We are not saved by works?
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GingerBeer
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Maybe you don't know until the Lord says either "well done you good and faithful servant" or "depart from me you worker of iniquity" but you will know eventually. If you want absolute certainty here and now before you have finished your life and are ready to face your maker then maybe you're looking for something that ought not be looked for. No human being knows the future (Christ alone excepted) so why not be satisfied with that and live your life as a stranger and pilgrim here on Earth looking for the city that has foundations whose builder and maker is God? If you live like that then you'll have nothing to fear. Faithfulness drivers out fear.
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To me it sounds like insecurity, especially in times when we fail, mess up etc. Then where can we find comfort?
It's not that I don't think faithfulness matters, but I believe we are saved by faith that produces works, and aren't saved by faith that is without works. So I believe we are saved by faith, but faith lacking works is not counted as faith.
Reasoning: If my boss gives me 10 millions I'm supposed to do something with it. If I have done nothing with the 10 millions why would he make me partner of his company, when I have shown I can't handle money? Still it's the boss's call if I'm to be partner, depending on his kindness, not my efforts. No matter how much effort I put into it, it will never be enough. It's always his call, his mercy, so I trust in him, not my effort.
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GingerBeer
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We find security in forgiveness. When we fail and fall into sins then repent and ask God to forgive. He promises to forgive those who ask. Only be sure that you forgive those who do you wrong because the measure you use for others is the measure you set as an example by which you yourself will be measured. But security is not found in empty theories. It is found in faithfulness and the mercy of God.
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Silly Uncle Wayne
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There is no contradiction. People of Faith will do works as a result of their faith (e.g. James). People who do works are good people, but they won't get to Heaven... because their acts, though good are for the purpose of self-fulfilment, or trying to please God not as a result or outpouring of their faith in God.
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I'm not sure about this. When I lost faith and hope, all I could cling to was that I was forgiven no matter what. I had nothing good in myself to present to God. If someone had told me then that I needed to be faithful I would just have given up, because I didn't have it in me. But God showed mercy upon me, trusting in Him alone, that I was forgiven and saved because of His cross.
If we don't have all our trust in His mercy through the cross I believe we are on dangerous grounds. If we rely just one tad on our faithfulness I believe we are mistaken. It's all about His mercy.
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Are we saved by God’s grace or by works?
Paul suggests in Ephesians 2 that we are not saved by works and yet James says we are saved by works in James 2.
Well, when reading Ephesians 2, it is best understood that it is talking against "Law Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's saving grace). Ephesians 2 seems to focus primarily on "Initial Salvation" (See Ephesians 2:1) (Ephesians 2:4-5) (Ephesians 2:8) (Ephesians 3:17), or in how we are "Ultimately Saved" and it is not talking about "Continued Salvation" or "Sanctification" (after we are saved by God's grace). Ephesians 2:8 says grace is a gift of God. Gifts are received (Which is a one time event); And Paul says we used to be sinners as a part of our old way of life (Ephesians 2:2-3). So Paul here is not teaching a "Sin and still be saved gospel" (as many try to wrongfully teach these days).
For Paul is not against holiness and or in being blameless, for he says,
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Ephesians 1:4)
When Paul condemned the words "the Law" or the word "works" in relation to salvation, Paul was referring to:
(a) Salvation by keeping the whole of the Old Law, or by keeping all "613 Laws of Moses" (Contractually speaking: Kind of like how a contract on a house can be rewritten whereby the old contract is no more and yet the new contract is put in it's place), and, or:
(b) "Law Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace).
(b) "Law Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace).
For Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." For there were certain Jews who sought to deceive certain Christians into thinking that they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. How do we know this? Well, at the Jerusalem counsel in Acts of the Apostles 15, this is clearly described. Behold, the verses:
- Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
Paul also writes about how circumcision is not for salvation:
- Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
- Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
- Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
- Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.” ...................................................................
- 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
- Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
- Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
- Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
James says this to Paul shortly before he is about to go to a Jewish temple:
“And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.” (Acts of the Apostles 21:21).
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The Law has changed:
God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.
In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?
Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):
7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).
”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).
20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).
“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).
"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).
9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).
16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).
27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).
50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).
8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).
”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).
20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).
“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).
"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).
9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).
16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).
27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).
50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).
8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).
The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).
So it appears things have changed.
This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).
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After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
(Here are a List of Verses):
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).
"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).
”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).
”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
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An interesting way to look at it. But if that's the case why didn't Paul say works of the law instead of works?
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GingerBeer
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If you asked for God's forgiveness then you had it. The promise is "ask and you shall receive". If you wanted to give God something to make him love you then you were mistaken in your thinking. God loved the world before anybody loved him. He died for his people as proof of his love. What more do you need? The scriptures say:
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
The call to repent and believe the gospel is a call to rely on God's demonstrated love and mercy rather than on obedience to the Law given through Moses.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
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So if an individual is say in the desert alone , but accepts Christ as Saviour by faith then gets bit by a poisonous snake and dies before he or she gets baptized are they saved?
I already know the answer , but would like to read how you respond.
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HTacianas
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The answer to your question is "likely not".
But what you are doing is looking for a narrow exception to disprove a rule. That there may exist some narrow exception certainly does not mean there are no rules.
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I'm not looking for anything in regards to what you are suggesting.
And, there is no rule to disprove here.
It simply does not exist in the manner that baptism is required for salvation, which it isn't.
Baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but not required for salvation.
If baptism is a requirement for salvation , how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?
Seriously??
Requiring ANYTHING in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a WORKS-BASED salvation.
Plain and simple.
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Cherry picking verses out of context will not support your claim.Mar 16:16 - “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Please refute the rest of my previous post.
Also, that verse states he who does not believe will be condemned. Not, he that doesn't believe and is baptized will be condemned.
You and others may find a couple of verses and take them out of context to try and prove your claim, but it will not be in harmony with many other verses that clearly state otherwise.
Faith alone, in Christ alone.
If one were to go with your logic then you would definitely be wrong , because there are many other verses that contradict your claim therefore your logic should be based upon those truths.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
If one teaches such they are in serious error and misrepresent our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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Well, it's not an interesting way to look at it, my friend.
He is correct. It is what the Scriptures are saying. For...
There is a difference between the "works of faith" vs. the "works of the Law":
Works of Faith:
"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).
"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).
"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).
"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).
"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).
Works of the Law
(i.e. the works of the Law of Moses):
"Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:32).
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
(Galatians 2:16).
"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).
"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
(Galatians 2:16).
"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).
"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).
For Paul sometimes uses the word "law" or "works" as in reference to the "Law of Moses" or the "works of the Law of Moses." How do we know? Again, look at the context. Most books written by Paul (Besides Ephesians) shows us that he condemns "Circumcision Salvationism" or in a person trying to be saved through circumcision (Please see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19). If that does not entirely convince you, then please see the three following verses that address the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" at the Jerusalem counsel, - Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.
Also, in Romans and Galatians (the two biggest books on Justification by Faith), you don't have far to look to see that Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and he is not referring to all law in general. In other words, whenever you read a verse about how Paul says we are not under the Law or not saved by works in the book of Romans or Galatians, just read the previous passages and or the previous chapter or two and you will see some kind of context in reference to the Law of Moses. Nowhere does Paul ever say that this is in reference to the commands of Jesus. Paul says if you break the Moral Law (like murder, etc.), you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
I hope these verses were helpful to you.
May God's love shine upon you this evening;
And may you please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
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