If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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ClementofA

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"Shall all be well? Will the Goodness which is God’s own nature from which He created all things, and with which all things derive their aboriginal goodness be restored? Or shall there be some space in the vaults of eternity where evil and darkness and privation still persist? To answer this, I will lean heavily on the arguments of David Bentley Hart in his 2015 essay, “God, Creation, and Evil: The Moral Meaning of Creatio ex Nihilo ”. Hart threw down an iron gauntlet upon nearly the whole Christian theological tradition when he argued, “the God in whom the majority of Christians throughout history have professed belief would appear to be evil (at least, judging by the dreadful things we habitually say about him).” No amount of hand waving and easy dismissals can escape the gravity of Hart’s moral claim in this statement. To assert that God consigns any of his creatures to the unending torments of hell, whether by predestining them to this estate or allowing them to choose it freely, is a moral claim on the highest order – and such claims must be justified if they are to hold any moral value whatsoever. If Christians wish to assert that God is not merely good, but Goodness in himself, and that all he creates is good, while also claiming some portion of his handiwork is doomed to eternal ruin, surely we must supply some kind of countervailing evidence that would allow us to name God as Good in any morally meaningful sense while something so manifestly horrible as the everlasting destruction of his creatures continues to be a feature of his creation."

A Moral Argument for Apokatastasis
 
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he-man

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"Shall all be well? Will the Goodness which is God’s own nature from which He created all things, and with which all things derive their aboriginal goodness be restored? Or shall there be some space in the vaults of eternity where evil and darkness and privation still persist? To answer this, I will lean heavily on the arguments of David Bentley Hart in his 2015 essay, “God, Creation, and Evil: The Moral Meaning of Creatio ex Nihilo ”. Hart threw down an iron gauntlet upon nearly the whole Christian theological tradition when he argued, “the God in whom the majority of Christians throughout history have professed belief would appear to be evil (at least, judging by the dreadful things we habitually say about him).” No amount of hand waving and easy dismissals can escape the gravity of Hart’s moral claim in this statement. To assert that God consigns any of his creatures to the unending torments of hell, whether by predestining them to this estate or allowing them to choose it freely, is a moral claim on the highest order – and such claims must be justified if they are to hold any moral value whatsoever. If Christians wish to assert that God is not merely good, but Goodness in himself, and that all he creates is good, while also claiming some portion of his handiwork is doomed to eternal ruin, surely we must supply some kind of countervailing evidence that would allow us to name God as Good in any morally meaningful sense while something so manifestly horrible as the everlasting destruction of his creatures continues to be a feature of his creation."
Psalms 9:4 For you have upheld my right and my cause,
sitting enthroned as the righteous judge.
5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
6 Endless ruin has overtaken my enemies,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
7 The Lord reigns forever;
6 The Lord is known by his acts of justice;
the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead,
all the nations that forget God.


The End of the Wicked: Psalm 9 By Timothy Tennent - January 28, 2018

Psalm 9:1 (NIV) "I will sing the praises"
1 I will give thanks to you, Lord, with all my heart;
I will tell of all your wonderful deeds.
2 I will be glad and rejoice in you;
I will sing the praises of your name, O Most High.
3 My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
4 For you have upheld my right and my cause,
sitting enthroned as the righteous judge.
5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
6 Endless ruin has overtaken my enemies,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
7 The Lord reigns forever;
he has established his throne for judgment.
8 He rules the world in righteousness
and judges the peoples with equity.
9 The Lord is a refuge for the oppressed,
a stronghold in times of trouble.
10 Those who know your name trust in you,
for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
15 The nations have fallen into the pit they have dug;
their feet are caught in the net they have hidden.
16 The Lord is known by his acts of justice;
the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead,
all the nations that forget God
.
18 But God will never forget the needy;
the hope of the afflicted will never perish.
19 Arise, Lord, do not let mortals triumph;
let the nations be judged in your presence.
20 Strike them with terror, Lord;
let the nations know they are only mortal.
Psalms 9:1
1I’ll praise You, Lord, give thanks with all my heart;
Tell of Your wonders, and exult in Thee.
2I will be glad, praise to Your name impart;
O, Lord Most High, I sing and worship Thee.

