What is the Gospel?

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Wordkeeper said in post #397:

If you came to me for help and I said I’d pray for you, that’s not a good work.

Prayer is a good work (Colossians 4:12).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

It’s like the shameless believer in James 2 who wishes the poor brother well.

Note that prayer is not mentioned in James 2.

But it is mentioned in James 5:13-16. Note especially what James 5:16b says.

The analogy in James 2:15-17 means that faith must have works if it is to remain alive (James 2:26).

It is not denying that prayer is a work, but means that almsgiving is a work.

One should do both.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

[Re: Luke 14:33]

They have to know their limitations and ask for a lesser task, ask for terms of peace.

Note that Luke 14:33 says that it is required of every Christian.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Just answer the question: “Are unbaptised babies going to hell?”

Nonelect babies go to hell whether they are baptized or not.

It could be that elect babies don't die, but grow up to become Christians, because that's what election means (Acts 13:48b).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

The fact that Juvenile Hall/Court exists means that minors are treated separately. The award is education, not punishment.

So being sent to a Juvenile Hall is an award?

Have you ever been to one?

Also, note that in some jurisdictions, minors can be tried as adults under certain circumstances.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Faith is correctly translated as loyalty. Loyalty can be expressed without works . . .

Note that it can't, because faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

The Covenant of Works is given to Israel and Israel only.

The New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) is also a covenant of works, ultimately (James 2:24). And it is also given to Israel only (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

God asked Peter to eat, telling him He had made everything clean. In other words, God told him Jews, people different from the rest of the world, had stopped existing.

No, they continued to exist (Acts 12:11).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

The text said no Jew came to the wedding feast.

The Church was started by Jews (Acts 22:3).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Judaism is a religion linked to a covenant of works given to a group separated from the rest of the world.

Same with New Covenant Judaism (1 Peter 2:9).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

The text says that the People of God are identified by faith.

And they must also be identified by works, ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Fear and avoidance are characteristics of servants.

No, true servants do not avoid their masters, but actually serve them (Ephesians 6:5-7).

And fear is a characteristic of non-servants who think that someone wants to kill them.

And avoidance is a characteristic of non-servants who think that someone is not worth keeping company with.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

You can pay for something, but if you don’t take possession of it, you do not become what possessing it entitles you to become, even if it is the throne of a ruler purchased by a servant.

If you pay for something, you own it legally.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Israel transgressed, tried to seek its own righteousness, Judaism, instead of the righteousness of God, Christianity, and was made into a vessel of dishonor.

Note that Israel is not a vessel of dishonor (Romans 9:4-5).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Ezekiel 18:19, 20 says that the father will be punished for his own sins, and the children will be punished for their own sins.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 says that the child will not ultimately suffer for the Father's sin only so long as the child becomes obedient. It's the same under the New Covenant (Hebrews 5:9).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Each will be responsible for their own sins, unlike the claim by the doctrine of Original Sin, and by you, who say that Adam’s sin is our sin.

We all die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22) because of original sin, which is taught by the Bible (Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

. . . the believers in Acts 19 were already baptised in water.

Like in Acts 1:5.

But there, Jesus Christ was simply bringing up the concept of "baptism" to apply it to Holy Spirit baptism. He was not denying that Christians should both be water baptized in His name and be Holy Spirit baptized. For note what the apostle Paul did later in Acts 19:1-6. His question in Acts 19:2 relates to how Christians are to be water baptized (Matthew 28:19). That is, if the people whom the apostle Paul was speaking to in Acts 19:1-6 had been Christian water-baptized, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. But they said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Therefore, they needed to be Christian water-baptized, as in Acts 19:5.

Also, note two other things in Acts 19:1-6.

First, people do not automatically receive Holy Spirit baptism after they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul asks his question in Acts 19:2.

Second, Christian water-baptism does not automatically impart Holy Spirit baptism. That is why the apostle Paul had to lay his hands on the people in Acts 19:6 for them to receive Holy Spirit baptism, even after they had been Christian water-baptized in Acts 19:5.

Note that this was also the case in Acts 8:15-17. That is, the Samaritan Christians got Christian water-baptized first. And then sometime later they got Holy Spirit baptized, through the laying on of hands.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, but that doesn’t mean that water is what baptises a person into Christ’s death, but faith, loyalty, like the thief on the cross.

Regarding the thief on the cross, note that he could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died; and so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, Christians have to obey all of His New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including His commandment that every Christian get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

But Christ said whoever had seen Him had seen the Father.

He did not mean the Father Himself (1 John 4:12), but a perfect image of the Father (Colossians 1:15).

For the Father is a different Person than the Son (John 14:28).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

So mercy is found in the bowels?

Note that just because Colossians 3:12 is figurative does not make Luke 16:23 figurative.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

[Re: You never dream?]

Yes I do, but I can’t show them to anyone.

Not even in pictures drawn by an artist under your direction?

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

If mistaken makes sense, then there is no need to change the view, to look again.

There is, if it proves to be mistaken.

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

God’s word can be used only with those who accept it as truth.

God’s Word itself is what causes people to accept it as truth (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).

Wordkeeper said in post #397:

Paul uses secular philosophy with the Greeks on Mars Hill.

Note that he didn't, for he knew that it wouldn't help (1 Corinthians 1:17 to 2:16).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #399:

DamianWarS said:

Does anyone even bother to read the op?

This begs the question what is the purpose of the Gospel? Should it "fix" ones theology or should it be more focused on introducing someone to Jesus?

Note that it is not either/or, but both/and.

For Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).
 
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Matthew13:9 said in post #398:

The day he was begotten and declared to be the son of God by the Holy Spirit is the day he was resurrected, as confirmed in the scripture below:

Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus Christ is the "only begotten" (only born) Son of God (John 3:16) in that He is the only human ever born without any human father (Luke 1:34-35).

Acts 13:33 must be taken together with Acts 13:34-37, which shows that the resurrection of the Son was foretold not in Psalms 2:7, but in Psalms 16:10.

But His resurrection was the proof that He was the Son (Romans 1:4), just as the Father had said at Jesus' baptism that Jesus was the Son (Mark 1:11).
 
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Prayer is a good work (Colossians 4:12).

Baptised babies can’t pray. So according to your doctrine, they go to hell as well, because your teaching requires baptism AND faith AND works. That’s the general tone of all your posts, illogical and only supported by verses taken out of context. Your views reek of medievalism, specifically fideism, where faith is disconnected from reason, and fear was used to recruit and retain church members. A believer could’t even ask for explanations, and some were even excommunicated for doubting. “Baptise your babies or they’ll go to hell”, forgetting that babies don’t have faith! “Salvation requires faith (belief) and works”, when the truth is that faith should be translated as loyalty, which means showing faith in different ways in different situations.

Note that prayer is not mentioned in James 2.

But it is mentioned in James 5:13-16. Note especially what James 5:16b says.

The analogy in James 2:15-17 means that faith must have works if it is to remain alive (James 2:26).

It is not denying that prayer is a work, but means that almsgiving is a work.

One should do both.

James 2:So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

The text teaches that the New Covenant gives freedom, liberty, to interpret faith, loyalty. In the Covenant of Works, if a believer needed to pay one tenth, he was forced to pay just that. In the Covenant of Loyalty, every action of the believer was guided by what Jesus would do, doing acts that reflected loyalty to Him. If someone asked for help and you were not able to help, you could tell him and then help him to get help, if possible. If good works are done by someone else, according to the definition of good works as an offering that cost the giver, then the work is not something that we have done. However, we will not be punished for not doing a good work in that situation.

