dqhall

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Given the actual threat of a socialist government in the UK that is truly Marxist in its instincts and a growing resentment across Western society to rich people I thought I should ask the question.

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

The point about Capitalism was that the concentration of wealth in the hands of various rich people is meant to encourage risks to be made for innovation. So Elon Musk is the only one really pushing for a Mars trip right now and the technological development required for that. Gates and Buffet are busy sorting out global tropical diseases. But there are increasing signs that Musk can be really idiotic and may yet throw away his freedom and ability to push the Mars vision cause of some silly court case. Also increasingly in big companies we see a stifling political correctness that seeks to eliminate extreme risks to a companies reputation in the market place, an unwillingness to invest in risky schemes and a massive and unearned inequality of pay.

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries


Rev 6:6
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The book of Amos seems to cite the social injustice that characterised latter day Israel (the Northern Kingdom) as a reason for her fall.

Reasons cited for the failure of capitalism as a system:

1) Failure to fund public services without a massive proliferation of costs e.g. the American health service.
2) Massive entrenched inequality accompanied by growing social immobility. Such that if you are born poor you die poor and if you are born rich your children will also most likely be rich.
3) A focus on luxuries at the expense of basics in many case leading to a growth of absolute poverty in poorer nations and shortages of basic necessities.
4) Failure to back meaningful risks associated with human expansion e.g. solar system wide space flight , research for the common good rather than profit e.g. expensive drugs for the rich but not cheap cures that work for all.
5) Social instability and disintegration caused by rising inequality. Leftist violence across Europe e.g. the recent G20 catastrophe in Hamburg is indicative of the rising sense of resentment against the entitled few.

Do you agree that the above indicates that capitalism does not work? If so what is the alternative? Which systems work best dealing with the challenges of capitalism?
Elon Musk took unacceptable risks. Tesla has been losing millions of dollars as his business plan is faulty. He was smoking dope and tweeting fraudulent information about his company. The SEC is investigating him. If he ever gets to Mars, he might find it does not have a good business climate either. People would rather book trips to Hawaii where there are year round pleasant temperatures.

People who bought stocks during the IPO of Microsoft and held for decades did very well. That is capitalism. Microsoft pays taxes and does well. High tech flourishes in high tax California and Massachusetts.

Not many retirees are complaining about social security and medicare, except the cost of living increases do not always keep up with prices. These programs are socialist. People complain about their property taxes, then they complain the government is not fixing potholes in the road. A few people moved to South America to avoid high American taxes, not many.

Venezuela is too Marxist and starving. They did not believe in a free market system. The government wanted to control the economy. They enacted price controls, import tariffs and export tariffs.
 
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joshua 1 9

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California has 23% of people below the poverty line. The economy works very well for the richest people although your debt continues to rise, you run a trade deficit and your health care system is vastly more expensive without even being comprehensive. Interestingly you have a net out migration figure for 20 years now, the opposite of Germany. People obviously are finding opportunity elsewhere.

BUt I think I rest my case on Los Angeles public transport and traffic issues. There is nothing so bad in Germany.
The principle from my high school was from Germany, he taught the Ancient History Class. Also the director was from Germany. So I got more of a classic education then what they have in public high schools here.

Here in America they are memorizing the capital of the states and the names of all the presidents. While in Europe they are reading The Odyssey and Greek Mythology. This was an issue during the last election. They talked about common core and if our students can keep up with the students from other countries.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I have two severely disabled adult children. 24yo. daughter has a mental age of 18 mos. 31yo. son, that of an 8yo. They have no sense of causation and, if required to work, would starve to death (and have no understanding why).
If you want to turn to man for answers and solutions you are going to be disappointed. Only God has the answers and only God has the solutions. It takes time, it could take a life time of seeking God and praying for healing and asking Him to supply all our needs. In fact He says He will provide above and beyond all we could ever think or ask for. He wrote the book of our life before we were even born. He has all the plans for us and we need to seek after God to accomplish His purpose in our lives. He tells us that His Grace is sufficient for us. “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2Cor12:9

The Bible says we can have the Mind of Christ. We are transformed by the renewing our our mind. Man is limited in what he can do. The doctors are limited, the government is limited. God does not have limits. It is slow, gradual and takes time, a life time. But still God has all the plans and He always provides a way for us to go. Then we have a testimony. We can say the doctors told me this, but God had a different plan for me.