3My foes turn back, they stumble before Thee;
4For You do see and maintain my just cause.
You sit on high, and judging righteously,
5You rebuke nations who do spurn Your laws.
You have destroyed the wicked enemy;
You blotted out their name forevermore,
6Uprooted all their cities thoroughly.
Ruin has come—their mem’ry is no more.

7But the Lord reigns enthroned in justice pure;
8He judges all the world in righteousness.
His upright judgment is established sure;
He judges people with true uprightness.

9The Lord’s a refuge for oppressed ones, too;
He is their stronghold in their time of need.
10Let those who know Your name put trust in You;
You don’t forsake those who seek You indeed.

11Sing to the Lord, enthroned in Zion’s place;
Declare among the nations all His deeds.
12He who avenges blood still sees their face;
Cries of afflicted ones the Lord God heeds.

13Lord, see my enemies, and don’t forget;
See my affliction from the ones who hate.
Have mercy—lift me from the gates of death,
14That I may tell Your praise in Zion’s gate.

I’ll find joy in Your saving work alone;
15The nations sink into the pit they’ve made.
The Lord has made Himself be clearly known;
Their foot is caught within the net they laid.

16The Lord is known by justice that stands firm;
In their own work the wicked are ensnared.Selah
17All who forget God to She-ol return;
18But poor and needy will not perish there.

19Arise, O Lord, don’t let mere man prevail.
Let nations come, be judged before Your throne.
20Strike them with fear, Lord—let the nations know
they are but men, and You are God alone.

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Th 2:8 And then shall the lawless be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

see Fudge, Final End of the wicked p. 334
 
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ClementofA

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The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man".

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about:

Psalms 9:4 For you have upheld my right and my cause,
sitting enthroned as the righteous judge.
5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.


The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

More literal, accurate & honest Bible versions state:

You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further. (Psa.9:5, CLV)

Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond. (Psa.9:5, Rotherham)

Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever*. (Psa.9:5, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

ἐπετίμησας ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἀπώλετο ὁ ἀσεβής τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν ἐξήλειψας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (LXX)

εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος meaning literally for the aion and for the aion of the aion [i.e. for the eon and into the eon of the eon]

The wicked of Sodom were destroyed from life on earth in this eon. Psa.9:5 of the Hebrew OT says it will continue "beyond"[AD, 5703] that, or as the LXX Greek OT says,
into the "eon of the eon", which may be a reference to the millennial eon. Clearly the millennial eon is not endless, but has an end, so cannot be "for ever" let alone "for ever
and ever". There is no hint of final destiny suggested in Psalm 9:5.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S:
and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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he-man

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The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man".

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about:




The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

More literal, accurate & honest Bible versions state:

You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further. (Psa.9:5, CLV)

Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond. (Psa.9:5, Rotherham)

Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever*. (Psa.9:5, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

ἐπετίμησας ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἀπώλετο ὁ ἀσεβής τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν ἐξήλειψας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (LXX)

εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος meaning literally for the aion and for the aion of the aion [i.e. for the eon and into the eon of the eon]

The wicked of Sodom were destroyed from life on earth in this eon. Psa.9:5 of the Hebrew OT says it will continue "beyond"[AD, 5703] that, or as the LXX Greek OT says,
into the "eon of the eon", which may be a reference to the millennial eon. Clearly the millennial eon is not endless, but has an end, so cannot be "for ever" let alone "for ever
and ever". There is no hint of final destiny suggested in Psalm 9:5.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S:
and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Olam perpetually Psalms 131:1 what a farce your quote exposes your mis-understanding
 
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he-man

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The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man".

