How does God recognize a marriage if its not a sacred sacrament?

FireDragon76

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Yes. I'm very on the fence about this.
Personally, I wouldn't feel married if using a civil ceremony. Since God instituted marriage, I'd want to be in a church.

Following your way of thinking (which is not unique) then SSMs are indeed valid since God need not be present.

The idea sounds very secular to me and not spiritual.
In Jewish tradition is was also a communal celebration, and Jesus did come from that community.

In our Lutheran tradition, we do consider marriage to be a secular institution that is blessed by God. The secular ordering of the world is part of God's ordering of creation. Secular societies need not be particularly Christian as such, but they should be lawful and respect human rights.
 
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Loren T.

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Marriage is a covenant, between a man, a woman, and God. Modern day marriage is often seen as a contract, which is it's weakness. With a contract, if another party is seen to not be holding up their end, you can cancel the contract. A covenant with God is a different story.
 
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Francis Drake

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Why is it unfortunate for me?
You're the one who refutes history.
How does one refute history?
You are being silly. In no way have I refuted history, as its obvious that both Catholic and Orthodox churches have clearly perpetuated the doctrine of apostolic succession. But despite all the huffing, puffing and pontificating, it still has no biblical authority.
Jesus said religious tradition rendered God's word of no effect? Didn't Jesus obey religious tradition? Can you tell me one law He disobeyed and broke His Jewish Tradition? I can't think of any.
Jesus condemned and rejected the traditions of the Pharisees. You can read about it in your bible if you want to.
What Jesus DID DO was to preach against hypocricy...
washing of the outside of the body, but not the inside.
He corrected some traditions, such as giving a certificate of divorce. But, of course, He did not break any laws.
Straw man argument. I never denied any of this, so no need to correct me on stuff I agree with.
Mark 7:6-8
I don't think you read the above verses in context, otherwise you wouldn't just quote Paul below, which adds nothing to your argument.
In 1 Corinthians 11:2, Paul plainly states that Tradition is a good quality to have.
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
There are good traditions and bad ones. You need to discern the difference both in life and scripture, otherwise you will be confused.
I initially referred to what Jesus said in verse13 below,
Mark7v9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
I hope you can see the difference between the Pharisee traditions which nullify the word of God, and the traditions in the Mosaic Law which exalt the word of God?
Simply put, the false tradition of apostolic succession nullifies the priesthood of all believers!
However, FD, we are not discussing tradition here, to which you have veered off.

You veered off when you went on about your tradition of apostolic succession as if it counted for anything.
We're discussing history.
If you wish not to be concerned with history, that is your prerogative.
Its genuine history I'm concerned with, not fakery of man made traditions.
I don't care that you have daft traditions that go back 1000 years or more, but when you claim it's rooted in scripture, I will challenge it as fake history.
Jesus taught the Apostles, the Apostles taught others, such as Ignatius, those taught others, and so on and so on. We can attribute to the Early Church Fathers the faith we enjoy today. Tertullian, Iraneaus and others certainly kept the Traditions started by the Apostles, as the original Apostles were exhorted to do.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 Peter 5:1-3

and other verses.
Not sure how you think these help your argument.
But we derail this thread about marriage.

Is marriage not a tradition?
Should we abolish this tradition too?
Another empty straw man argument. Would you care to show me anywhere I suggested we should abolish marriage.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Marriage is a covenant, between a man, a woman, and God. Modern day marriage is often seen as a contract, which is it's weakness. With a contract, if another party is seen to not be holding up their end, you can cancel the contract. A covenant with God is a different story.
Correct.
A covenant cannot be broken.
A contract is between two persons,,,
A covenant is with God.
A contract provides for sevices,
A covenant provides for a relationship.
 
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GodsGrace101

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In our Lutheran tradition, we do consider marriage to be a secular institution that is blessed by God. The secular ordering of the world is part of God's ordering of creation. Secular societies need not be particularly Christian as such, but they should be lawful and respect human rights.
How is marriage a secular institution?
What about Adam and Eve?
When did marriage become a secular institution??
 
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Not David

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If the notion of apostolic is truly scriptural, then its origin should be found in scripture.
Unfortunately for you, apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is of course well founded in religious tradition, which as Jesus pointed out, rendered the word of God to no effect.
Religious tradition decided the canon of the Bible.
 