We have to take life one day at a time. Jesus taught us to ask for our daily bread. Our daily healing and our daily provision. Today is sufficient onto itself and then tomorrow we can deal with the issues that day presents. Every day God has our supply and our provision for us for that day. If he can provide for the sparrow, He can provide for us.

In the end we can say we endured. We ran our race and lived the life that God called us to live. We lived a life of victory as an overcomer.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Tesla has been losing millions of dollars as his business plan is faulty.
People are brilliant and stupid all rolled up into one. If we put brilliant on one side and stupid on the other we can only hope they balance themselves out. This is why we need to put on the mind of Christ and be transformed by the renewing of our mind.
 
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If you want to turn to man for answers and solutions you are going to be disappointed. Only God has the answers and only God has the solutions.
True enough, but it shouldn't stop us from making whatever improvements we can in the meantime. (Political malleability is supposed to be a benefit of the democratic process, after all.)

In some ways, the Third Reich was a very efficient form of government for the majority of its constituents. Heaven help you, though, if you weren't a member of that majority.

You can expect it to be a hard sell, if you expect the disabled community to just lay down and die for some "greater good" of society. Take one for the team...?

Having been employed (and paid taxes), I do not want to be overly taxed either. So, this economic reality should seek some kind of happy medium; a very minimalist form of socialism.
 
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joshua 1 9

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True enough, but it shouldn't stop us from making whatever improvements we can in the meantime. (Political malleability is supposed to be a benefit of the democratic process, after all.)

In some ways, the Third Reich was a very efficient form of government for the majority of its constituents. Heaven help you, though, if you weren't a member of that majority.

You can expect it to be a hard sell, if you expect the disabled community to just lay down and die for some "greater good" of society. Take one for the team...?

Having been employed (and paid taxes), I do not want to be overly taxed either. So, this economic reality should seek some kind of happy medium; a very minimalist form of socialism.
I miss the WW2 Vets a lot. They were really good guys. The millennial's never knew them, so they feel no need or desire to honor them.
 
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Sabertooth

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I miss the WW2 Vets a lot. They were really good guys. The millennial's never knew them, so they feel no need or desire to honor them.
How does that relate to my previous post...?
full
 
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...your beloved Third Reich.
full
Why would you assume that I have sympathy for the Third Reich? They euthanized autistics like me and my children.

They were an extreme example of a society that devalued its own disabled and handicapped members (in the name of some "greater good"). Darwinian capitalism proposes the same "solution" (just by attrition).

(To say that you misread my previous posts would be an understatement.
full
)
 
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Anglophone countries, ..., have a long history of religious demonization of the poor in the name of their Theology of Glory.
Ain't that the truth.
 
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mindlight

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Elon Musk took unacceptable risks. Tesla has been losing millions of dollars as his business plan is faulty. He was smoking dope and tweeting fraudulent information about his company. The SEC is investigating him. If he ever gets to Mars, he might find it does not have a good business climate either. People would rather book trips to Hawaii where there are year round pleasant temperatures.

Elon Musk epitomises the best and worst of capitalism in my view. On the one hand he has created something literally out of this world with SpaceX. He is the major driver for a Mars trip in our generation. But on the other hand he is a loose cannon on Twitter, smoking dope and acting like a child. Hopefully his dismissal as chairman of TESLA will be a wake up call and will help him refocus on getting the BFR up and running.

People who bought stocks during the IPO of Microsoft and held for decades did very well. That is capitalism. Microsoft pays taxes and does well. High tech flourishes in high tax California and Massachusetts.

Capitalism is the best at creating wealth. But its interaction with public services leaves much to be desired as the costs of the American health services and failures of basic infrastructure provision indicate.

