WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
But you don’t deny that you accept the tradition of celebrating The Lord’s Day on Sunday? Correct?

First, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the only time the word "tradition" is used in reference to it being a good thing in the Bible. All the other times, we understand that traditions are generally bad things and not good things. The difference is understanding between the two. The good version of "tradition" is a teaching that is taken from the Written Word in some way (along with the working of the Spirit) and a bad tradition is a teaching of man that contradicts Scripture.

Second, I don’t see the Lord's Day (or the Lord's supper - Sunday) as a tradition in the sense the way that people understand that word to mean. For this was not an oral tradition passed down from believer to believer by word of mouth, but it was a commandment from the Lord Himself (the Living Word, i.e. Jesus). Jesus told his disciples to break bread and do this in remembrance of Him and they wrote this event down as a part of written Scripture. The Lord's supper is clearly recorded in the Word of God. It is not written in some other book called, "the traditions of the church" and neither was it passed down to us today by oral means (from believer to believer). The Lord's Day is clearly shown to us in the Holy Bible. That is how we know about it today.

Luke 22:19 says,
"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,..." (Acts of the Apostles 20:7).

1 "Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.
2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t believe we are limited to even Sunday worship. I believe we can worship any day of the week and even better every day of the week. Technically we are to worship in everything we do.

Indeed. I do not disagree in regards to worship. But as for gathering on the Lord's supper to celebrate it: Paul did order the church at Galatia and Corinth to take up collection on the first day of the week. Surely this is not a coincidence that they also broke bread (i.e. the Lord's supper) on the first day of the week, as well. While it is not really stated as a command for all churches exactly to gather on the Lord's day, it is suggestive of that. For I would rather my life be more in line with what the Christians did during that time than not doing what they did (Especially when those things that they are doing are under specific instructions or orders).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

Cis.jd said:
But this isn't about your reasons. The case is, you are arguing the scripture is the only rule, what ever is not in scripture is wrong. You don't have Gen-Rev being stated in scripture, what you deem as scripture was ruled by the Catholic church; it is of apostolic tradition. Yet you accept it but don't want to admit it.

Did you read the other part i gave to you about Martin Luther, the father of your "Sola Scriptura" doctrine? He wanted to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, he had reasons too.

I stated my case. There is nothing more to say, my friend.
I don't know what else to tell you besides what I have already said. If I find out something new, I will share it with you.

So lets agree to disagree.
May God's goodness be upon you today;
And may peace and blessings be upon your family.

Cis.jd · Sep 28, 2018

Jason0047 said:
First, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the only time the word "tradition" is used in reference to it being a good thing in the Bible. All the other times, we understand that traditions are generally bad things and not good things.
Snip

Jason, you are very stubborn. First, 1 Corinthians 11:2 also states it. "Tradition is only said once (well now, you have another verse saying it)", so? The Holy Trinity is not said at all, but you believe it. You sound like a muslim. Regardless of how many times "tradition" has been said, you have been given numerous verses saying not everything was written.

You are still arguing about everything having to be taken from scripture (if that is what you mean Word of God) when you yourself believe in the canon regardless of it not being confirmed in scripture. Your answer to this was "well there are exemptions" to "well tradition is only mentioned once". Your entire belief system being all ruled by Gen until Rev already refutes your own arguments.

Cis.jd · Sep 28, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I stated my case. There is nothing more to say, my friend.
I don't know what else to tell you besides what I have already said. If I find out something new, I will share it with you.

So lets agree to disagree.
May God's goodness be upon you today;
And may peace and blessings be upon your family.

Ok, but just remember You believe in something that is ruled by apostolic tradition not scripture, you just won't admit it.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

Cis.jd said:
But this isn't about your reasons. The case is, you are arguing the scripture is the only rule, what ever is not in scripture is wrong. You don't have Gen-Rev being stated in scripture, what you deem as scripture was ruled by the Catholic church; it is of apostolic tradition. Yet you accept it but don't want to admit it.

Did you read the other part i gave to you about Martin Luther, the father of your "Sola Scriptura" doctrine? He wanted to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, he had reasons too.