Note that Luke 14:33 says that it is required of every Christian.

What does “terms of peace”, available to some Christians, mean in Luke 14:32?

Luke 14:32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.

Nonelect babies go to hell whether they are baptized or not.

It could be that elect babies don't die, but grow up to become Christians, because that's what election means (Acts 13:48b).

Babies in North Korea who grow up to be adults are the “elect”? Are you on drugs?

So being sent to a Juvenile Hall is an award?

Have you ever been to one?

Also, note that in some jurisdictions, minors can be tried as adults under certain circumstances.

I didn’t use the word “sentence” because it relates to punishment. An award is a receiving of what one needs to be cured. Minors are people whose brain frontal lobes haven’t fully developed. They are mentally challenged, to put it bluntly. The recent findings that psychopaths have dysfunction in the parts of the brain responsible for moral judgment led to the Supreme Court ordering that they be taken out of prison, and transferred to mental institutions.

Note that it can't, because faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

James was correcting people who were misinterpreting Paul’s teaching against Judaisers.

Those who teach tithing of even mint and cummin, but left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to God’s revelations: guilty of seeking a righteousness of their own, of Judaism.

Those who teach tithing of even mint and cummin but did not leave out justice, mercy and but left out faithfulness to God’s revelation: guilty of seeking a righteousness of their own, of Judaism, identified because they have not bowed their knees to Baal, as the remnant, and the reason why Israel has not gone the way of extinction, like Sodom and Gomorrah. They live like Gentiles amongst Gentiles, because even though they do not have a covenant (its been abolished) if they do what is required by the law even if they have they do not have the law, will not their uncleanness be treated as clean ness? The law will be a guardian for Israel till Christ comes again.

Those who teach the requirement of circumcision and food laws, as well as loyalty to Christ: guilty of Judaising, guilty of seeking a righteousness of their own, of Judaism. Christ, the New Covenant, the inheritance is of no benefit to them.

Those who teach that loyalty to Christ is to be expressed without good deeds: guilty of antinomianism. Loyalty to Christ is expressed in doing what Jesus would do in a particular situation.

If a brother in need came to Christ what would He do?

Christ would give him material help, if He had it.

He would cure him of a physical disability, if he had it.

However to do the above, we must become Christ’s disciples by leaving everything identifying us with mammon, and serve God.

Some of us can’t build that tower, and we can only ask for terms of peace.

Then we will not possess the Kingdom of God, we can only do lesser acts of loyalty.

The New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) is also a covenant of works, ultimately (James 2:24). And it is also given to Israel only (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

The New Covenant is entered and possessed by faith, loyalty, and we are free to interpret what that loyalty is, taking care to know that we will be judged by Christ’s standards:

James 2:12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

No, they continued to exist (Acts 12:11).

People who possess the Old Covenant are Jews, but since that Covenant is abolished by God, it doesn’t exist. So Jews don’t exist either.

The Church was started by Jews (Acts 22:3).

God told Paul to leave Judaism:

Acts 22: 17“It happened when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance, 18and I saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.’

Same with New Covenant Judaism (1 Peter 2:9).

So what does NC Judaism require to be separated from the world that is different from what NC Christianity requires?

And they must also be identified by works, ultimately (Matthew 7:21).

Then what is the Law of Liberty?

No, true servants do not avoid their masters, but actually serve them (Ephesians 6:5-7).

And fear is a characteristic of non-servants who think that someone wants to kill them.

And avoidance is a characteristic of non-servants who think that someone is not worth keeping company with.

John 19:13"He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
 
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If you pay for something, you own it legally.


Not with an unfair contract. If you pay peanuts for a mansion, and the owner refuses to leave because he is a strong man, then you don’t own it. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Both de jure and de facto. In court, and out of it.

Note that Israel is not a vessel of dishonor (Romans 9:4-5).


Sure, the Israel of the flesh is only hardened temporarily, insisting they were superior, raised up, like Pharoah. Pharoah was raised up, became a super power and found it a stumbling block to submit to Israel, the weakest amongst all nations. Judaism was a spiritual super power and found it difficult to submit to Christianity, a newbie in the spiritual world. I suppose Ishmael was strong and handsome, being the firstborn of a strong young woman, whilst Isaac may have been the 90 pound weakling, born to an old woman, so God should have made Judaism the firstborn, seeing:

Romans 9:4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


But the son of the slave woman oppressed the son of the free woman, deprived the sheep of the other flock from receiving their inheritance, so he had to be driven away, abolished.


In the future, God will make a way for Israel to believe righteousness is to be found in God, Christianity, salvation by grace through faith, by favor through loyalty, not in themselves, Judaism, salvation by wages through work, by compensation through identifying themselves with Abraham.


Ezekiel 18:19-20 says that the child will not ultimately suffer for the Father's sin only so long as the child becomes obedient. It's the same under the New Covenant (Hebrews 5:9).


Where does it say there is a situation where God says a son will suffer for the father’s sin? Man wants sons to suffer for the father’s sin, but God says the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Ezekiel 18: 19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.


We all die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22) because of original sin, which is taught by the Bible (Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).


But Romans 5:12 says “because of Adam”, not “in Adam”.
 
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Like in Acts 1:5


But there, Jesus Christ was simply bringing up the concept of "baptism" to apply it to Holy Spirit baptism. He was not denying that Christians should both be water baptized in His name and be Holy Spirit baptized. For note what the apostle Paul did later in Acts 19:1-6. His question in Acts 19:2 relates to how Christians are to be water baptized (Matthew 28:19). That is, if the people whom the apostle Paul was speaking to in Acts 19:1-6 had been Christian water-baptized, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. But they said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Therefore, they needed to be Christian water-baptized, as in Acts 19:5.

Also, note two other things in Acts 19:1-6.


First, people do not automatically receive Holy Spirit baptism after they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul asks his question in Acts 19:2.


Second, Christian water-baptism does not automatically impart Holy Spirit baptism. That is why the apostle Paul had to lay his hands on the people in Acts 19:6 for them to receive Holy Spirit baptism, even after they had been Christian water-baptized in Acts 19:5.


Note that this was also the case in Acts 8:15-17. That is, the Samaritan Christians got Christian water-baptized first. And then sometime later they got Holy Spirit baptized, through the laying on of hands.


So you changed your view from saying “salvation requires water baptism” to “salvation requires Christian water baptism”. What a flaky theology. Here’s a chance to flake some more:


Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


Regarding the thief on the cross, note that he could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died; and so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, Christians have to obey all of His New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including His commandment that every Christian get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.


John the Baptist was Old Covenant, and he baptised before the New Covenant was inaugurated. You just don’t understand what baptism is and what it is for. If you start a new thread, we can unpack it neatly.


He did not mean the Father Himself (1 John 4:12), but a perfect image of the Father (Colossians 1:15).


For the Father is a different Person than the Son (John 14:28).


We are also made in God’s image. So do you mean to say those who have seen us have seen God?
 
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Note that just because Colossians 3:12 is figurative does not make Luke 16:23 figurative.


So don’t use the Bible as a science textbook. The Bible is used to communicate spiritual ideas and principles, and it accurately does that. Since it is not a textbook, it doesn’t have to communicate physiological information. Books which deal with the subject will tell you that real things can be sensed by the five senses.


Not even in pictures drawn by an artist under your direction?


They are not the dreams themselves.
 
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There is, if it proves to be mistaken.


If it is mistaken, it is non sensical.
God’s Word itself is what causes people to accept it as truth (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).


