WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

Albion · Sep 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Unless you were an eyewitness you are doing exactly that relying on the accounts trust from others. You only know of Pearl Harbor second or third hand.

That's not exactly correct. For anything that happened in the past, we judge by evidence other than our own witnessing. Seldom, however, does that amount to simply believing someone's claim that an event happened and nothing more about it than that.

That said, it is essential to know the difference between "Holy Tradition" and "traditions" if the issue we have been discussing is to be understood.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Steve, no worries let's have a look at the scriptures in detail and see if your statement above has any truth in it.

.............

ROMANS 7:7,
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law [What law are we talking about?]: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

NOTE: What law are we talking about? The scripture says I had not known what sin is except by the law. Paul then gives the example of lust and coveting. What law says we should not Covet? EXODUS 20:17. Yep you guessed it the Ten Commandments. So yep sorry Steve, God's WORD disagrees with you.

.............

ROMANS 13:8,
[8] Owe no man anything, but to love one another: FOR HE THAT LOVES HAS FULFILLED THE LAW [Once again what law are we talking about?]. [9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOYU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

NOTE: What law are we talking about? The scripture says that he that LOVE fulfills or does the law then gives more examples of the law that is being discussed and says YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOYU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET. So where are these laws found? *EXODUS 20:13-17 Yep you guessed it the Ten Commandments. So yep sorry Steve, God's WORD disagrees with you.

.............

JAMES 2:8-11
[8], If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well:
[9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if you commit NO ADULTERY, yet if you KILL, you are become a transgressor of the law.

NOTE: The scripture says that he that if we sin we break God's law. What law are we talking about? V11 goes on to give examples of what law is being discussed here by talking about committing Adultery and killing. Where are these laws found? *EXODUS 20:13-14. Yep you guessed it the Ten Commandments. So yep sorry Steve, God's WORD disagrees with you.

.............

CONCLUSION: Sorry Steve God's Word disagrees with you. Happy to go through all of them if your interested just let me know?

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the whole law. Granted, the examples given are from the TCs, but the subject is the whole law. The law we are not under. We are under grace instead.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Dan the deacon · Sep 29, 2018

Albion said:
That's not exactly correct. For anything that happened in the past, we judge by evidence other than our own witnessing. Seldom, however, does that amount to simply believing someone's claim that an event happened and nothing more about it than that.

That said, it is essential to know the difference between "Holy Tradition" and "traditions" if the issue we have been discussing is to be understood.

HOLY tradition is every bit as holy and true as written scripture. My Church has both and not to mention a Bible having more books than the evangelical.
So many seem to believe God put the words on scripture. Incorrect. He inspired men to write. Generally a letter to a certain Church in a certain place. St. Paul even tells is when he is giving his own opinion rather than being inspired of God.
If the Bible is one's only means of understanding God we are doomed. Reading your Bible is not communing with God. It is reading accounts of Him.
Funny how a group will accept the Bible (or at least a part of it) that was given to us by the early Church and quote it often while speaking against the very Church that decided what books to include in it. Such makes no seance at all. Most evangelicals do not even understand that the KJV has more books than the version they use.

Albion · Sep 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
HOLY tradition is every bit as holy and true as written scripture.

That's the theory, but for me the legends, customs, religious opinions, folklore, and etc. of men (which is the basis of Holy Tradition, so-called) is not the equal of the word of God.

Your church does believe that the Bible IS divinely inspired, does it not?

So that is my view of the matter, and we can certainly disagree. I would make one more point in reply, though, which is that it is indeed a theory since Holy Tradition posits that there is a continuous stream, a continuity, of whatever belief is being dogmatized on the basis of something other than Scripture. However, that never turns out to be the case.

What the church chooses to pluck out from history is equally eligible for being made into doctrine and then justified by labelling it true by Holy Tradition. There are many examples.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 29, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
The Lord’s Day is the day we celebrate the resurrection. Paul decided it was a good idea to receive communion on that day in remembrance of Jesus. It was not designated to celebrate the last supper otherwise it would’ve been held on Thursday.

Erik Nelson said:
Friday Saturday Sunday.
Represent
crucifixion Hades resurrection, respectively.