First, I think the question needs to be asked: Is tradition the only way we can know which books are in the canon? While canon was compiled by believers, did these believers just do so based on the fact that they were called "The church" and they declared that we must follow them blindly? No. I don't think so. I believe they investigated the matter of which books truly were divine and authentic and truly did fit in God's Word as a cohesive whole (Much like we can test and check these books for ourselves). This is not some church telling us to shut up and just shut our minds off to believe a set of books blindly. The church back then sees the same things we see today that makes the Scriptures divine in origin. For even you accept the Bible. You cannot deny the Bible's beauty and majesty above other books. There is no other book that is like it.

Second, we have to look at things from the poor Christian brother who is seeking to live for Jesus and who is not a scholar or theologian. I say this because James says that God chooses the poor of this world to be rich in faith; And Jesus tells us to beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who tran-scribed the Law or the Holy Scriptures. So this would be your scholar of today. In other words, we are to beware of the scholar and if a poor man on the street accepts Jesus and reads the end of Revelation about how we are not to add any words to the prophecy of this book, he is going to believe that this is talking about the whole of the Bible. His faith at that point is simple. He just reads and believes the Bible and he does not need any words from men to live out His faith by the Word of God. This is actually rightly so because God does not want us to add to anything to His Word through out the course of history. While the vision was given to John (for us to have the book of Revelation), God never intended the Bible to remain as a scattered of collected separate books of Scripture that mankind would have to hunt for before Christ returns. We have God's Word. We have the Holy Bible today. We know it is God's words and many facts back up that fact. God intended the many books to be one book. We have that book now. We can test it in many ways and see if it is true.

Again, you might scream, the church!.... the church!....the church!.... they put the Word of God together! So we should trust just any church that follows the Bible and believe what they say? We should follow their traditions because it was tradition that put the Bible together? But what tradition? Did not God ultimately write Holy Scripture? Would not God have moved men to put together the Bible? So it is not a work of just men's traditions. The Bible is a work of God. The men were just vessels. For looking at the Bible, we can tell that is indeed the Holy Bible by the many evidences that back it up. For if tradition was king, then there would be no Word of God. For God does not work by the traditions of men. There are only the traditions (teachings of God) and God moving men to write His Holy Word (in which we have today). Salvation and holy living can be found only in the Bible. The foundation and focus of our faith is God's Word and not traditions.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

Cis.jd said:
Ok, but just remember You believe in something that is ruled by apostolic tradition not scripture, you just won't admit it.

No. First, I believe God moved imperfect men and holy men to form the Bible we have now. This was not a specific church or group but it was God making this to happen through various men (Both believers and unbelievers). God's Word came into being through out history as a work of God moving behind the scenes to make that happen. Second, Scripture itself and not the men determined which books truly passed the Scripture test. Cross references, the divine nature of the Scriptures, superior morality, science or truths backing it up, etc. In other words, we don't have the wrong books in the Bible. This was because this was (a) a work of God - because men can be fallible (b) Many evidences testify to it's own authenticity.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 28, 2018

Cis.jd said:
Jason, you are very stubborn. First, 1 Corinthians 11:2 also states it. "Tradition is only said once (well now, you have another verse saying it)", so? The Holy Trinity is not said at all, but you believe it. You sound like a muslim. Regardless of how many times "tradition" has been said, you have been given numerous verses saying not everything was written.

You are still arguing about everything having to be taken from scripture (if that is what you mean Word of God) when you yourself believe in the canon regardless of it not being confirmed in scripture. Your answer to this was "well there are exemptions" to "well tradition is only mentioned once". Your entire belief system being all ruled by Gen until Rev already refutes your own arguments.

I believe 1 John 5:7 was in the original manuscripts and I do not believe the Johannine comma lie. I believe the line of manuscripts within the Textus Receptus line leading up to the 1769 KJV. For if Rick (who had no understanding of Christianity whatsoever) was marooned on an island, and he found a Bible and gave his life to Christ, he would not really know about the Trinity if the Bible he had was a Modern Translation Bible vs. say a King James version.

As for your comment that I sound like a Muslim:
Ha, ha, ha. Thank you for the slanderous statement. I must be doing something right then for you to say that. Anyways, for your information, I am very much a Christian and I am not in any way in agreement with that religion.

In any event, good day to you in the Lord;
And may you please be well (even if we disagree).