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about:




The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

More literal, accurate & honest Bible versions state:

You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further. (Psa.9:5, CLV)

Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond. (Psa.9:5, Rotherham)

Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever*. (Psa.9:5, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

ἐπετίμησας ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἀπώλετο ὁ ἀσεβής τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν ἐξήλειψας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (LXX)

εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος meaning literally for the aion and for the aion of the aion [i.e. for the eon and into the eon of the eon]

The wicked of Sodom were destroyed from life on earth in this eon. Psa.9:5 of the Hebrew OT says it will continue "beyond"[AD, 5703] that, or as the LXX Greek OT says,
into the "eon of the eon", which may be a reference to the millennial eon. Clearly the millennial eon is not endless, but has an end, so cannot be "for ever" let alone "for ever
and ever". There is no hint of final destiny suggested in Psalm 9:5.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S:
and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Olam forever Psalms 9:5; Psalms 131:1 H5769 Perpetually What a farce you can't even translate correctly. Malachi 4:1
 
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Light of the East

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If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.

I will add to that.

If the whole modus operandi of "getting saved" is that you not only get every one of your doctrines and understandings about God correct, but that you eschew any heresy about Him, and furthermore, you must belong to the "correct" (that is, the one, only, true, and orthodox) Church which He establishes and of which in that Church alone is salvation, then for God to allow the following to take place also means He is a monster.

1. Not immediately killing and removing from the earth any and all heretics the minute that they utter the first wrong word about Him or His Church, thereby allowing them to deceive and trick the simple-minded into eternal, fiery torment.

2. Not immediately killing and removing from the earth any man who would establish any body of worship with man-made rules of worship so that the simple-minded would offend God by offering faux worship and thus wind up in hell.

3. Allowing a multitude of "churches" and doctrines to exist at the same time, each one claiming to be THE truth to which you must be obedient or suffer eternal fiery torture forever.

4. Allowing the devil, who is supposedly defeated, to wage war on us by means of temptation, false teachers, heresies, and the like which will, according to "orthodox" eschatology, result in our eternal, fiery torment forever if we follow them instead of the truth. To allow such is akin to asking a five year old to fight and beat Hulk Hogan "or else!" (fiery torment).

5. Not chaining up the defeated Satan and his minions so they cannot tempt us in to destroying our own souls by following their lies.

6. If Satan is allowed to roam the earth and put out temptations, not given us very clear and concise warnings that what we are hearing will damn us forever.

7. Allowing the leaders of the Christian religion to act more like pagans than followers of Christ so that we become confused, frightened, and ultimately turn to atheism because we cannot believe that any God would allow such men to exist without punishment.

8. Allowing false miracles, visions, dreams, and the like from competing religious bodies so that these miracles seem to present the church they are done in and the people who do them as being truly from God. Not giving us angelic warnings of which miracles are false and which **might** be true so as to save our souls from following false teachers into an eternity of fire and misery.

9. Not speaking to us during our times of prayer and seeking Him. Not clearly directing us in such a manner as to find the true Church, to find Christ, and to have a deep, personal, and beautiful relationship with Him which leads us away from the fire and to Him.

In other words......we are darkened by sin, utterly blinded by it, groping around in a spiritual darkness that is impenetrable, hearing voices in the darkness calling to us to come "this way" or "that way" which voices many times are false, and yet we are expected to act as if we can see, and our soul avoiding the fires of hell depends on us having something that was taken from us at the fall of man in the Garden - spiritual truth and sight.

It is like blindfolding a child, putting him in the middle of a burning house, and then having 20 voices calling to him to "come here" "no, over here" and watching him burn to death.

Honestly, when I see all that "traditional" Christianity believes in regarding all this, I really do understand atheism. No loving God could be that crazy or monstrous.
 
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mkgal1

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Honestly, when I see all that "traditional" Christianity believes in regarding all this, I really do understand atheism. No loving God could be that crazy or monstrous.
I agree - thankfully there's a whole other way of looking at it (where God *is* portrayed as abundantly loving and where His love actually wins....not just for some, but all).
 
