Abomination of Desolation spoke of by the Prophet Daniel

claninja

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Since there is no regular burnt offering or abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Daniel 12:1-10, and Daniel 11-12 are all a part of the same vision, does that mean Daniel 12:11 is referring back to Daniel 11:31?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate


 

DavidPT

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Since there is no regular burnt offering or abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Daniel 12:1-10, and Daniel 11-12 are all a part of the same vision, does that mean Daniel 12:11 is referring back to Daniel 11:31?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate




Let's check something else in Daniel 12 as well.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Is there any reason that wouldn't be referring to the following?

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The first thing we need to try and determine, what is verse 32 referring back to? In verse 32 we see it involves the covenenant.

Daniel 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

These things involve the covenant meant in verse 32 as well, apparently. This should tell us verse 32 involves verses 28-31, where verse 31 seems to be referring to verse 11 in Daniel 12, and that verse 35 seems to be referring to verse 10 in Daniel 12. What are the chances both chapters can be speaking of the same things, yet not be meaning the same events? Or what are the chances that Daniel 11:35 and Daniel 12:10 are referring to the same events, but that Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 aren't? Couldn't that get pretty confusing if that were the case?
 
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claninja

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Let's check something else in Daniel 12 as well.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Is there any reason that wouldn't be referring to the following?

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

I agree, Daniel 12:10 seems to going back to Daniel 11:35, just as Daniel 12:11 seems to be going back to Daniel 11:31.

However, Daniel 12:1-10 is about a future event from Daniel 11:31-35. So it seems like when Daniel asks for clarification on this vision, the angel doesn't really answer him.

Daniel 12:8-9 Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Then the angel goes backwards (Daniel 12:10-11) to address Daniel 11:31-35?

The first thing we need to try and determine, what is verse 32 referring back to? In verse 32 we see it involves the covenenant.

Daniel 11:1-35 fit the rise of Greece, the Seleucid/Ptolemy kingdoms, and the rise of Antiochus IV perfectly. So I would definitely agree, that Daniel 11:32 is in regards to the old covenant. Antiochus did corrupt many Jews who forsook the old covenant, and many of the Jews that remained strong in the old covenant were persecuted.

These things involve the covenant meant in verse 32 as well, apparently. This should tell us verse 32 involves verses 28-31,

Daniel 11:29-30 perfectly correlates with Antiochus IV attacking Egypt a 2nd time, but failing as the Romans (ships from Kittim) aided Egypt. Upon failing his Egyptian conquest, Antiochus returned to Judea furious because the Jews had begun to worship according to the law again. So yes, I would agree that these verses are also about the old covenant.

What are the chances both chapters can be speaking of the same things, yet not be meaning the same events?

Pretty slim I would bet. Daniel 12:10-11 seems to be talking about Daniel 11:31-35.
 
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shilohsfoal

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It may help you if you compare these things to revelation.
The reason the israelis who understand in daniel 11:33 is because they have believe in Christ and have the revelation of jesus Christ .

The wicked who do not understand in Daniel 12:10 are those israelis who deny Christ and are without instruction from revelation.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase."

Go to and fro -Daniel-Gospels-Revelation.

Ps,dont let any of these people persuade you into belie ing the time of the end was thousands of years ago nor were the seals of this opened then.
 
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Douggg

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Since there is no regular burnt offering or abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Daniel 12:1-10, and Daniel 11-12 are all a part of the same vision, does that mean Daniel 12:11 is referring back to Daniel 11:31?
No, because there is a gap to the end times from Daniel 11:35 to the willful king in Daniel 11:36, who is the beast of Revelation 13.

The Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 is the image of the beast made in Revelation 13. The 1290 days and 1335 days have to be placed exactly in the right place on the 7 year timeline for everything to work out. This is where most people go wrong trying to interpret Daniel 12.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Douggg

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It is not to make Jerusalem desolate - but makes the temple absent from any worship and praise of the One True God, stopping the daily sacrifice in the process.

Jerusalem will not be made desolate because of the occupation of the armies of the beast in Revelation 11:2 for the 42 months.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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shilohsfoal

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It is not to make Jerusalem desolate - but makes the temple absent from any worship and praise of the One True God, stopping the daily sacrifice in the process.

Jerusalem will not be made desolate because of the occupation of the armies of the beast in Revelation 11:2 for the 42 months.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
You say jerusalem,will not be made desolate because of the armies that compasss it about.
You deny the words of Christ?



Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

Desolation means without inhabitant,

The abomination which causes desolation is placed 42 months after the sacrifice is abolished.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

That be at the END OF THE OCCUPATION
 
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Douggg

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You say jerusalem,will not be made desolate because of the armies that compasss it about.
You deny the words of Christ?



Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

Desolation means without inhabitant,

The abomination which causes desolation is placed 42 months after the sacrifice is abolished.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

That be at the END OF THE OCCUPATION
Luke 21:20 was fulfilled in 70 AD.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Luke 21:20 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Not hardly.

The times of the gentiles occupting jerusalem hasnt even,started yet.

Revelation 11:2 KJV: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

As i said.Jerusalem is made desolate at the end of the forty two months .When the times of the gentiles cease.

The times of these gentiles by my calculations should begin at the end of Trumps first term or beginning of his second.

You need to run to and fro alittle more ans knowledge will increase.
 
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Douggg

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Luke 21:24 began when the Jews were dispersed among the nations following the destruction of the temple and city, in the Jewish rebellion wars against the Romans. And after 2000 years, the Jews returned to the land to reform the nation of Israel in May 14, 1948.

The abomination of desolation is tied to the stopping of the daily sacrifice which is a temple function. It is the temple that becomes desolate of the worship and praise of the one True God.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

It is not talking about making Jerusalem desolate but the temple.

Jesus himself in Zechariah 14 returns to the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half making a valley of escape for them surrounded in Jerusalem as hostages. So Jerusalem cannot be desolate.

It will be occupied by the armies of the beast the at the time, but not desolate, and there will be Jews there.
 
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claninja

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I disagree, as your conclusion doesn't logically flow well.

there is a gap to the end times from Daniel 11:35 to the willful king in Daniel 11:36,

This is absolutely possible, as there are no time constraints on the whole of Daniel 11-12. There are 2 time constraints mentioned in Daniel 12. "time, times, and half a time" for the great tribulation and resurrection of just and unjust, AND 1290/1335 days from the time the "daily" is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up to some unknown event.

The Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 is the image of the beast made in Revelation 13. The 1290 days and 1335 days have to be placed exactly in the right place on the 7 year timeline for everything to work out. This is where most people go wrong trying to interpret Daniel 12.

This appears to be a personal interpretation. Revelation 13 does not mention an abomination that causes desolation, nor does it mention 1290/1335 days.

In fact, where, in any of the epistles or revelation or the book of acts, is the term "abomination of desolation" mentioned?
 
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claninja

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Not too hard to see that it was the Roman Army sacking and burning Jerusalem in Judgement on apostate Israel.

I absolutely agree, hence "let the reader understand" is present after the "abomination of desolation".
In other words, while Luke clearly explains the "abomination that causes desolation" as the roman armies surrounding Jerusalem to a gentile audience, Matthew and Mark have "let the reader understand" directed at their Jewish audience.
 
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Douggg

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This is absolutely possible, as there are no time constraints on the whole of Daniel 11-12. There are 2 time constraints mentioned in Daniel 12. "time, times, and half a time" for the great tribulation and resurrection of just and unjust, AND 1290/1335 days from the time the "daily" is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up to some unknown event.
The time, times, half time can be matched up with the time, times, half time in Revelation 12, that Satan has left after he forced down to earth, by Michael and his angels.

In Daniel 12, this is Michael standing up for Daniel's people at that time, in verse 1. It is talking about the time in history when the willful king, in Daniel 11:36, who is claiming to be god is ruling - which would be basically the second half of the 7 years after the person has become the beast.

So that is one timeframe we should be able to agree on - the time, times, half times - where it is placed on the 7 year timeline.

The 7 years itself begin when the Jews think the person is the messiah, which that colossus mistake will backfire, when the guy goes off the deep end.

The 7 years have been in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 all this time as confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, but no prophecy commentator has ever made the connection. They are stuck on the 7 year peace treaty notion - because it says the little horn destroys many by peace.
 
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claninja

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The time, times, half time can be matched up with the time, times, half time in Revelation 12, that Satan has left after he forced down to earth, by Michael and his angels.

I disagree.

In Daniel 12, it is a time, times, and half time for the tribulation, resurrection, and power of holy people being broken.

Daniel 12:1-2,7 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. b When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

However, in revelation 12 Israel is nourished for a time, times, and half a time. Revelation 12 DOES NOT describe the tribulation, resurrection, or even the power of the holy people being broken. Therefore, revelation 12 and Daniel 12 are not about the same event.
Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

I would place the time, times, and half a time of Daniel 12 later, specifically in Revelation 13:
Revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Revelation 13 mentions the tribulation against the holy people for 42 months (time, times, and half a time). Revelation 14 then mentions the resurrection. Revelation 13-14 fit much better for Daniel 12 then revelation 12 does.

The 7 years itself begin when the Jews think the person is the messiah, which that colossus mistake will backfire, when the guy goes off the deep end.