Dan the deacon · Sep 28, 2018

The OP misses the mark. We are told in the law to.rest on the Sabbath. Why do you suppose we are to worship.on that day.
Is your worship.so slow that you call it rest?
I have read no.command saying we are to worship on any set day.
In my Church we do not have pews. We stand for three hours. How is that rest?
Besides that following the old covenant is contrary to following the new. The old had no salvation. The new does. Follow the old if you wish. It will not lead you to heaven.

Cis.jd · Sep 28, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. First, I believe God moved imperfect men and holy men to form the Bible we have now. This was not a specific church or group but it was God making this to happen through various men (Both believers and unbelievers). God's Word came into being through out history as a work of God moving behind the scenes to make that happen. Second, Scripture itself and not the men determined which books truly passed the Scripture test. Cross references, the divine nature of the Scriptures, superior morality, science or truths backing it up, etc. In other words, we don't have the wrong books in the Bible. This was because this was (a) a work of God - because men can be fallible (b) Many evidences testify to it's own authenticity.

I know we don't have the wrong books of the bible, but the fact is these names are still not in scripture. You can give all these reasons why they are canonized but you still shut down your own stance because you are relying on things to confirm your beliefs.

Jason0047 said:
I believe 1 John 5:7 was in the original manuscripts and I do not believe the Johannine comma lie. I believe the line of manuscripts within the Textus Receptus line leading up to the 1769 KJV. For if Rick (who had no understanding of Christianity whatsoever) was marooned on an island, and he found a Bible and gave his life to Christ, he would not really know about the Trinity if the Bible he had was a Modern Translation Bible vs. say a King James version.

As for your comment that I sound like a Muslim:
Ha, ha, ha. Thank you for the slanderous statement. I must be doing something right then for you to say that. Anyways, for your information, I am very much a Christian and I am not in any way in agreement with that religion.

In any event, good day to you in the Lord;
And may you please be well (even if we disagree).

Ok, so now you believe manuscripts with the Textus Receptus. But again you are shutting down and self-refuting your own arguments. I thought scripture was the only rule as you've been saying, why are you giving all these extra non-scripture reason I don't understand why 1 John 5:7 has anything to do with the canonization argument.

As for the Muslim. You obviously didn't get it. What is the argument Muslims give to Christians about the Trinity? They say it's not mentioned in the Bible. Your argument in tradition is "well there is just 1 verse". This whole paragraph you made shows you didn't even understand this part. Me saying that you are using the Muslim tactic means you are doing something right? So are they right that since the Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, that means it's false?

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Definition 2: of, relating to, or resembling an a**.

See this dictionary source here.

Jason did you read the link you posted? How is it different to the dictionary link I posted? No matter believe as you want to believe.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

Dan the deacon said:
The OP misses the mark. We are told in the law to.rest on the Sabbath. Why do you suppose we are to worship.on that day.
Is your worship.so slow that you call it rest?
I have read no.command saying we are to worship on any set day.
In my Church we do not have pews. We stand for three hours. How is that rest?
Besides that following the old covenant is contrary to following the new. The old had no salvation. The new does. Follow the old if you wish. It will not lead you to heaven.

Hello Dan, nice to see you again.

What is the OLD COVENANT in your view? If you do not know what the Shadow laws are in the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand NEW that they point to? Here are some of the scriptures you were looking for here...

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH?

v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Saturday)

WHEN DOES THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK START?

GENESIS 1:4-5
[4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET and ends the following SUNSET. So God's 4th Commandment Sabbath would start Friday at SUNSET and end Saturday at SUNSET.

ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

EXODUS 16:22-23
[22], And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
[23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

MARK 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

The preparation day is the 6th day of the week. This includes preparing to stop all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week.

IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH?

MATTHEW 12:5-12
[5], Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[6], But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
[7], But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
[8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
[9], And when he was departed from there, he went into their synagogue:
[10], And, behold, there was a man who had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
[11], And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
[12], How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

MARK 2:27, And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Exodus 34:14; 1 KING 9:6; Revelation 14:6-12)

Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work (Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 16:22-23; Matthew 21:13).

.............

There is no purpose in FOLLOWING any of God's LAWs including the SABBATH if it is NOT done through FAITH that works by LOVE because it is ONLY as GOD writes his LAW to LOVE then we can take up our beds to follow him. LOVE is the fulfilling of GOd's LAW in those who BELIEVE *ROMANS 13:8-10.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I think devotion is probably a good description.