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Der Alte

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. . . The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)
. . .
Showing a total lack of knowledge of Hebrew.
1917 Jewish Publication Society Psa 9:5 (9:6)
Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast blotted out their name for ever and ever
Figures of Speech used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger
EPIZEUXIS: or, DUPLICATION.
The Repetition of the same word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEM INATLO, pronounced Gem.i—na’—tio, which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling. It is also called ITERATIO (It'-er-a.ti-o), iteration ; Conduplicatio0 (con-dü-pli.ca -tio), conduplica tion, or full doubling.
when the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS, pronounced Ep-i-zeux-is. It is the Greek word epizeuxis from “epi”, upon, and “zeugnumi” , to yoke, or join closely together. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it.In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger 1etters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking. it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence.
How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! p 189
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The LORD your God is God or Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,” etc.
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 3:5 A Hebrew of the Hebrews,” i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
1 Tim. vi. 15.—”The King of kings, and Lord of lords.. Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. I .
Rev. 1: 6.—” The ages of the ages,” i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p. 284
certain words are generally plural: e.g., (aionios). This may be to mark the fact that eternity is made up or successive ages:
the singular referring either to one such age; or, including all, as a whole. Hence we have . eis ton aiona unto the ages or for ever (Matt. xxi. 19. John vi. 5l. 58. I Pet. i. 25 from Isa. xl. 8. etc.). p. 531

Figures of speech used in the Bible:
 
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Light of the East

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. . . The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)
. . .
Showing a total lack of knowledge of Hebrew.
1917 Jewish Publication Society Psa 9:5 (9:6)
Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast blotted out their name for ever and ever
Figures of Speech used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger
EPIZEUXIS: or, DUPLICATION.
The Repetition of the same word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEM INATLO, pronounced Gem.i—na’—tio, which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling. It is also called ITERATIO (It'-er-a.ti-o), iteration ; Conduplicatio0 (con-dü-pli.ca -tio), conduplica tion, or full doubling.
when the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS, pronounced Ep-i-zeux-is. It is the Greek word epizeuxis from “epi”, upon, and “zeugnumi” , to yoke, or join closely together. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it.In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger 1etters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking. it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence.
How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! p 189
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The LORD your God is God or Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,” etc.
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 3:5 A Hebrew of the Hebrews,” i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
1 Tim. vi. 15.—”The King of kings, and Lord of lords.. Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. I .
Rev. 1: 6.—” The ages of the ages,” i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p. 284
certain words are generally plural: e.g., (aionios). This may be to mark the fact that eternity is made up or successive ages:
the singular referring either to one such age; or, including all, as a whole. Hence we have . eis ton aiona unto the ages or for ever (Matt. xxi. 19. John vi. 5l. 58. I Pet. i. 25 from Isa. xl. 8. etc.). p. 531

Figures of speech used in the Bible:


This is quite interesting, and I do appreciate the time and effort you put into sharing it. I will certainly add this to my list of things to which I feel I need to give more thought.

I would, however, like to ask if you would mind responding to the questions/concerns I have posted in Post # 586. If eternal, fiery, unrelenting torment is true, then could you explain how a God who has said in Scripture that He wills the salvation of all could allow such things to go on, seeing that these actions are responsible for tricking people into damning themselves by their own choices in the darkness of their own minds?

As bad as it is to find out that we have been snookered out of some money or property in this life, how much worse is it that God allows us to experience severe deceptions, temptations, and outright lies which, if you are correct, lead us into a place of eternal suffering and misery?

What do such actions and such an end say about the character of God (if you are correct?)

Thank you.​
 
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Der Alte

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<LOTE>
This is quite interesting, and I do appreciate the time and effort you put into sharing it. I will certainly add this to my list of things to which I feel I need to give more thought.
I would, however, like to ask if you would mind responding to the questions/concerns I have posted in Post # 586. If eternal, fiery, unrelenting torment is true, then could you explain how a God who has said in Scripture that He wills the salvation of all could allow such things to go on, seeing that these actions are responsible for tricking people into damning themselves by their own choices in the darkness of their own minds?
As bad as it is to find out that we have been snookered out of some money or property in this life, how much worse is it that God allows us to experience severe deceptions, temptations, and outright lies which, if you are correct, lead us into a place of eternal suffering and misery?
What do such actions and such an end say about the character of God (if you are correct?)
Thank you
.<end>
Gladly. Here is a passage from Jeremiah about God's will.
In vs. 11 God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
.....During world war 2 Czech freedom fighters assassinated a Nazi colonel in the village of Lidice, Czechoslovakia. In reprisal here is what the Germans said they did.

