have written Bible commentaries also]), pray and think.
 
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redleghunter

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There is a huge difference between the humane way sacrificial animals were killed and the way Christ was murdered. When we talk about the "death" of Christ we are mostly referring to the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ, because Christ could give up His life at any time or call angels to take him down at any time, Christ gave up His own life stopping the pain and suffering. Christ moving from life on earth to life in heaven was like our dying without the suffering He did. Yes, Christ had to die in order to rise again, but the significance of the death is in the suffering.
Why was the suffering significant?
 
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redleghunter

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How in this description of Ro. 6:23 is Christ paying anything, since the only payment being talked about is for sin and to us.

Romans 6:
20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness.21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The passage speaks of eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Paul spent 3 chapters on explaining Christ as both the expiatory and propititory for mankind.
 
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ewq1938

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Why was the suffering significant?

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
 
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redleghunter

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Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Thank you. I was asking Mr Bling the question based on his version of the atonement.

But yes what you quote supports satisfaction and substitution.
 
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