Not many retirees are complaining about social security and medicare, except the cost of living increases do not always keep up with prices. These programs are socialist. People complain about their property taxes, then they complain the government is not fixing potholes in the road. A few people moved to South America to avoid high American taxes, not many.

Venezuela is too Marxist and starving. They did not believe in a free market system. The government wanted to control the economy. They enacted price controls, import tariffs and export tariffs.

Getting the balance right is crucial.
 
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mindlight said in post #1:

Given the level of entrenched inequality in Western society, the decreasing levels of social mobility, the increasingly risk averse attitude of shareholders to positive innovations that might cost investment capital and risk existing portfolios the question needs to be asked:

Is Capitalism working?

It's like what Churchill said about democracy: it's the worst form of government, except for the alternatives.

Capitalism is the worst form of economics, except for the alternatives.

Also, entrenched inequality is ultimately based on the rules regarding debt under capitalism.

But the Bible has the answer.

For the Jubilee of Leviticus 25:10 allows all people every fifty years to be set at liberty from being hired servants (Leviticus 25:40), such as wage slaves today; and to return free from all debts to their own plots of land, which they can then work in support of themselves and their families.

This is a wonderful idea, and should be put into practice today. For a future, world economic collapse (similar to, but much worse than, 2008's Great Recession) will be brought about by the continued, unsustainable debt loads of the world's (especially China's) corporate and central banks (in the form of bad loans), and by the unsustainable debt loads of the world's governments, corporations, and individuals. God knew that eternal, recycling debts (that is, borrowing or printing new money to pay off old debts) can only result, in the long term, in widespread economic ruin, due to eventual huge defaults or rampant inflation. It is eternal debt, and the subsequent loss of land ownership by poor and middle class people, which cannot help but eventually result in wage slavery and inescapable poverty for 99% of the world's population. God knew this, and it cannot last.

The Jubilee idea prevents what we are seeing today: The unbelievable concentration of wealth and land ownership by only a relatively few people compared with the population of the planet. For example, Oxfam recently found that eight of the richest people in the world own more wealth than the 3.6 billion poorest people in the world. And even in the U.S., it is said that the top one-tenth of one percent of the population owns more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population. That is, in the U.S., one person out of 1,000 owns more wealth than even the combined wealth of 900 people out of 1,000. How can this be good? And how can it be rectified without resorting to the failed policies of socialism, which eventually render countries completely destitute, like what happened to poor Venezuela, which used to be prosperous due to its vast oil resources.

Perhaps a good start to rectify the current, extreme situation globally (and in the U.S.), would be to abolish all taxes such as payroll, sales, and income taxes, which hurt the poor and the middle class the most; and replace all taxes with a global wealth tax of only 10% yearly on people with more than a million dollars in wealth. This wealth tax will have to be global, or else the wealthy will simply move their wealth to tax havens with no wealth tax; just as even today, wealthy people can hide their wealth in offshore shell companies, and in bogus "trusts", such as in the Cook Islands. The money from the global wealth tax can then be distributed to the world's poor in the form of sufficient food, clothing, housing, water supplies, farm animals (compare Heifer International), crop seeds, farm tools, fruit trees, and land for everyone to be able to support himself and his family by his own work on his own land (Micah 4:4).

So remember the wealth tax. (And that it has to be global.)
 
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mindlight said in post #1:

The bible Rev 18:2-3 is not that flattering about the harlot of Babylon (which many often associate with capitalism)

Whereas the corrupt aspects of capitalism (as of all other man-made economic systems) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of capitalism. For capitalism just by itself does not reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is capitalism the only system under which people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has capitalism killed all of the Christian martyrs who have ever been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has capitalism just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has capitalism been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The ten kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the future, seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). The ten kings of the future Antichrist's empire could destroy the cities of the nations under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all of the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all of our great cities, all of our magnificent systems. Let us break all of our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat all of the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth (Revelation 21:1), as in a new atmosphere (first heaven) and surface for the earth. And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with Christians on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
 
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timewerx said in post #4:

Both Capitalist and Socialist systems have positive aspects. But if corrupt men are running everything, neither will work.