Where is this found in scripture?
 
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tranquil

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Not hardly.

The times of the gentiles occupting jerusalem hasnt even,started yet.

Revelation 11:2 KJV: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

As i said.Jerusalem is made desolate at the end of the forty two months .When the times of the gentiles cease.

The times of these gentiles by my calculations should begin at the end of Trumps first term or beginning of his second.

You need to run to and fro alittle more ans knowledge will increase.

Ezekiel 44:6-9
6 And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations,

7 in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8 And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.

9 “Thus says the Lord God: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary.
The 2 witnesses / 2nd woe testimony is about Israel/ (Christianity?) breaking the covenant by giving over the sanctuary to foreigners/ Gentiles/ 'aliens'.

(seems to be where the covenant with Death & Hades is made - this covenant with Death & Hell would be broken at the end of 1260 days. (Kislev 24, 5782// dusk Nov 27, 2021 to dusk May 10, 2025)

at the end of 1260 days/ dusk May 10, 2025, the beast from the abyss wages war against the 2 witnesses because the covenant with Death has been broken.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Luke 21:24 began when the Jews were dispersed among the nations following the destruction of the temple and city, in the Jewish rebellion wars against the Romans. And after 2000 years, the Jews returned to the land to reform the nation of Israel in May 14, 1948.

The abomination of desolation is tied to the stopping of the daily sacrifice which is a temple function. It is the temple that becomes desolate of the worship and praise of the one True God.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

It is not talking about making Jerusalem desolate but the temple.

Jesus himself in Zechariah 14 returns to the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half making a valley of escape for them surrounded in Jerusalem as hostages. So Jerusalem cannot be desolate.

It will be occupied by the armies of the beast the at the time, but not desolate, and there will be Jews there.

So you believe Jesus is making an escape rout for those going into exile?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into captivity, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

Lol,Dude,they are bbeing kicked out of the kingdom.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out.
 
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Douggg

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However, in revelation 12 Israel is nourished for a time, times, and half a time. Revelation 12 DOES NOT describe the tribulation, resurrection, or even the power of the holy people being broken. Therefore, revelation 12 and Daniel 12 are not about the same event.
Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
To get to the time times half time in Revelation 12:14 - it is necessary to see what precedes it.

The Jews flee to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6 near the end of the two witnesses' testimony. Because the AoD has been placed in the temple. The Jews' power is actually broken slightly before then because the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin - and starts persecuting the Jews for rejecting his claim.

After the two witnesses are killed, and ascend - the 7th trumpet sounds, that in the days of the 7th trumpet the mystery of God is finished - which refers to the Kingdom of God being brought to this earth, which requires that Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the great be dismantled and Satan made a terror no more.

Daniel 12:1-2 is describing the end time in history.

In Revelation 11:15-18 is talking about the same time as Daniel 12:1-2.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That's what you are reading about in Daniel 12, and the resurrection in that chapter.
_______________________________________________________________

Both Daniel 12:2 and Revelation 11:18, the judgment of the dead, the righteous and unrighteous - is in the historic sense of this present world. Which this present world ends at the end of the thousand year reign. But before then, there is the resurrection/rapture. And the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints.

In Daniel 12:2, it is condensed information, as is all of Daniel 12. Daniel 12 is not stand alone.
__________________________________________________________________
When the 7th trump sounds, that is the go signal for Michael and his angels to force Satan down to earth. At that time, Israel the woman will have already fled into the wilderness as the two witnesses had battled the beast, as the Jews flee.

The time times half times in Daniel 12:7 is tied to Michael's actions. Which Michael's actions are in Revelation 12:7-9. Which take place when the 7th trumpet sounds in Revelation 11:15-18, to take the kingdoms of this world to become the Kingdoms of God and his Christ.

In second half of the seven years:

1. the 3 1/2 days, then the two witnesses leave this world.
2. the times times half times - Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14
3. the 42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5 - the armies of the beast occupy Jerusalem after the two witnesses are gone, as the beast reigns unimpeded by the two witnesses who have left this world.

There is just a slight difference in time between the 42 months and the time times half times - the reason being is because some earth time passes (we aren't told how much) as the war in heaven takes place. Which in days, makes the time times half times just a little bit less than the 42 months.

1260 days + 3.5 days leaves 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 months)
1260 days + 3.5 days + 7th trumpet signaling the war in heaven + earth time passing... leaves the time, times, half time.

The 42 months and the time times half time - are essentially the same time period of the second half of the seven years. But not exact equals in terms of days.

But what the time times half time designation does - it confirms that Michael standing up in Daniel 12:1 is talking about Michael and his angels' war against Satan and his angels in Revelation 12:7-9.
 
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