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FireDragon76

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How is marriage a secular institution?
What about Adam and Eve?
When did marriage become a secular institution??

Something that is secular is not intrinsically religious. Even non-Christians and irreligious people marry, and their marriages are recognized as valid by Christians.

Adam and Eve didn't go to a church and have a pastor or priest marry them. Their marriage was not religious in that sense.

At my church at the beginning of school year Pastor blesses backpacks of the schoolchildren. Backpacks are not religious in nature, but nonetheless the pastor chooses to bless them, because we believe God blesses learning and children in general. This is something analogous to the rite of marriage in our churches. God blesses them, so we choose to recognize that through a formal rite. But in no way does it imply that marriage is a specifically religious institution.
 
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GodsGrace101

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You are being silly. In no way have I refuted history, as its obvious that both Catholic and Orthodox churches have clearly perpetuated the doctrine of apostolic succession. But despite all the huffing, puffing and pontificating, it still has no biblical authority.
I note a change in tunes. (pun intended).
Please check your posts no. 21 and 31 where you clearly stated that Apostolic Succession is a man-made tradition, and, in fact, in your post no. 21 you called it hocus pocus made up by man.

I'm very happy to see that you've read up on it and have now accepted a historical fact...Apostolic succession is as real as George Washington being the first President.

Jesus condemned and rejected the traditions of the Pharisees. You can read about it in your bible if you want to.
Straw man argument. I never denied any of this, so no need to correct me on stuff I agree with.

I don't think you read the above verses in context, otherwise you wouldn't just quote Paul below, which adds nothing to your argument.
Yes. I'll try really hard to read my bible.
No problem.

There are good traditions and bad ones. You need to discern the difference both in life and scripture, otherwise you will be confused.
I initially referred to what Jesus said in verse13 below,
Mark7v9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
I hope you can see the difference between the Pharisee traditions which nullify the word of God, and the traditions in the Mosaic Law which exalt the word of God?
Simply put, the false tradition of apostolic succession nullifies the priesthood of all believers!
You were going good until your last sentence.
HOW does Apostolic succession nullify the priesthood of all believers? Did Jesus give instruction to the Apostles to go and teach and baptize, or did He tell ALL His DISCIPLES to do the same?
Mathew 28:19-20

You veered off when you went on about your tradition of apostolic succession as if it counted for anything.

Its genuine history I'm concerned with, not fakery of man made traditions.
I don't care that you have daft traditions that go back 1000 years or more, but when you claim it's rooted in scripture, I will challenge it as fake history.

Not sure how you think these help your argument.
Another empty straw man argument. Would you care to show me anywhere I suggested we should abolish marriage.
Don't YOU have traditions that go back over 1,000 years? Are we not both Christian?
Re marriage: since you don't seem to believe in tradition, and marriage is a Christian tradition, should we also abolish that? This was my point.

I don't enjoy arguing, BTW, if you want to discuss OK, if you want to get mean, I'm afraid you'll have to find a different opponent.
 
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FireDragon76

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Following your way of thinking (which is not unique) then SSMs are indeed valid since God need not be present.

God is always present in creation sustaining it and restraining evil (John 5:17). It is a mistake to think something must be religious, or religiously sanctioned, for God to be present there and doing God's work. That was Luther's whole point in objecting to the Catholic attitude that religious work was especially holy. All work that is done out of love is holy and is God's work.
 
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Chris V++

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Even non-Christians and irreligious people marry, and their marriages are recognized as valid by Christians.
Maybe they aren't really recognized as valid by all Christians. If a tradition or denomination has a doctrine claiming only their specific church sacraments are valid, and if they consider marriage a sacrament, then it follows that any marriages conducted outside that church would have to be invalid.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Something that is secular is not intrinsically religious. Even non-Christians and irreligious people marry, and their marriages are recognized as valid by Christians.

Adam and Eve didn't go to a church and have a pastor or priest marry them. Their marriage was not religious in that sense.

At my church at the beginning of school year Pastor blesses backpacks of the schoolchildren. Backpacks are not religious in nature, but nonetheless the pastor chooses to bless them, because we believe God blesses learning and children in general. This is something analogous to the rite of marriage in our churches. God blesses them, so we choose to recognize that through a formal rite. But in no way does it imply that marriage is a specifically religious institution.
Actually, something that is SECULAR is NOT religious.
I do believe this is what you meant.