“All [173] male inhabitants have been shot. The women have been transferred to a concentration camp. The children have been taken to educational centers. All houses of Lidice have been leveled to the ground, and the name of this community has been obliterated.”
Read more: The Lost Children of the Lidice Massacre | History | Smithsonian
I think everyone would agree that was horrible, terrible, monstrous etc. But God did the same thing in Genesis 19:24-25 when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, every living thing and all the vegetation in the land. Do we say that was monstrous, terrible, horrible etc?
 
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ClementofA

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Gladly. Here is a passage from Jeremiah about God's will.
In vs. 11 God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
.


Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
..

Jer.13:7-14 does - not - say that. It says God - caused - them to cleave to Him.

As to the purpose of God Almighty, Love Omnipotent, being fulfilled:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

<P3>For your reading pleasure.
Saviour of all
1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
It is Gods will for all men to be saved, yet many of Gods own people stand up and say even though it is Gods will that all be saved He cannot perform it. I have asked why and the standard answer is because of man unbelief. What! shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid . . . . There is only one conclusion, His WORD returned void. Believe what you will, I believe His WORD will do exactly what He came to do. Like it or not brothers and sisters Gods WORD Jesus Christ will fulfill to the fullest exactly what He came to do, THE SALVATION OF ALL...<end>
And to this I reply. Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Yet nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Read the scripture again.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
This is God speaking, so don't quote anything but God speaking. Show me where God Himself said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jerem., because they rejected Him, "Oops
I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy you?

Show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

You keep trying to shift the burden of proof to me when it is all yours. Here is what scripture says.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
God is speaking in this verse, Can you show me any verse where God Himself is speaking, not Paul or some other writer, said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jer 13:14.,
because they rejected Him, "Oops I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy and save them?

If He didn't have pity - as regards the particular judgment in view - of the context - and killed them, how does that address what happens to them postmortem? Does He say
that after He destroys/kills them that He will - never - have mercy on them in the afterlife also? Or is the passage completely silent about any postmortem consequences?
Does the context even mention "hell"? No. Compare this a few chapters later from the same book & author:

Jeremiah 21:7
"Then afterwards," declares the LORD, "I will give over Zedekiah king of Judah and his servants and the people, even those who survive in this city from the pestilence, the
sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their foes and into the hand of those who seek their lives; and he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword. He will not spare them nor have pity nor compassion."

Which proves the "not sparing" & not "having pity" is related to this life only and the particular judgement in view - in the context - i.e. being killed..."he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword". It has nothing to do with anything beyond this life, or postmortem consequences.

Show me where that quote or context says after He destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that He would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


---
 
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ClementofA

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<Clem>Can you show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also NEVER have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved<end>
What part of God, Himself, saying "I [God]will not pity, [I God will not ]spare, [I God will] destroy them? Do you think God did not mean "I will not have pity" when He said it? Do you think "I will not have mercy" means "sometime in the future I will have mercy?"
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH]I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The burden of proof is on you, and/or all other UR-ites, to prove from scripture that God decided to change His mind and sometime in the future He would have pity and mercy and would undestroy the unfaithful and disobedient Israelites in Jer 13. Your 2 proof texts from Jn and 1 Jn do not, cannot supersede the words of God Himself. There is no NT verse or verses which can supersede the plain meaning of the scriptures I quoted.


You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.

When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?

When God "destroyed" the world with a flood, children & babies included, He did not "spare" the world, or have "mercy" (the same words Jer.13:14 uses) but did "destroy" (same English word as Jer.13:14) the people of the world. Does that prove these people (babies included) could not be saved postmortem? No. And IMO the same applies to Jer.13:14. Now let's see you try to refute that. Also note that Jer.13:14 refers to "fathers and sons". How young might some of those "sons" be? Do you suppose babies will be frying in hell for all eternity, like Augustine (the so-called champion of eternal punishment) believed?

To give another example, God make the king in Daniel 4 eat grass like an animal for 7 years. God did not "spare" him from this ordeal, nor have "mercy" on him to pardon him from this punishment, but instead subjected him to this insanity (a destruction of his soul) for 7 years. Yet afterwards the king was restored to sanity, humbled & worshipped God.