Christ is Lord of the Sabbath and which of those days best represents the gospel GOOD news?

My Passion Timeline is a little different. It is based upon three days and three nights actually being a 72 hour period (i.e. Three - 24 hour days), and not with the days being metaphorical or different. Jesus said there are 12 hours in a day (John 11:9), and that means that the night is the equal amount of time (i.e. a full day = 24 hours). So just doing the math alone, a Wednesday 3:00PM crucifixion with a Saturday 3:00PM resurrection is the only thing that works. On Sunday the next morning, the angel declared to Mary and the others that He is risen. When Jesus showed up to Mary he told her not to touch Him because He needed to ascend to the Father (i.e. to complete His mission in our plan of Redemption in entering the Holy Temple by His blood and becoming our Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man).

My New Chronology on the Passion Week

Side Note:

Well, I also offer some explanations to things in Scripture that people think are contradictions in the Bible, but they are not. In light of God's Word, they are explained and they make perfect sense. There are two different sixth hours that appears to contradict each other. But I was able to resolve it using Scripture and not an extra biblical excuse that some have latched onto.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Hello Steve, nice to see you. Some comments for your consideration below.

Saint Steven said:
The Ten Commandments are a subset of the whole law. Granted, the examples given are from the TCs, but the subject is the whole law.

Thanks for being honest here. I am happy we can agree that the scriptures quoted earlier are referring to God's 10 commandments in the NEW TESTAMENT. The subject here however in this thread is who should we follow; the traditions and teachings of men that break the commandments of God or the Word of God.

Also, God's 10 commandments are not a subset of the law they are the standard and KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS as shown earlier *ROMANS 7:7 ROMANS 3:20; JAMES 2:8-11; PSALMS 119:172.

It is the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 for remission of sins that are the subset laws. These are the ones that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT [no more animal sacrifices and Jesus ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary].

Saint Steven said:
The law we are not under. We are under grace instead.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

No one is "UNDER THER LAW" Unless they stand guilty before God of KNOWINGLY breaking it [SIN] *ROMANS 3:19-20. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Grace however is given to us so that we can walk in God's SPIRIT and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and to be obedient to the WORD of GOD. *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 16:26; ROMANS 3:31. ROMANS 8:1-4.

Hope this helps.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
HOLY tradition is every bit as holy and true as written scripture. My Church has both and not to mention a Bible having more books than the evangelical.
So many seem to believe God put the words on scripture. Incorrect. He inspired men to write. Generally a letter to a certain Church in a certain place. St. Paul even tells is when he is giving his own opinion rather than being inspired of God.
If the Bible is one's only means of understanding God we are doomed. Reading your Bible is not communing with God. It is reading accounts of Him.
Funny how a group will accept the Bible (or at least a part of it) that was given to us by the early Church and quote it often while speaking against the very Church that decided what books to include in it. Such makes no seance at all. Most evangelicals do not even understand that the KJV has more books than the version they use.

Thanks for your post. I agree, many Protestants do not know where the Bible came from. The Roman Catholic Church did a lot of the leg work to formalize/standardize doctrines, creeds and canonize our Bible. Ironically, Sola Scriptura is not even possible without the Bible we have been provided with. We should be thankful for what we have and from whom it came.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

Albion said:
That's the theory, but for me the legends, customs, religious opinions, folklore, and etc. of men (which is the basis of Holy Tradition, so-called) is not the equal of the word of God.

Your church does believe that the Bible IS divinely inspired, does it not?

So that is my view of the matter, and we can certainly disagree. I would make one more point in reply, though, which is that it is indeed a theory since Holy Tradition posits that there is a continuous stream, a continuity, of whatever belief is being dogmatized on the basis of something other than Scripture. However, that never turns out to be the case.

What the church chooses to pluck out from history is equally eligible for being made into doctrine and then justified by labelling it true by Holy Tradition. There are many examples.

I agree. There is a reason why the canonized scriptures were canonized while others didn't make the cut. I think most Christians think that the uncanonized works were written later. That they were post-new testament. Not so.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Steve, nice to see you. Some comments for your consideration below.