Civilly married couples are not really recognized as married by believers. My niece is civilly married - her parents are born again Christians and they still would like for her to marry in a church and make it a Christian marriage.

God made Eve for Adam and they shared their life. God was involved with their life. It's commonly accepted theology that God did create marriage between a man and a woman.

This is one of the reasons I don't care for the govt stepping in and changing God's rules...for example SSM, which I've mentioned, or marriage between an adult and a child, or marriage between unconsenting adults, etc.

So the backpacks are blessed...how about a marriage?
Back packs and houses are blessed because they should be for the service of God, as you said.

A marriage should also be for the service of God, or to God.

I do understand your POV, I've heard it before.
 
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FireDragon76

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Maybe they aren't really recognized as valid by all Christians. If a tradition or denomination has a doctrine claiming only their specific church sacraments are valid, and if they consider marriage a sacrament, then it follows that any marriages conducted outside that church would have to be invalid.

Orthodox and Catholics do believe that non-Christian marriages are valid, provided they are between a man and a woman only, but they lack sacramental grace that would make them a means of union with God for working out ones salvation. However, they can be received into the Church and become a means of theosis or sacramental grace in their own right.
 
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GodsGrace101

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God is always present in creation sustaining it and restraining evil (John 5:17). It is a mistake to think something must be religious, or religiously sanctioned, for God to be present there and doing God's work. That was Luther's whole point in objecting to the Catholic attitude that religious work was especially holy. All work that is done out of love is holy and is God's work.
Agreed.

(except I don't believe God restrains evil but allows it to be present)
 
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GodsGrace101

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Orthodox and Catholics do believe that non-Christian marriages are valid, provided they are between a man and a woman only, but they lack sacramental grace that would make them a means of union with God for working out ones salvation. However, they can be received into the Church and become a means of theosis or sacramental grace in their own right.
This is not right.
I don't know about the Orthodox but I do know Catholic doctrine and if one is not married in a church (not necessarily Catholic) he cannot be the Godparent to a child being baptized.
 
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Chris V++

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Orthodox and Catholics do believe that non-Christian marriages are valid, provided they are between a man and a woman only, but they lack sacramental grace that would make them a means of union with God for working out ones salvation.
So Orthodox and Catholics will acknowledge outsider marriage as valid but have determined God Himself doesn't recognize the validity since God was excluded from the marriage covenant? Isn't that the exact assertion of the OP?
 
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FireDragon76

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This is not right.
I don't know about the Orthodox but I do know Catholic doctrine and if one is not married in a church (not necessarily Catholic) he cannot be the Godparent to a child being baptized.

I suspect that has to do with the necessity of a sponsor at baptism being a Christian, and ideally a member of the congregation in good standing. We have the same rule in the Lutheran church. An atheist uncle can't be a godparent.
 
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FireDragon76

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So Orthodox and Catholics will acknowledge outsider marriage as valid but have determined God Himself doesn't recognize the validity since God was excluded from the marriage covenant?

A marriage ceremony or rite is not magic. One cannot "invoke" God like a genie. God is always present to witness our conduct and promises towards one another.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I suspect that has to do with the necessity of a sponsor at baptism being a Christian, and ideally a member of the congregation in good standing. We have the same rule in the Lutheran church. An atheist uncle can't be a godparent.
Right, it's the same.
The person has to be a practicing Christian and they also have to be married in a church; otherwise they're seen as co-habiting, even if civilly married. I just noticed your avatar and am feeling uncomfortable discussing this since I believe a persons relationship with God is between them and God and not anyone else...(like why am I debating this with you??)
 
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Chris V++

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A marriage ceremony or rite is not magic. One cannot "invoke" God like a genie. God is always present to witness our conduct towards one another.
I personally agree with you, I just starting to believe they might not agree. So by extension they, Catholic and Orthodox, shouldn't recognize one another's marriages either, since they mutually excommunicated one another. Look at the title of the thread. Will the church with the actual, authentic sacred sacraments please step forward.
 
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GodsGrace101

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A marriage ceremony or rite is not magic. One cannot "invoke" God like a genie. God is always present to witness our conduct and promises towards one another.
God always sees our heart and our intent.
 
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