The Greeks know more about what the real problem with their lives are than you do. You should read them. Unless you know what the illness is, which is hidden in God’s Word, because you still love the darkness, how can you cure it?


Note that he didn't, for he knew that it wouldn't help (1 Corinthians 1:17 to 2:16).


You should unpack that, how the world would argue and how Christianity would respond. You would be surprised.
 
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Note that it is not either/or, but both/and.

For Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

It boils down to whether the Gospels reveal what believers must strive to reach, introduce them to Jesus, or do they teach how to reach that result, like the Epistles do.
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #403:

Baptised babies can’t pray. So according to your doctrine, they go to hell as well, because your teaching requires baptism AND faith AND works.

Baptized babies aren't really baptized, because a person being baptized must already be a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

Your views reek of medievalism, specifically fideism, where faith is disconnected from reason . . .

No, for when Christians are granted God's miraculous gift of faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b), they do not abandon reason/logic, but also accept God's reason/logic, which is far more excellent than human reason/logic on its own (Isaiah 55:8-9, Isaiah 1:18; 1 Corinthians 2:4-5,12-16). Human reason/logic (human wisdom) on its own is infinitesimal (cf. Isaiah 40:17) and foolishness compared with God's reason/logic (God's wisdom). And yet human wisdom on its own is so proud that it considers God's wisdom to be foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Human reason/logic can convince people that they are on the right path, when in fact they are not (Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25). For example, Hitler and his tens of millions of followers were convinced that their reason/logic had placed them on the right path, when in fact all it did is place them and millions of others on the path of an early death. That is, not only did it result in the slaughter of millions of Nazi soldiers and civilians, but also millions of Jews and others in the Holocaust, and all of the tens of millions of other non-Nazi people who died in the battles and bombings during World War II. Similarly, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot thought that their atheistic reason/logic had placed them and their nations on the right path, when in fact all it did is result in the horrible suffering and early death of millions of their own people.

Apart from Jesus Christ, human wisdom is seen by God as foolishness and vanity (1 Corinthians 3:19-20; 1 Corinthians 1:19-20), as far beneath God's wisdom as the earth is beneath the heavens (Isaiah 55:9). But in Christ (Galatians 3:27), Christians receive a measure of God's wisdom by receiving a measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12-13, Ephesians 1:17), and Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16b; 1 Corinthians 1:24,30), Jesus Christ's own Word (Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, Isaiah 55:10-11).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

. . . and fear was used to recruit and retain church members.

Note that Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).

Some Christians mistakenly think that they should not have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

But it is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Also, when 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

A believer couldn’t even ask for explanations, and some were even excommunicated for doubting.

Christians should give explanations (2 Timothy 2:24-25), and not excommunicate the doubtful (Mark 9:24), so long as their "doubt" is not a masquerade for heresy (Titus 3:10).

But doubt is always a sin (Romans 14:23).

If Christians ever feel that their faith is weakening into unbelief, they can pray to Jesus Christ to help them (Mark 9:24). If they want more faith to come into their hearts, they can read the Bible, or listen to someone reading the Bible out loud (Romans 10:17), whether in person or in a recording. And they can pray to Jesus to increase their faith (Luke 17:5).

If Christians want to keep their hearts from being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13b), they can fellowship with other Christians every day (Hebrews 3:13), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum, being exhorted by them, and exhorting them in turn (Hebrews 10:25). One way that Christians can lose their faith is by having unrepentant sin in their lives which sears their conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2b), to where they begin to reject the faith, and start listening to lies from demons instead (1 Timothy 4:1-2). In a desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Ultimately, the only rock-solid base for Christian faith is doing God's will (Matthew 7:24-25, John 7:17, James 1:22). For if Christians remain in disobedience to God without repentance, their faith will come to have, as it were, a foundation of sand, so that their faith will collapse when trouble comes (Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), such as during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13). It is Christians' obedience to Jesus Christ's commands which causes Him to continue to manifest Himself to them (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

"Baptise your babies or they'll go to hell", forgetting that babies don’t have faith! "Salvation requires faith (belief) and works", when the truth is that faith should be translated as loyalty, which means showing faith in different ways in different situations.

Note that faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

What does "terms of peace", available to some Christians, mean in Luke 14:32?

Note that Luke 14:32 is not contradicting the requirement placed on every Christian in Luke 14:33 and Luke 14:26-27. For the parables in Luke 14:28-32 mean that people have to realize the full extent of that requirement before they claim to be Christians. Also, the peace in Luke 14:32 is not figurative of peace with God, for Christians do not go forth to make war with God (Luke 14:31-32). Instead, the peace for the king in Luke 14:31-32 is in him not even starting what he was going to do, just as the solution for the tower builder would have been for him to have not even started what he was going to do (Luke 14:28-30). That is, people should not even start claiming to be a Christian before they have performed in full the requirement placed on every Christian in Luke 14:33 and Luke 14:26-27. And if they are one of the relatively few people who are truly chosen by God (Matthew 22:14), then this will be easy for them to do (Matthew 11:30). That is, when they hear Jesus Christ say to them: "Come and follow Me", they will gladly walk away from everything but the clothes on their back (Mark 1:16-20).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

Babies in North Korea who grow up to be adults are the "elect"?

Only if they become Christians (Acts 13:48b).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

I didn’t use the word "sentence" because it relates to punishment. An award is a receiving of what one needs to be cured.

Which can mean punishment (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

People who possess the Old Covenant are Jews, but since that Covenant is abolished by God, it doesn’t exist. So Jews don’t exist either.

They do (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

[Re: Acts 22:17-18]

God told Paul to leave Judaism . . .

No, Jerusalem (Acts 22:18).

Christianity is New Covenant Judaism (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 9:15).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

Then what is the Law of Liberty?

The law of Christ (John 8:34-36), which requires works (Matthew 7:21).

Wordkeeper said in post #403:

John 10:13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.

Note that non-servants (of men) can also flee (John 10:5).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #404:

[Re: If you pay for something, you own it legally]

Not with an unfair contract.

Genesis 25:31-34 was fair.

Wordkeeper said in post #404:

If you pay peanuts for a mansion, and the owner refuses to leave because he is a strong man, then you don’t own it.

If you pay a peppercorn for a mansion, in a contract agreed to by the owner, then you do own it legally.

Wordkeeper said in post #404:

Possession is nine tenths of the law.

That isn't claiming that de facto possession is de jure ownership, but is claiming that most laws are about possession in the sense of who has legal ownership of something. Otherwise, you would be saying that as soon as a robber takes possession of stolen goods, he is the legal owner.
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #404:

But the son of the slave woman oppressed the son of the free woman, deprived the sheep of the other flock from receiving their inheritance, so he had to be driven away, abolished.

As in the Old Covenant had to be abolished (Ephesians 2:15), not Israel (Romans 11:1-5).

Wordkeeper said in post #404:

Where does it say there is a situation where God says a son will suffer for the father’s sin?

1 Corinthians 15:22a.

Wordkeeper said in post #404:

But Romans 5:12 says "because of Adam", not "in Adam".

But 1 Corinthians 15:22a says "in Adam", based on Romans 5:19a.

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #405:

So you changed your view from saying "salvation requires water baptism" to "salvation requires Christian water baptism".

No, that has always been the view (Mark 16:16).

Wordkeeper said in post #405:

You just don’t understand what baptism is and what it is for.