Consider also the following passages from the Bible & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

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Light of the East

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I appreciate your effort, but your answer A.) leaves more questions for me than it answers. B.) does not address the question I asked you.

First of all, as ClementofA has said in other posts, if God foreknew that the sentient beings He would create would A.) fall from grace B.) be eternally separated from Him and C.) because of A and B suffer excruciating and eternal agony and torment, then how is He not a monster? Especially if He created us knowing all this and yet did not have, in His omnipotence, an answer for this dilemma.

How would it not be far, far better (although I think it not as good as eternal life) to punish then just snuff out every wicked soul? You haven't given me a reason why God is not monster for creating such a situation.

I looked up the word used in the OT for "destroy." It can have several meanings and several uses, as shown by the following:

שָׁחַת
Transliteration
shachath
Pronunciation
shä·khath'

It can mean to destroy, but it also has the meaning of "to ruin."

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt H7843 before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Destroyed or ruined?

Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled H7843 it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

Well, that's certainly an interesting translation of shachath?

You make a comparison between Nazi war criminal/thugs and God's destroying. I honestly don't think this is an apples to apples comparison. One shot and the suffering for those in Lidice was over. This, as unjust, horrible, and bad as it is, is hardly on a par with a suffering that continues ad infinitum. You simply cannot compare the two.

Furthermore, to equate eternal suffering with covenant punishment for disobedience is, in my opinion, hardly equal. You are trying to make the destruction of an OT covenant community into the same thing as an eternal torment. I'm sorry, I don't see it.

Finally, you make the appeal to God's will VS man's will, stating that man's will prevails and he self-condemns himself to eternal torment. This brings me back to my first point - God, knowing that He is so weak that He will not be able to create sentient beings that He can save from themselves and the fall that is going to for sure happen, goes ahead and does it anyway. If He does this, how am I supposed to feel that we are anything other than pretty much just worthless little specks of nothing in the vast universe?

I am really not trying to be contentious here. These things bother me - a lot.
 
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ClementofA

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. . . The KJV has the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)
. . .
Showing a total lack of knowledge of Hebrew.
1917 Jewish Publication Society Psa 9:5 (9:6)
Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast blotted out their name for ever and ever
Figures of Speech used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger
EPIZEUXIS: or, DUPLICATION.
The Repetition of the same word in the Same Sense.
When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEM INATLO, pronounced Gem.i—na’—tio, which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling. It is also called ITERATIO (It'-er-a.ti-o), iteration ; Conduplicatio0 (con-dü-pli.ca -tio), conduplica tion, or full doubling.
when the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS, pronounced Ep-i-zeux-is. It is the Greek word epizeuxis from “epi”, upon, and “zeugnumi” , to yoke, or join closely together. The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words.
It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it.In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger 1etters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking. it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence.
How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! p 189
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The LORD your God is God or Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,” etc.
I Kings viii. 27.—The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee..: i.e., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.—” Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity,
Song Sol. i. i.—”The song of songs,” i.e., the most beautiful or excellent song.
Dan. ii. 37. Ezek. xxvi. 17.—” A king of kings”: i.e., the most mighty king.
Dan. 47.—” God of gods”: i.e., the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince of princes”: i.e., the most Powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15.—” So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness.’, The figure is here translated, and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil..
Micah ii. ._“ A 1amentation of 1amentations,. i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Phil. 3:5 A Hebrew of the Hebrews,” i.e., a thorough Hebrew. See this verse under Asyndeton.
1 Tim. vi. 15.—”The King of kings, and Lord of lords.. Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. I .
Rev. 1: 6.—” The ages of the ages,” i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. p. 284
certain words are generally plural: e.g., (aionios). This may be to mark the fact that eternity is made up or successive ages:
the singular referring either to one such age; or, including all, as a whole. Hence we have . eis ton aiona unto the ages or for ever (Matt. xxi. 19. John vi. 5l. 58. I Pet. i. 25 from Isa. xl. 8. etc.). p. 531

Figures of speech used in the Bible:

Irrelevant to the comments you responded to which had no "repetition" of words.
LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD] is not a "Repetition of the same word".