Maybe a better question might be, how is LOVE expressed to God and man in the NEW COVENANT?

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Well you were the one making the claim that the early Christian Church did not keep the Sabbath not me. I thought you had some scripture for your belief. So you agree that there is no scripture for your teaching? Thanks for being honest. I believe we are making progress.

PS. Hmm No proof for a Sabbath keeping early Church? Look at the post above yours and the scriptures in it from post # 306 linked click me.

Sorry Steve God's WORD disagrees with you. Please read *ACTS 17:2; ACTS 18:4; ACTS 2:46-47; ACTS 5:42; ACTS 15:20-21

Hope this helps

Don't put words in my mouth and don't brush me off.

Where does either Christ or the Apostle Paul tell believers to observe the Sabbath?

You have failed to prove that the Christian church was a Sabbath-keeping church. You have provided nothing that shows believers gathering for worship on the Sabbath. They weren't welcome in the synagogues, so forget that idea. Both Paul and Christ were there evangelizing the lost. And risking their lives to do it.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Don't put words in my mouth and don't brush me off.

Where does either Christ or the Apostle Paul tell believers to observe the Sabbath?

You have failed to prove that the Christian church was a Sabbath-keeping church. You have provided nothing that shows believers gathering for worship on the Sabbath. They weren't welcome in the synagogues, so forget that idea. Both Paul and Christ were there evangelizing the lost. And risking their lives to do it.

Hello Steve nice to see you. I suggest you start off by reading the post you are quoting from. You were the one making the claim that the early Christian Church did not keep the Sabbath not me. I thought you had some scripture for your belief. It seems you did not. You were provided with scripture that disagrees with you. You do not believe them. This is between you and God as they are God's WORD's not mine. We will have to agree to disagree. All your doing now is stating your own words over God's. All of us are lost without the Word of God. Only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD are his people.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2018

Cis.jd said:
Ok, but just remember You believe in something that is ruled by apostolic tradition not scripture, you just won't admit it.

Again, I think you make a valid point. And especially as it applies to this topic.

The traditions of men gave us the scriptures from which they make their argument against the traditions of men. Thus biting the hand that feeds.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Again, I think you make a valid point. And especially as it applies to this topic.

The traditions of men gave us the scriptures from which they make their argument against the traditions of men. Thus biting the hand that feeds.

Steve sounds like you have a lot in common with the Catholic Church if you believe that it is ok to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. However, it is Jesus that teaches if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who do we believe and follow? The teachings and traditions of men or the WORD of God? Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

May God help you as you seek him through his WORD.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Steve nice to see you. I suggest you start off by reading the post you are quoting from. You were the one making the claim that the early Christian Church did not keep the Sabbath not me. I thought you had some scripture for your belief. It seems you did not. You were provided with scripture that disagrees with you. You do not believe them. This is between you and God as they are God's WORD's not mine. We will have to agree to disagree. All your doing now is stating your own words over God's. All of us are lost without the Word of God. Only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD are his people.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

You are asking me to provide scripture that says the Christian church was not a Sabbath-keeping church. Thus proving something that doesn't exist. Can you provide scripture that says the church didn't meet on the first day of the week? No, because they did.

Can you prove that there was no city named Pittsburgh in biblical times? Scripture please. One that says there was no Pittsburgh in biblical times.

That's how ridiculous your request is.

Saint Steven · Sep 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Steve sounds like you have a lot in common with the Catholic Church if you believe that it is ok to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. However, it is Jesus that teaches if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who do we believe and follow? The teachings and traditions of men or the WORD of God? Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

May God help you as you seek him through his WORD.

You are accusing the Catholic Church of breaking the commandments of God due to their traditions? Which traditions of the Catholic Church do you claim break the Commandments of God? Chapter and verse please.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
You are accusing the Catholic Church of breaking the commandments of God due to their traditions? Which traditions of the Catholic Church do you claim break the Commandments of God? Chapter and verse please.

Steve, great question...

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

............

CONFESSIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE CHANGE OF THE SABBATH TO SUNDAY HANDED DOWN TO PROTESTANTISM

............

How can you proclaim to be protestant when following the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God?

Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

Hope this helps.

WHO DO YOU FOLLOW THE TRADITIONS OF MEN OR THE WORD OF GOD (JESUS)?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

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