Our literally being buried (immersed) in the water of baptism is symbolic of our dying and being buried into Jesus Christ's literal death and burial for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). Similarly, when we literally rise up out of the water of baptism, this is symbolic of our being raised up into a new life in Jesus, just as Jesus was literally raised from the dead (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). So if we deny our need to be immersed and then to come up out of the water, this is akin to denying the need for Jesus to literally die for our sins and be buried, and then to literally rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15). That is, if we feel free to claim that the burial of baptism is wholly symbolic, then what will prevent us from claiming that Jesus' death and resurrection were also wholly symbolic, that they never actually happened, or never had to happen, literally?

Wordkeeper said in post #405:

We are also made in God’s image. So do you mean to say those who have seen us have seen God?

They have seen God's image (1 Corinthians 11:7), but not God the Father Himself (1 John 4:12).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #406:

So don’t use the Bible as a science textbook.

Why not, when it refers to literal things?

For there is no actual conflict between science and Biblical faith, for nothing proven true by science has ever proven anything in the Bible to be false.

Wordkeeper said in post #406:

The Bible is used to communicate spiritual ideas and principles, and it accurately does that.

Note that the spiritual is also scientific.

For what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all of the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc², meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec³, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes, and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities should not be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion, and memory, then spiritual waves could consist of three sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves, and memory waves) interlocked at sixty-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of two sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a ninety-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It is possible that by creating a mathematics which involves five dimensions of space-time (instead of four), the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.

String Theory has shown that it is mathematically possible that space-time has more than three spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b, and Luke 24:31b, the spiritual realm could be a fourth spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our three physical spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes, and light as we know it, extend in only three physical spatial dimensions. The spiritual spatial dimension would be higher than our three physical spatial dimensions in the same sense that a third physical spatial dimension is higher than two physical spatial dimensions. And so from the spiritual spatial dimension, our three physical spatial dimensions may appear flat (or flatter), just as from three physical spatial dimensions, something in two physical spatial dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual spatial dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.

If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit would not have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but rather as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science cannot yet observe directly or explain?

The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" (or some other particle, detected at even higher, Large-Hadron-Collider energy levels) is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God of the Bible, saying that the existence of spirit per se does not require that there is one infinite, conscious spirit-being named YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being named Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy, Large-Hadron-Collider experiment and claim that he is the true and beneficent God of mankind, and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

-

The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer (Satan) could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building, which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly-powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

"YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He is coming to enslave you all and turn you all into Borg-like drones. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile, material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".

Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming from heaven, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids, and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device will not work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Wordkeeper said in post #406:

Books which deal with the subject will tell you that real things can be sensed by the five senses.

Note that God the Father is real, but He has never been sensed by the five senses (1 John 4:12). Because He is Spirit (John 4:24).

Wordkeeper said in post #406:

[Re: Pictures of dreams drawn by an artist under the direction of the dreamer]

They are not the dreams themselves.

But they are a way to show someone else what was seen in the dreams.

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #407:

If it is mistaken, it is non sensical.

Not necessarily. For even a mistaken idea can make sense. For example, it was mistaken to think that the sun orbited the earth, but it made sense with regard to how things appear to someone on the earth.

Wordkeeper said in post #407:

The Greeks know more about what the real problem with their lives are than you do. You should read them.

It would be better to read God's Word the Bible instead (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).

Wordkeeper said in post #407:

Unless you know what the illness is, which is hidden in God’s Word, because you still love the darkness, how can you cure it?

Note that the illness is not hidden in God’s Word, for it shows that the illness is sin (John 3:19).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #408:

It boils down to whether the Gospels reveal what believers must strive to reach, introduce them to Jesus, or do they teach how to reach that result, like the Epistles do.

Note that both the Gospels and the Epistles teach both (Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).
 
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Baptized babies aren't really baptized, because a person being baptized must already be a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38).


Baptized babies received bread from heaven, drank from the Rock just like the adults in the Exodus. So they had the advantage of being cleansed by Christ to be presented spotless before God longer than the adults. Consequentially, more of them entered Rest than the adults, when God turned His attention to them, and they heard His voice and obeyed. When they were twenty years old. Could enter contract.

No, for when Christians are granted God's miraculous gift of faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b), they do not abandon reason/logic, but also accept God's reason/logic, which is far more excellent than human reason/logic on its own (Isaiah 55:8-9, Isaiah 1:18; 1 Corinthians 2:4-5,12-16). Human reason/logic (human wisdom) on its own is infinitesimal (cf. Isaiah 40:17) and foolishness compared with God's reason/logic (God's wisdom). And yet human wisdom on its own is so proud that it considers God's wisdom to be foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 2:14).


Human reason/logic can convince people that they are on the right path, when in fact they are not (Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25). For example, Hitler and his tens of millions of followers were convinced that their reason/logic had placed them on the right path, when in fact all it did is place them and millions of others on the path of an early death. That is, not only did it result in the slaughter of millions of Nazi soldiers and civilians, but also millions of Jews and others in the Holocaust, and all of the tens of millions of other non-Nazi people who died in the battles and bombings during World War II. Similarly, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot thought that their atheistic reason/logic had placed them and their nations on the right path, when in fact all it did is result in the horrible suffering and early death of millions of their own people.


Apart from Jesus Christ, human wisdom is seen by God as foolishness and vanity (1 Corinthians 3:19-20; 1 Corinthians 1:19-20), as far beneath God's wisdom as the earth is beneath the heavens (Isaiah 55:9). But in Christ (Galatians 3:27), Christians receive a measure of God's wisdom by receiving a measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12-13, Ephesians 1:17), and Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16b; 1 Corinthians 1:24,30), Jesus Christ's own Word (Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, Isaiah 55:10-11).


Greek teachers know that the gift is not faith, but salvation, a salvation by grace through faith type salvation, as the verb is neuter and qualifies that phrase, which is also neuter. The text says that even that is a gift, because the Gentiles were not included because they were more righteous, no group is righteous, not even one, but because God made Israel to stumble, made her a vessel of dishonor, by making her refuse to believe Christ was the seed, and that allowed Gentiles to become eligible.


Note that Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).


Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).


Some Christians mistakenly think that they should not have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.


But it is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).


Also, when 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).


The church was teaching the believers to fear the leaders. Fideism is avoiding reason. Being faithful blindly. Israel did not leave Egypt blindly, but because she saw God’s great works. Too bad she didn’t keep seeing, keep remembering:


Psalm 106:7Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.


Christians should give explanations (2 Timothy 2:24-25), and not excommunicate the doubtful (Mark 9:24), so long as their "doubt" is not a masquerade for heresy (Titus 3:10).


But doubt is always a sin (Romans 14:23).


If Christians ever feel that their faith is weakening into unbelief, they can pray to Jesus Christ to help them (Mark 9:24). If they want more faith to come into their hearts, they can read the Bible, or listen to someone reading the Bible out loud (Romans 10:17), whether in person or in a recording. And they can pray to Jesus to increase their faith (Luke 17:5).


If Christians want to keep their hearts from being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13b), they can fellowship with other Christians every day (Hebrews 3:13), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum, being exhorted by them, and exhorting them in turn (Hebrews 10:25). One way that Christians can lose their faith is by having unrepentant sin in their lives which sears their conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2b), to where they begin to reject the faith, and start listening to lies from demons instead (1 Timothy 4:1-2). In a desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto any teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).


Ultimately, the only rock-solid base for Christian faith is doing God's will (Matthew 7:24-25, John 7:17, James 1:22). For if Christians remain in disobedience to God without repentance, their faith will come to have, as it were, a foundation of sand, so that their faith will collapse when trouble comes (Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), such as during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13). It is Christians' obedience to Jesus Christ's commands which causes Him to continue to manifest Himself to them (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).