As to Bullinger's comments, i've addressed them before as follows:


Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger. Since Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15:25), His reign "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15) cannot be for ever and ever. Nor can "ages of the ages" be for ever and ever, since it ends along with Christ's reign for the "ages of the ages".

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

(3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

(4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless.
Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

(5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT
(eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire is not eternal & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

Summing up the argument:

- eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
- eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
- which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
- therefore his punishment is finite &
- his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
- the eons of the eons themselves are finite

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 
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But God did the same thing in Genesis 19:24-25 when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, every living thing and all the vegetation in the land. Do we say that was monstrous, terrible, horrible etc?

We don't, everyone dies, & did any infants & children there go straight to heaven when they died? But it should be embarrassing to try to compare Sodom's destruction with the unbelievably horrific monstrosity of endless tortures, which makes Love Omnipotent appear infinitely worse than Satan, Hitler & Stalin combined. An eternity of pain is not the same as the pain of an instant death. Eternity is quite a long time:

"Buddhist teachers asked their pupils to imagine a cart loaded with 20 kharis of sesame seed, from which once every century one tiny seed was removed; yet when the whole cartload had gone, they would still be in the first Hell, and thousands of further Hells lay beyond it. The young James Joyce was told to imagine a mountain of grains of sand a million miles high, a million miles wide and a million miles thick, from which every million years a little bird carried away one grain of sand; and when the mountain was removed, not a single instant of eternity would have ended."

Into everlasting fire
 
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....As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age"....
Your response, as always, is unadvised, biased, and irrelevant. You might want to educate yourself about who Bullinger was and it would be considerably educational to actually consult Bullinger's preface to his book. I provided a link to his book "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." I previously informed you that Bullinger was a UR-ite. Henceforth whenever you give your biased opinion about the meaning of Greek or Hebrew words I will expect evidence to support you viewpoint. What is your argument against the 1917 JPS verse I quoted?.
 
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<Clem>You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.
When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?...<end>
All irrelevant. Anybody can say "I'm right and you'e wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Which is essentially what you are doing here. What a human judge can/cannot, might/might not do or say is irrelevant to the nth degree. God's actions are not influenced or dependent on what finite, imperfect human do, think or feel. Can you provide a cogent argument of substance? Also God is not influenced or dependent on your finite human sensibilities.
 
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ClementofA

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I previously informed you that Bullinger was a UR-ite.

From my reading on the subject it seems that you are wrong & you've never provided anything except your unsupported opinion that "Bullinger was a UR-ite" (that is, that he advocated universalism).
 
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ClementofA

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<Clem>You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.
When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?...<end>

All irrelevant. Anybody can say "I'm right and you'e wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Which is essentially what you are doing here. What a human judge can/cannot, might/might not do or say is irrelevant to the nth degree. God's actions are not influenced or dependent on what finite, imperfect human do, think or feel. Can you provide a cogent argument of substance? Also God is not influenced or dependent on your finite human sensibilities.

Irrelevant. My analogy shows that Jer.13:14 can be interpreted in harmony with universalism. And you ignored the rest of my post's arguments for the same conclusion. So for a number of reasons your "proof text" fails as "proof text" argument against UR.

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From my reading on the subject it seems that you are wrong & you've never provided anything except your unsupported opinion that "Bullinger was a UR-ite" (that is, that he advocated universalism).
Then what you need to do amigo is quote some of that "reading" here rather than just make vague references to it.
Irrelevant. My analogy shows that Jer.13:14 can be interpreted in harmony with universalism. And you ignored the rest of my post's arguments for the same conclusion. So for a number of reasons your "proof text" fails as "proof text" argument against UR....
Your argument here is nothing but more, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the OT. Jer 13:14
Thus shall Judah be broken without mercy or pity. To increase the emphasis, there is a cumulation of expressions, as in Jer_21:7; Jer_15:5, cf. Eze_5:11; Eze_7:4, Eze_7:9, etc.
Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light,
 
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