The problem is that all men are corrupt:

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin . . .

And all men are ultimately feckless:

Psalms 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Here the original Hebrew word (H1892) translated as "vanity" can mean "transitory" (Strong's), while the original Hebrew word (H3577) translated as "a lie" can mean just that (Proverbs 6:19).

We can easily see "men of low degree" (Psalms 62:9), such as homeless people, as insignificant. But we too easily can see "men of high degree" (Psalms 62:9) as actually significant, in the sense of thinking that they actually know what they are doing and can truly change things for the better. But they are just as insignificant as the homeless people whom they drive by in their black SUVs. For compared with God, even all humans together are "less than nothing" (Isaiah 40:17, Isaiah 2:22). And they are all ultimately basket cases who end up accomplishing nothing lasting. That is why our current governments prove to be, in the end, so feckless and pathetic: They are made up entirely of mere humans, and all of them sinners to boot (Romans 3:9). So we must await the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is not only a completely sinless human (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but also YHWH God Himself (John 1:1,14, Ezekiel 34:31).

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely . . .

20 ¶He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 
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mindlight

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The problem is that all men are corrupt:

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin . . .

And all men are ultimately feckless:

Psalms 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Here the original Hebrew word (H1892) translated as "vanity" can mean "transitory" (Strong's), while the original Hebrew word (H3577) translated as "a lie" can mean just that (Proverbs 6:19).

We can easily see "men of low degree" (Psalms 62:9), such as homeless people, as insignificant. But we too easily can see "men of high degree" (Psalms 62:9) as actually significant, in the sense of thinking that they actually know what they are doing and can truly change things for the better. But they are just as insignificant as the homeless people whom they drive by in their black SUVs. For compared with God, even all humans together are "less than nothing" (Isaiah 40:17, Isaiah 2:22). And they are all ultimately basket cases who end up accomplishing nothing lasting. That is why our current governments prove to be, in the end, so feckless and pathetic: They are made up entirely of mere humans, and all of them sinners to boot (Romans 3:9). So we must await the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is not only a completely sinless human (Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but also YHWH God Himself (John 1:1,14, Ezekiel 34:31).

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely . . .

20 ¶He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I agree that all men are like dust compared to God and there is no difference between rich and poor in that regard. But God also gave us freewill and our choices matter and especially if blessed by the grace he gives. So it remains true that men of vision can change the world for good or ill.
 
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joshua 1 9

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So it remains true that men of vision can change the world for good or ill.
Actually man can not do much of anything. Other then to be washed and cleansed to be found worthy to be a vessel for the word of God to work in and though us. We can plant the seeds and hope they sprout, take root and grow. Then perhaps someday they will produce an abundant harvest. Of course the seed is in the fruit. So if we do not produce fruit we have no seeds: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. If the tree or the limb does not produce fruit it is cut down and thrown into the fire.
 
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Capitalism is the worst form of economics, except for the alternatives.
I think that it IS the best form, but it isn't complete enough, by itself.

For those who actually cannot work, a society has two choices,
  1. Include minimal socialism, like God did (in Leviticus' field gleaning laws), or
  2. Marginalize and/or euthanize them, as the Nazis did; calling them "useless eaters."
We don't get to pretend that they don't exist, as in the false dichotomy of laziness vs. diligence.
 
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The social democratic model of capitalism seem to be working well, meaning it's a win-win for people and business alike.

Social democracies spend significantly less on their universal and affordable health services yet get much better outcomes. Rinse and repeat across all public services: social security, education, defence and security. Social democracies also have least socio-economic inequality and poverty and higher social mobility. Social democracies rank as the world's most stable states, safest, happiest, prosperous, least corrupt, most socially inclusive countries with strongest democracies, most freedom, best governance and judical systems and most human wellbeing and most human capital, just to name a few indexes where social democractic capitalism excels.

So, no. Capitalism has not failed. It's just thar some forms of capitalism have always been failures as far as human wellbeing goes. In these, democracy is rigged so that money is power, greed drives the system, and the government is of the 1%, by the 1%, and for the 1%.
 
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