If everyone is led by the Holy Spirit, why are there so many denominations?
 
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Note that faith without works is dead (James 2:26).


Note that if you depend on works for your salvation, then you do not have the Law of Liberty, and Christ’s decision, judgment, is of no benefit to you.


Note that Luke 14:32 is not contradicting the requirement placed on every Christian in Luke 14:33 and Luke 14:26-27. For the parables in Luke 14:28-32 mean that people have to realize the full extent of that requirement before they claim to be Christians. Also, the peace in Luke 14:32 is not figurative of peace with God, for Christians do not go forth to make war with God (Luke 14:31-32). Instead, the peace for the king in Luke 14:31-32 is in him not even starting what he was going to do, just as the solution for the tower builder would have been for him to have not even started what he was going to do (Luke 14:28-30). That is, people should not even start claiming to be a Christian before they have performed in full the requirement placed on every Christian in Luke 14:33 and Luke 14:26-27. And if they are one of the relatively few people who are truly chosen by God (Matthew 22:14), then this will be easy for them to do (Matthew 11:30). That is, when they hear Jesus Christ say to them: "Come and follow Me", they will gladly walk away from everything but the clothes on their back (Mark 1:16-20).


Are you saying that the person can refuse to accept being a Christian because it’s so difficult, such a challenge, like building a tower, or going out to struggle with God? Didn’t you say salvation was easy, that faith and prayer was enough? Why add a difficult act like leaving all traces of mammon behind? If the challenge is so hard, what is the easier option, the terms of peace? Going to hell?


Only if they become Christians (Acts 13:48b).


How will they be saved unless they hear? Don’t the elect receive faith by hearing? Or are there no “elect” in North Korea? Then how do the babies become adults? Your theology works only in isolation. When put together everything contradicts everything else.


Which can mean punishment (Hebrews 12:5-11).


Punishment has a connotation of revenge. Eye for eye-ish. When the Penal Code is applied, it penalizes, there is no sense of helping. Cure has the sense of help, remedy. The central idea in the Juvenile Justice System is to Reform. Chastening in the sense of restriction of liberties as a deterrent is not for curing, it’s for protecting society from harm. Even psychopaths are placed in high security mental institutions for similar reasons.


As for Hebrews 12:5-11, chastening is used to train, not to take revenge, so it is curative. Penal sentencing is primarily to penalize, not cure.


Hebrews 5:10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.




If the Rotary Club disappears, no more Rotarians exist.


No, Jerusalem (Acts 22:18).


Christianity is New Covenant Judaism (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 9:15).


It wasn’t Jerusalem that wouldn’t accept Paul’s testimony about Christ, it was Judaism.


The law of Christ (John 8:34-36), which requires works (Matthew 7:21).


Liberty means freedom. Only hired hands have to work. Family members only have to be faithful, loyal, and Christ will judge who is faithful.


Note that non-servants (of men) can also flee (John 10:5).


John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


You may be ignorant of this, but the type of fleeing in the text you quoted is a good fleeing.




Yes, paying for someone’s birthright with a bowl of soup is fair. In your dreams, maybe.


If you pay a peppercorn for a mansion, in a contract agreed to by the owner, then you do own it legally.


Research the subject, “unfair contract”.


That isn't claiming that de facto possession is de jure ownership, but is claiming that most laws are about possession in the sense of who has legal ownership of something. Otherwise, you would be saying that as soon as a robber takes possession of stolen goods, he is the legal owner.


Wrong. Where a claim is seen to be contentious, whoever possesses the property has the stronger case. Besides, the robber doesn't have a contract.
 
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As in the Old Covenant had to be abolished (Ephesians 2:15), not Israel (Romans 11:1-5).

The Old Covenant only allowed Israel to be eligible. The New Covenant did not require a candidate to be from Israel, all nations were eligible.


Very funny. You claimed that Ezekiel 37:19, 20 says a son will suffer for the father’s sin. Point it out there.

But 1 Corinthians 15:22a says "in Adam", based on Romans 5:19a.

1 Corinthians 12:22a
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

We know that we are not responsible for another person’s sin, as a Biblical principle. It could only mean we die because of our own sin, because Adam caused all those who are in him to lose the immunity, from not knowing good from evil, like minors and the insane, and those in Christ live because they gain diplomatic immunity:

2 Corinthians 5:20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

No, that has always been the view (Mark 16:16).

Your statements should be comprehensive. Right now, it seems you are saying the Old Covenant believers are not saved because they are not baptised with a Christian baptism. Are you going to change your theology again?

Our literally being buried (immersed) in the water of baptism is symbolic of our dying and being buried into Jesus Christ's literal death and burial for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). Similarly, when we literally rise up out of the water of baptism, this is symbolic of our being raised up into a new life in Jesus, just as Jesus was literally raised from the dead (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). So if we deny our need to be immersed and then to come up out of the water, this is akin to denying the need for Jesus to literally die for our sins and be buried, and then to literally rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15). That is, if we feel free to claim that the burial of baptism is wholly symbolic, then what will prevent us from claiming that Jesus' death and resurrection were also wholly symbolic, that they never actually happened, or never had to happen, literally?

Wrong. Baptism is what a believer, who hears the oath of a candidate to abandon the works of the devil and accepts it, does to the candidate, closing the way to return to Egypt, just like the sea closed behind Israel, because God said those who are baptised are never to go back, Deuteronomy 17:6. The promise to Abraham, being blessings to the world, ultimately, being the recipients of the Holy Spirit, is by faith, loyalty to God and reaches the candidate as we see in Acts 10:44-48, where the believers receive the Holy Spirit simply by being loyal to God. We also see Peter recognises this as evidence of faith, loyalty, and allows them to be baptised.

They have seen God's image (1 Corinthians 11:7), but not God the Father Himself (1 John 4:12).

Your theology is full of holes:

Those who have seen Christ have seen an image of the Father, not the Father Himself.

Those who have seen us have seen God’s image not God the Father Himself.


But the text says those who have seen Christ have seen the Father, not His image.

How are you going to reconcile your statements?

Why not, when it refers to literal things?

For there is no actual conflict between science and Biblical faith, for nothing proven true by science has ever proven anything in the Bible to be false.

So things in the Bible which seem false are figures of speech. Then Genesis 31:10 is also a figure of speech.
 
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Note that the spiritual is also scientific.


For what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all of the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).


The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc², meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec³, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).


When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes, and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities should not be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).


Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion, and memory, then spiritual waves could consist of three sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves, and memory waves) interlocked at sixty-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of two sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a ninety-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It is possible that by creating a mathematics which involves five dimensions of space-time (instead of four), the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.


String Theory has shown that it is mathematically possible that space-time has more than three spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b, and Luke 24:31b, the spiritual realm could be a fourth spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our three physical spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes, and light as we know it, extend in only three physical spatial dimensions. The spiritual spatial dimension would be higher than our three physical spatial dimensions in the same sense that a third physical spatial dimension is higher than two physical spatial dimensions. And so from the spiritual spatial dimension, our three physical spatial dimensions may appear flat (or flatter), just as from three physical spatial dimensions, something in two physical spatial dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual spatial dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.


If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so that its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit would not have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but rather as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science cannot yet observe directly or explain?