Thanks for being honest here. I am happy we can agree that the scriptures quoted earlier are referring to God's 10 commandments in the NEW TESTAMENT. The subject here however in this thread is who should we follow; the traditions and teachings of men that break the commandments of God or the Word of God.

Also, God's 10 commandments are not a subset of the law they are the standard and KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS as shown earlier *ROMANS 7:7 ROMANS 3:20; JAMES 2:8-11; PSALMS 119:172.

It is the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 for remission of sins that are the subset laws. These are the ones that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT [no more animal sacrifices and Jesus ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary].

No one is "UNDER THER LAW" Unless they stand guilty before God of KNOWINGLY breaking it [SIN] *ROMANS 3:19-20. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Grace however is given to us so that we can walk in God's SPIRIT and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and to be obedient to the WORD of GOD. *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 16:26; ROMANS 3:31. ROMANS 8:1-4.

Hope this helps.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Saint Steven said:
THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Steve, are you changing your mind now?

Saint Steven said: ↑ Granted, the examples given are from the TCs, but the subject is the whole law.

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Steve, are you changing your mind now?

No. I'm correcting you.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Saint Steven said:
No. I'm correcting you.

So you do not believe now that the scriptures posted earlier were referring to the 10 commandments?

Saint Steven · Sep 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
So you do not believe now that the scriptures posted earlier were referring to the 10 commandments?

I have always believed that they were in reference to the whole law. The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Which includes the Ten Commandments.

How can you know what the new covenant is if you don't know the old one?

Deuteronomy 5:1-4
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

Dan the deacon · Sep 29, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I have always believed that they were in reference to the whole law. The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Which includes the Ten Commandments.

How can you know what the new covenant is if you don't know the old one?

Deuteronomy 5:1-4
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

What many.do not understand is that the law was written to.those of ancient Israel only. It was never meant for non Jewish believers.
The New Covenant was written for the world. For the Jew first and also.the world.

Dan the deacon · Sep 29, 2018

Albion said:
That's the theory, but for me the legends, customs, religious opinions, folklore, and etc. of men (which is the basis of Holy Tradition, so-called) is not the equal of the word of God.

Your church does believe that the Bible IS divinely inspired, does it not?

So that is my view of the matter, and we can certainly disagree. I would make one more point in reply, though, which is that it is indeed a theory since Holy Tradition posits that there is a continuous stream, a continuity, of whatever belief is being dogmatized on the basis of something other than Scripture. However, that never turns out to be the case.

What the church chooses to pluck out from history is equally eligible for being made into doctrine and then justified by labelling it true by Holy Tradition. There are many examples.

So are you stating your Church has no extra biblical beliefs? If so I'd like to.know the name of such a church. Even evangelicals hold extra biblical beliefs they hold as holy.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I have always believed that they were in reference to the whole law. The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Which includes the Ten Commandments.

How can you know what the new covenant is if you don't know the old one?

Deuteronomy 5:1-4
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

Jeremiah 31:31-32
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

The trouble is the scriptures that I posted to you earlier were referring specifically to the 10 commandments and not the shadow laws of the Mosaic book of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is? If you have lost your key how can you open the door to the NEW *JOHN 10:9. Can you break God's Commandments and fulfill the law of LOVE? I do not think so *ROMANS 13:8-10.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
What many.do not understand is that the law was written to.those of ancient Israel only. It was never meant for non Jewish believers.The New Covenant was written for the world. For the Jew first and also.the world.

God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

HEBREWS 8:10-12
[10], FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, said the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-26

Hope this is helpful

Dan the deacon · Sep 29, 2018

Can you break God's Commandments and fulfill the law of LOVE? I do not think so *ROMANS 13:8-10.[/QUOTE said:
I think so. That is why Christ died for us. Bevause we cannot keep.God's law, He kept it for us.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 29, 2018

Not really Dan. The Good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that salvation is from sin not to continue in sin. We are indeed all sinners but we have a Saviour who has the power to save us from sin if we believe his WORD *1 JOHN 5:4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

Those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and do not walk by faith in his WORD and Spirit. *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; REVELATION 14:12. GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 3:9

Erik Nelson · Sep 30, 2018

John 17:20-21

WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

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