The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" (or some other particle, detected at even higher, Large-Hadron-Collider energy levels) is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God of the Bible, saying that the existence of spirit per se does not require that there is one infinite, conscious spirit-being named YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being named Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy, Large-Hadron-Collider experiment and claim that he is the true and beneficent God of mankind, and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).


-


The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer (Satan) could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building, which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly-powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:


"YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He is coming to enslave you all and turn you all into Borg-like drones. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile, material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".


Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming from heaven, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids, and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device will not work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).


Anything that uses figures of speech should be carefully examined for metaphors that can be mistaken for literal facts. For example the text mentions a country, a city, a metaphor actually meaning a new humanity, in Christ:


Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.


Judas and Israel all wanted to return to Egypt, but not Joshua and Peter, who were faithful, clean.


Note that God the Father is real, but He has never been sensed by the five senses (1 John 4:12). Because He is Spirit (John 4:24).

Last I checked, hearing is a sense, and Israel heard God at Sinai. Seriously, are you taking your meds?
 
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But they are a way to show someone else what was seen in the dreams.


Proving dreams themselves can’t be seen, they can only be dreamt, imagined, like any other imaginary things, by the dreamer himself.


Not necessarily. For even a mistaken idea can make sense. For example, it was mistaken to think that the sun orbited the earth, but it made sense with regard to how things appear to someone on the earth.


If it is mistaken, it is non sensical.


It would be better to read God's Word the Bible instead (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).


But it would be “Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Greeks”. Didn’t Paul say that he became a Jew to the Jews and a Gentile to the Gentiles?


Note that the illness is not hidden in God’s Word, for it shows that the illness is sin (John 3:19).


It is hidden to those without the Holy Spirit. That’s why the Jews spent so much time without success trying to find out how to gain eternal life, life with purpose, by being made pure to be in union with God, in Scripture, because they were not given the Holy Spirit, the blessing of the New Covenant. Like I said, find out what the Greeks say is the problem with the world and you’ll be able to answer them, with proof.


Note that both the Gospels and the Epistles teach both (Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).


Note that the Gospels describe the Kingdom of God, union with God, more than how to reach it. Note that the Epistles talk about building up, how to reach the goal of entering the Kingdom, more than about the Kingdom itself.
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Baptized babies received bread from heaven, drank from the Rock just like the adults in the Exodus.

But under the New Covenant, a person being baptized must already be a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

So they had the advantage of being cleansed by Christ to be presented spotless before God longer than the adults.

Note that 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 does not mean (as is sometimes claimed) that Israelites during Old Testament times obtained the same thing as Christians, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11:40).

Instead, in 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 the apostle Paul means that all of the Israelites during the Exodus ate the same literal manna of Exodus 16:15, and drank the same literal water of Exodus 17:6, just as the Israelites during the Exodus "were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Corinthians 10:2). But this did not mean that all of them would obtain ultimate salvation, for "with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness" (1 Corinthians 10:5).

And this loss of their salvation was an example of how Christians can ultimately lose their salvation. For "these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things" (1 Corinthians 10:6); "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12). That is, even after Christians have partaken of the literal flesh and blood of Communion (John 6:53-55, Matthew 26:26-28), and have been water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Consequentially, more of them entered Rest than the adults, when God turned His attention to them, and they heard His voice and obeyed.

Note that none of the Old Covenant Israelites entered Rest. For see Hebrews 4:8, where the person referred to as "Jesus" is the man named "Joshua" in the book of Joshua in the Old Testament. For "Jesus" (Greek: "Iesous") is the Greek version of the name "Joshua" (Hebrew: Yehowshuwa), just as, for example, "Juan" is the Spanish version of the English name "John". The book of Hebrews (in the KJV) uses "Jesus" because it was originally written in Greek, while the book of Joshua (in the KJV) uses "Joshua" because it was originally written in Hebrew.

Hebrews 4:8 means that if the Joshua in the book of Joshua had given the ancient Israelites the New Covenant rest which can be found only in the New Covenant faith in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:3a, Matthew 11:28-30), then after the time of Joshua, God would not have foretold through David the (at the time of David) still-future New Covenant rest (Hebrews 4:7-8, Psalms 95:7b-8,11, Hebrews 4:3). King David lived about 400 years after Joshua. And the New Covenant was not inaugurated until the Cross of Jesus Christ (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a), which was about 1,000 years after the time of David.

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

When they were twenty years old. Could enter contract.

Note that a child can know and serve God the Father even at twelve (Luke 2:42-49).

Also, regarding a contract, under the New Covenant note that initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

[Re: Ephesians 2:8]

Greek teachers know that the gift is not faith, but salvation, a salvation by grace through faith type salvation, as the verb is neuter and qualifies that phrase, which is also neuter.

If the gift is a salvation by grace through faith, then this requires that faith itself is a gift (John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

. . . God made Israel to stumble, made her a vessel of dishonor . . .

Note that Israel is not a vessel of dishonor (Romans 9:4-5).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

The church was teaching the believers to fear the leaders.

Believers are to obey Church leaders (Hebrews 13:17).

But leaders in the Church should never exercise their authority in an imperious manner (1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27). But neither should they shrink from their responsibility to, for example, expel from their congregation any Christian who is continuing in unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 5:11-13). This expulsion can be done in a loving manner (2 Thessalonians 3:15), with the motive of hoping that it will wake up the expelled person to the seriousness of his spiritual situation, and so cause him to want to repent, instead of continuing in his sin until Jesus Christ returns and cuts him to pieces as a hypocrite (Matthew 24:48-51).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Fideism is avoiding reason.

There is no reason for the faithful to avoid reason. For nothing about faith contradicts reason.

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Being faithful blindly.

2 Corinthians 5:7

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Israel did not leave Egypt blindly, but because she saw God’s great works.

Note that people are not to seek miracles to become Christians (Matthew 16:4). Neither are Christians to seek them to remain Christians.

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

Too bad she didn’t keep seeing, keep remembering . . .

Too bad that it's possible for Christians to not keep remembering the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:2).

Wordkeeper said in post #412:

If everyone is led by the Holy Spirit, why are there so many denominations?

If by "everyone" you mean every true Christian (Romans 8:9b), note that Biblical Christians are not to divide into denominations (1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4). And they cannot interpret any Bible verse in a way which contradicts what the Bible as a whole teaches. Also, different interpretations of the Bible do not mean that its doctrines cannot be known for certain, but mean that the Holy Spirit does not take away the free will of Christians (and those who wrongly claim to be Christians), who can wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and reject the Bible's sound doctrines to chase after man-made fables instead (2 Timothy 4:2-4). If all Christians would become willing to accept what the Bible teaches when it is taken in its entirety (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4, Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13), then all Christians could become united in what they believe (1 Corinthians 1:10).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Note that if you depend on works for your salvation, then you do not have the Law of Liberty, and Christ’s decision, judgment, is of no benefit to you.

Christians depend on both their faith and works for their salvation (James 2:26). For Christ's New Covenant law of liberty (John 8:34-36) still requires works (Matthew 7:21).

Galatians 5:4 refers to those who think that they still have to do the works of the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Are you saying that the person can refuse to accept being a Christian because it’s so difficult, such a challenge, like building a tower . . .

If they are nonelect.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Are you saying that the person can refuse to accept being a Christian because it’s so difficult, such a challenge, like building a tower, or going out to struggle with God?

Note that Christians do not go out to struggle with God, in the sense of warring against Him. For that would be Satanic (e.g. Revelation 12:7).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Didn’t you say salvation was easy, that faith and prayer was enough?

Salvation is easy for the elect (Matthew 11:30). But they may need more works than just prayer (1 Corinthians 12:28, Romans 12:6-8).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Why add a difficult act like leaving all traces of mammon behind?

It's not difficult for the elect (Mark 1:16-20).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

If the challenge is so hard, what is the easier option, the terms of peace? Going to hell?

Note that there is no other option than Luke 14:33 and Luke 14:26-27 for anyone who wants to be a Christian.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

How will they be saved unless they hear? Don’t the elect receive faith by hearing?

Yes (Romans 10:17).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Or are there no “elect” in North Korea?

There are some. For the Gospel is preached even there, although the preachers of it can be arrested.

Also, note that the doctrine of "the elect", which means "the chosen", is taught by the Bible (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Then how do the babies become adults?

By not dying.
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Your theology works only in isolation.

Note that the theology which has been presented is the Gospel, which works everywhere (Matthew 24:14).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

When put together everything contradicts everything else.

Note that what has been presented is not contradictory, because it is from God's Word the Bible, and He is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Punishment has a connotation of revenge. Eye for eye-ish.

Not always (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

When the Penal Code is applied, it penalizes, there is no sense of helping.

When God's punishment is applied to elect people, there is a sense of helping (Revelation 3:19).

Indeed, the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and chastening, and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

The central idea in the Juvenile Justice System is to Reform.

Ask an inmate at Juvenile Hall if he is being punished or not.

Also, what is the recidivism rate for those sent to Juvenile Hall and later released?

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Chastening in the sense of restriction of liberties as a deterrent is not for curing, it’s for protecting society from harm.

Note that Juvenile Hall involves the restriction of liberties and the protecting of society from harm.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Even psychopaths are placed in high security mental institutions for similar reasons.

Ask a psychopath in a high security mental institution if he is being punished or not.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Penal sentencing is primarily to penalize, not cure.

How many psychopaths have been cured?

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

If the Rotary Club disappears, no more Rotarians exist.

But neither Israel nor Jews have ceased to exist (Acts 22:3, Romans 11:1-5).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

It wasn’t Jerusalem that wouldn’t accept Paul’s testimony about Christ, it was Judaism.

Old Covenant Judaism was in control of Jerusalem (Galatians 4:24-25).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Liberty means freedom. Only hired hands have to work. Family members only have to be faithful, loyal, and Christ will judge who is faithful.

Christ will judge us by our works (Romans 2:6-8). For we are not only His family members (John 1:12), but also His willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) (Revelation 1:1).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

[Re: John 10:5]

You may be ignorant of this, but the type of fleeing in the text you quoted is a good fleeing.

Of course.

And it was no doubt a good thing for the non-servant Jacob to avoid Esau.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Yes, paying for someone’s birthright with a bowl of soup is fair. In your dreams, maybe.

Note that it is fair in scripture (Genesis 25:33-34, Hebrews 12:16-17).

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Research the subject, "unfair contract".

Google the keywords "peppercorn" and "contract" together.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Where a claim is seen to be contentious, whoever possesses the property has the stronger case.

Note that there is no contention with regard to who came to own the birthright in Genesis 25:33-34, Hebrews 12:16-17.

Indeed, that's what Romans 9:12 means.

Wordkeeper said in post #413:

Besides, the robber doesn't have a contract.

But Jacob and Esau did.

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

The Old Covenant only allowed Israel to be eligible.

Gentiles could become Israel under the Old Covenant (Exodus 12:48).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

The New Covenant did not require a candidate to be from Israel, all nations were eligible.

But Gentile Christians are still grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For even the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

You claimed that Ezekiel 18:19, 20 says a son will suffer for the father’s sin.

Not if the son is obedient to God.

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

We know that we are not responsible for another person’s sin, as a Biblical principle.

We sinned in Adam (Romans 5:19a).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

It could only mean we die because of our own sin, because Adam caused all those who are in him to lose the immunity, from not knowing good from evil, like minors and the insane, and those in Christ live because they gain diplomatic immunity . . .

Even minors and the insane are mortal in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22a).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

Right now, it seems you are saying the Old Covenant believers are not saved because they are not baptised with a Christian baptism.

The requirement of Christian baptism (Mark 16:16) is a requirement of the New Covenant, which did not come into effect until Christ died (Hebrews 9:15-17).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

. . . the text says those who have seen Christ have seen the Father, not His image.

John 14:9 does not mean God the Father Himself (John 1:18), but His image (Colossians 1:15).

For Christ and the Father are two different Persons (John 14:28).

Wordkeeper said in post #414:

So things in the Bible which seem false are figures of speech. Then Genesis 31:10 is also a figure of speech.

No, it was a literal dream.

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #415:

Anything that uses figures of speech should be carefully examined for metaphors that can be mistaken for literal facts. For example the text mentions a country, a city, a metaphor actually meaning a new humanity, in Christ:

[Hebrews 11:13-16]

Hebrews 11:16 refers to the literal, heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-23), which will physically descend from heaven to a New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, after the future Millennium and subsequent events occur on our present earth (Revelation 20:4 to 21:4).

That is, New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus Christ left to prepare a place for the Church (John 14:2). All those in the Church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the Church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant suffering and death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The Church looks for Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and His setting up of the physical aspect of His Kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (of all times) for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. New Jerusalem will not descend from the third heaven to the earth until after the future, New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The Church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

Wordkeeper said in post #415:

. . . Israel heard God at Sinai.

Through angels (Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19).

Also, no one has ever seen God the Father Himself (John 1:18).

*******

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

Proving dreams themselves can’t be seen, they can only be dreamt, imagined, like any other imaginary things, by the dreamer himself.

Not if pictures of the dreams are drawn.

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

If it is mistaken, it is non sensical.

Not necessarily. For example, a woman could mistake her husband's toupee for her wig, because they appeared the same to her in a dim light.

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

[Re: The Bible]

But it would be “Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Greeks”.

Not for the elect (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

Didn’t Paul say that he became a Jew to the Jews and a Gentile to the Gentiles?

When the apostle Paul was among only Jews who mistakenly thought that they were still under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, his merely acting like he also was still under it (1 Corinthians 9:20, Acts 21:26) was to maintain his credibility among those Jews, in the hope that this would give him sufficient continued access to them (cf. Acts 16:3), give him enough more time with them to where he might be able to gradually persuade them to accept his correct point of view (1 Corinthians 9:20), that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished for both Jews and Gentiles on Jesus Christ's Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8).

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

. . . find out what the Greeks say is the problem with the world and you’ll be able to answer them, with proof.

The proof is what the Bible says (John 3:19; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4), not anything else (1 Corinthians 1:17 to 2:16).

Wordkeeper said in post #416:

Note that the Gospels describe the Kingdom of God, union with God, more than how to reach it. Note that the Epistles talk about building up, how to reach the goal of entering the Kingdom, more than about the Kingdom itself.

No, they both sufficiently show both (John 14:6, Romans 14:17).
 
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Note that the theology which has been presented is the Gospel, which works everywhere (Matthew 24:14).



Note that what has been presented is not contradictory, because it is from God's Word the Bible, and He is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).



Not always (Hebrews 12:5-11).



When God's punishment is applied to elect people, there is a sense of helping (Revelation 3:19).

Indeed, the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and chastening, and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).



Ask an inmate at Juvenile Hall if he is being punished or not.

Also, what is the recidivism rate for those sent to Juvenile Hall and later released?



Note that Juvenile Hall involves the restriction of liberties and the protecting of society from harm.



Ask a psychopath in a high security mental institution if he is being punished or not.



How many psychopaths have been cured?



But neither Israel nor Jews have ceased to exist (Acts 22:3, Romans 11:1-5).



Old Covenant Judaism was in control of Jerusalem (Galatians 4:24-25).



Christ will judge us by our works (Romans 2:6-8). For we are not only His family members (John 1:12), but also His willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) (Revelation 1:1).



Of course.

And it was no doubt a good thing for the non-servant Jacob to avoid Esau.



Note that it is fair in scripture (Genesis 25:33-34, Hebrews 12:16-17).



Google the keywords "peppercorn" and "contract" together.



Note that there is no contention with regard to who came to own the birthright in Genesis 25:33-34, Hebrews 12:16-17.

Indeed, that's what Romans 9:12 means.



But Jacob and Esau did.

*******



Gentiles could become Israel under the Old Covenant (Exodus 12:48).



But Gentile Christians are still grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For even the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).



Not if the son is obedient to God.



We sinned in Adam (Romans 5:19a).



Even minors and the insane are mortal in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22a).



The requirement of Christian baptism (Mark 16:16) is a requirement of the New Covenant, which did not come into effect until Christ died (Hebrews 9:15-17).



John 14:9 does not mean God the Father Himself (John 1:18), but His image (Colossians 1:15).

For Christ and the Father are two different Persons (John 14:28).



No, it was a literal dream.

*******



Hebrews 11:16 refers to the literal, heavenly city of New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-23), which will physically descend from heaven to a New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, after the future Millennium and subsequent events occur on our present earth (Revelation 20:4 to 21:4).

That is, New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus Christ left to prepare a place for the Church (John 14:2). All those in the Church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the Church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant suffering and death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The Church looks for Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and His setting up of the physical aspect of His Kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (of all times) for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. New Jerusalem will not descend from the third heaven to the earth until after the future, New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The Church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).



Through angels (Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19).

Also, no one has ever seen God the Father Himself (John 1:18).

*******



Not if pictures of the dreams are drawn.



Not necessarily. For example, a woman could mistake her husband's toupee for her wig, because they appeared the same to her in a dim light.



Not for the elect (1 Corinthians 1:24).



When the apostle Paul was among only Jews who mistakenly thought that they were still under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, his merely acting like he also was still under it (1 Corinthians 9:20, Acts 21:26) was to maintain his credibility among those Jews, in the hope that this would give him sufficient continued access to them (cf. Acts 16:3), give him enough more time with them to where he might be able to gradually persuade them to accept his correct point of view (1 Corinthians 9:20), that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished for both Jews and Gentiles on Jesus Christ's Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 2:11-21, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8).



The proof is what the Bible says (John 3:19; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4), not anything else (1 Corinthians 1:17 to 2:16).



No, they both sufficiently show both (John 14:6, Romans 14:17).
All your replies boil down to saying, “No, it is not”. You don't offer reasoning, like I do so there is no point in continuing, because when you offered reasons, it forced me to work out issues I never explored before. Thanks for that. Without tackling issues, your posts are no longer useful even for that.

For example, I explained that the Holy City is Christ.

The text says that the old covenant believer never received the promise.

The entire Bible describes the effort made to get back what Adam lost, union with God, needed to complete the task of subduing Creation.

The Old Covenant was given to help humanity to believe in Christ when He was sent. It was given to a special people who were kept apart so that they would not be influenced by other people groups and be changed. Israel's traditions were fixed so that she could always be identified and her reactions always predicted.

However when the promise came, the son of the slave woman no longer was useful and was preventing the inheritance from reaching its intended recipient, all nations. Israel had to be sent away, made irrelevant.

So when the text says a rest remains to be entered, it means that New Covenant believers have a spiritual city to enter, which the Old Covenant only pointed at. When we are in Christ, we are in the cleft of the Rock and can be pure and see God, like Moses.

It is only then can we be in union with God and subdue Creation.

If you insist on literal interpretations, then you are missing what is the gift that is available right now, not when you go to heaven.

These things can be understood only by asking for bread, the Holy Spirit, every day.

If you are not going to make an attempt at seeing the principle, never pray for revelation, you will never believe, even if someone comes back from the dead. Israel saw God's miracles and came out of Egypt, but the New Testament is greater than those great works. Israel had Moses and the Fathers, we have even more than that. If they had bread, we have pearls. Use it fruitfully.

So pray.
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #419:

I explained that the Holy City is Christ.

Note that it isn't, for it's a literal city in heaven in which Christ left to prepare a place for Christians (John 14:2).

Wordkeeper said in post #419:

The text says that the old covenant believer never received the promise.

Not until after Christ's resurrection (1 Peter 3:18c-19; 1 Peter 4:6), when He took them up to the city in heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-23).

There are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2). And so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place. For Jesus Christ ascended there in His physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And the apostle Paul said that he could have visited there in his mortal, physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their mortal, physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the future, Two Witnesses will be taken up there in their mortal, physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the third heaven there is currently a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) and a New Heaven (a new first heaven/atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the New Earth to live with Christians on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which Christians ascribe to heaven. So what Christians think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the New Earth.

Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where obedient Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So obedient Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when obedient Christians go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole. Compare the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV. Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Wordkeeper said in post #419:

The Old Covenant was given to help humanity to believe in Christ when He was sent.

The Old Testament perfectly foretold the suffering and death of Christ for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the third day (Acts 26:22-23; 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, Luke 24:44-47). His suffering and death for our sins was foretold in Isaiah 53 (cf. Acts 8:32-35; 1 Peter 2:24). His crucifixion experience was foretold in Psalms 22 (cf. Matthew 27:46,35). His not remaining dead was foretold in Psalms 16:10 (cf. Acts 2:31). His rising from the dead on the third day was foretold in Hosea 6:2 (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:4, Luke 24:46, Colossians 2:12). The fact that Christ's New Covenant Gospel (Matthew 26:28) would go forth to save both Jews and Gentiles was foretold in Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 (cf. Acts 26:23b, Luke 24:47). For some other examples of how Jesus Christ fulfilled Old Testament scriptures at His first coming: He fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:15,18-19 (cf. Acts 3:22-24, Luke 24:44), and Zechariah 9:9 (cf. Matthew 21:4-5), and Psalms 118:22 (cf. Acts 4:11), and Isaiah 9:1-2 (cf. Matthew 4:12-16), and Psalms 110:4 (cf. Hebrews 6:20).

Zechariah 6:11-12 and Zechariah 3:8-10 even showed by type that the Christ, the Messiah, would be a high priest (Hebrews 6:20) named "Joshua", or "Jesus", "Jesus" being the Greek form of the Hebrew name "Joshua" (like how, for example, "Juan" is the Spanish form of the English name "John"). "The Branch" (Zechariah 6:12, Zechariah 3:8) is a title of the Christ (Isaiah 4:2-6, Jeremiah 33:14-17). And where it says: "upon one stone shall be seven eyes" (Zechariah 3:9), this too is fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the stone (1 Peter 2:7), who is at one point symbolically shown as having seven "eyes" (Revelation 5:6). "I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day" (Zechariah 3:9) will be fulfilled at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 4:4-6). And Zechariah 3:10 refers to the subsequent time of the Millennium (Micah 4:4), when the returned Jesus will rule the earth from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-4).

Wordkeeper said in post #419:

. . . when the promise came, the son of the slave woman no longer was useful and was preventing the inheritance from reaching its intended recipient, all nations. Israel had to be sent away, made irrelevant.

Not Israel (Romans 11:1-5), just the Old Covenant (Hebrews 7:18-19).
 
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